Here is the article:

http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/wire/sns-ap-us-stranded-motorists,0,6801317.story

Basically, the couple, driving from Oregon to Reno, followed their SUV's navigation system (GPS) directions and turned onto a (presumably unplowed) Forest Service road, driving for 35 miles until they got stuck in 1.5 feet of snow. On the third day they got enough cell signal to call for help.

How freaking stupid are people? To blindly follow an electronic device's "advise' versus using the Mark1 Eyeball and seeing the road isn't plowed... makes you wonder.

Makes me so glad I don't own a stupid GPS for car use and I learned how to read maps a long time ago.

I'm not overly surprised a couple in their late 60's are unfamiliar with the limits of new technology. But they were at least smart enough to carry emergency supplies in their SUV to see them through.

"The couple was well-equipped for winter travel, carrying food, water and warm clothes, the sheriff said.

"Their statement was, being prepared saved their life," he said."

GPS systems give guidance, not direction. I routinely drive a route contrary to the route provided by the GPS just so I can hear the Garmin Nuvi voice speak that very disappointed, "recalculating"

That was James Kim in the mountains of Oregon. He ended up dying of hypothermia when he attempted to walk out.


In my rural area, trying to go by directions given on Yahoo and Google maps or GPS will often send you down old logging roads - even abandoned roads - that show clearly on maps but no longer exist or are poorly maintained in reality.

In the United States if you are trying to get from City A to City B and you find yourself traveling on a rutted dirt road, you would probably be better off turning around and asking a local for a better route!

Kinda like the Stolpa's only better prepared.



http://www.sierrasun.com/article/20041217/LIFE/112170011/0/FRONTPAGE

Santa put a Garmin Nuvi in my stocking. Quoting from the front page of the "Important Safety and Product Information" instructions included with the unit:

Failure to avoid the following potentially hazardous situations could result in an accident or collision resulting in death or serious injury.
...
When navigating, carefully compare information displayed on the unit to all available navigation sources, including information from street signs, visual sightings, and maps. For safety, always resolve any discrepancies or questions before continuing navigation and defer to posted road signs.
...
Always operate the vehicle ina safe manner. Do not become distracted by the unit while driving, and always be fully aware of all driving conditions.
...
The unit is designed to provide route suggestions. It is not designed to replace the need for driver attentiveness regarding road closures or road conditions, traffic congestion, weather conditions, or other factors that may affect safety while driving.
(emphasis is theirs)

This sounded like "common sense" to me. Apparently not.

This will not be the first time or the last.

http://news.sky.com/skynews/Home/UK-News...200903415248539

The world is full of stupid people.

Although I always wonder how people actually cope with todays technology, considering the huge majority have absolutely no comprehension about how todays modern technology actually works. Do many folks have a witchcraft or magic model of reasoning in their heads to explain the unexplainable?

Perhaps the fellow in the above story could legally argue that his talking GPS had been telling him the truth for the many months he had previously owned his talking GPS navigation system then on that day suddendly began to lie to him for no apparent reason that he could fathom.

One thing that helps a lot with the Nuvi is the traffic receiver. I don't know how it handles seasonal road closures but for rerouting around traffic in metro areas like Los Angeles and warning about delays due to accidents and construction, it's great.

I may contact Garmin to see how it is supposed to deal with seasonal closures. Those may be outside the high traffic areas covered by the traffic receiver so they may not show up as closed. Hmmm

From the article:

"In the town of Silver Lake, the unit told them to turn right on Forest Service Road 28, and they followed that and some spur roads nearly 35 miles before getting stuck in about 1½ feet of snow..."

Maybe I've traveled more than some people, but I don't take forest service roads unless I'm sure that I'm supposed to. And I don't take them in winter. "Forest + Service + Road"... what does that imply?

Like the Sheriff said, "It [GPS] will give you options to pick the shortest route. You certainly get the shortest route. But it may not be a safe route."

At least they had the sense to take useful supplies with them. They did something dumb, but the smart things they did made a definite difference.

Hint: If you're traveling in unfamiliar areas, esp in snow, and there aren't a lot of tire tracks, it's always a good idea to get some advice before you proceed. And if you have to move boulders out of the road (like the Kims did), you are definitely in the wrong place.

Sue

The map is not the terrain.

GPS isn't even a map.

I'm planning my trips to rural regions way ahead of time, using at least 4 sources of road maps and aerial imagery (usually 6-7) for a 5 mile wide corridor along my assumed path, and still don't hesitate to ask locals for brief directions when possible.

The military past, you know...

Sounds like me pre-flighting my route on PC mapping software and then viewing it in google-earth to see the terrain.

I've taken routing advice from locals too.

Folks, when you see snow on the road, ask yourself, "Is this road ever plowed?" If the answer to that is possibly "No", think seriously about finding a place to turn-around.

Everyone has pointed out, correctly IMO, that the basic problem was over reliance on technology.

I don't think the problem is with the use of GPS, though, I think it's a lack of familiarity with driving in the snow. On the road, especially in flat country, 2" of snow looks a lot like 6", which looks a lot like 2'. Someone who has some degree of familiarity knows when they're in a situation they shouldn't be. I don't know if someone who has never driven in snow would realize the problem until it was too late?

The problem also could have been that 1.5' of snow may not have been much but they went down a hill and couldn't turn around and go back, or they got stuck in a valley and couldn't make it up. (I didn't read the article.)

In some places like here forest service roads have road signs and look like normal roads, but also are labeled on smaller signs the forest service digits.

I can see how this could happen very easily... GPS or not, if you are not familiar with an area and go down a road that is nearly impossible to get back out of you cuold be in trouble. My road is one of these roads, and with <1' of snow for almost all cars it would be impossible to get up some of the STEEP south facing switch backs, also with my pickup it's impossible to turn around due to how narrow the road gets when it snows, I have to find a driveway that's been cleared and then work it to turn around.

I think it's easy to judge the mistake and blame the GPS but I can very easily see how this could happen to even those w/out a GPS who make a wrong turn following bad directions and end up stranded.

W/out being there it's hard to say for sure everything behind it.

The turnaround possibility is a good point. When I was a teenager I went fishing in a mine pond. I drove in during daylight, and had to back all the way out, a couple of miles, at night by flashlight. It took a long time. Absolutely nowhere to turn around the truck without getting it hopelessly stuck. After that I always installed or carried a 12v tractor light I could use to see to drive backwards with in every truck I had.

Driving backwards in the snow, especially in a sedan (guessing) would be a huge pain, and in some cars might not be possible without an outside spotter or having your head stuck out the window. I know my current car has lousy visibility to the rear.

Our Scout camp is located in a state forest. Great location, but difficult to find for first-timers due to the winding forest roads.

We have had parents report that their GPS systems have tried to send them down fire roads or horse trails when getting directions. Luckily, no one (that we know of) has followed those directions.

As I recall, the inability to turn around was an element of the James Kim tragedy too. They had printed out Google Maps (I don't think they were following a GPS route) and the map didn't distinguish between service roads and regularly maintained roads. They missed an exit and turned onto a service road thinking it was a usable alternative route, and were looking for a place where they could turn around their vehicle, but eventually got stuck.

It was that event that made me finally see the light regarding the importance of a PLB. I bought one and have carried it every time I head into a remote area. The McMurdo FastFind 210 at $300 is HALF the price of the one I bought.

Huh ... I just looked up the James Kim information on Wiki ... Did you know that 12 years before the Kim tragedy a man died in the same area after getting stuck? He died of starvation.

Also, in the very same year as the Kim tragedy a motor home with a family of six was stranded in snow in that area. They could actually see reports of the search for them on their TV ... including word that the search had been called off. Two of them finally hiked out for help.

It wasn't a GPS with bad directions that caused these people to get stuck. Not in any one of the cases mentioned.

Driving down a road that was impassable for their vehicle was what got them stuck. Even the claim that they could not turn around is ludicrous, there is a reason vehicles have reverse gear.
So tell me how few functioning brain cells a person can have and still appear normal.

This was not the fault of the technology. It was the fault of the people themselves.

I can see getting snowed in by a freak blizzard and needing help, but driving miles down an unplowed road to get stuck is just idiotic.

As I read all of us saying that we don't overly have too much faith in Technology,, I myself have been lead astray by technology.

then again there was a time when maps wern't reliable.

the good news was that they couple were prepaird, as most of us here strive to be.

I am left with the feeling that this couple didn't go "gee the snow is deep on this and looks un traversed. we should go back"

then again perhaps backing out would have been just as disasterous.

Regretably a couple of times I have relaized that I needed to back out and discovered myself in a ditch, and Yes I can drive a car backwards,, I just couldn't see the road well.

Just glad to hear they were prepared and able to get out of the situation on their own, despite the error.

RE Getting stuck in the snow - I can remember it happening with Dad - once, Missed a turnm stuck about 10 ft later - sign was missing, and we were about 600 yds or so from where we were going. We had just gotten the chains on the car when the resorts snowplow showed up saying "Are you the Gallo Gamily?" - they figured we might blow it on that corner - we were out about 2 minutes later - we would have gotten out anyway (hey, we were 10 ft from semi plowed road, and chains, and shovels), but I will say the plow made short order of the job

A GPS is like any other tool. You decide what the tool is going to do. Tools makes no decisions. A hammer is used for pounding and a saw is used for cutting. Likewise a GPS is used to calculate positions and the new ones calculate routes based on whatever bad data they have. We need to be able to tell when the recommendation is flawed.

Do not mindlessly follows GPS directions and you won't have to blame the GPS when you get stuck.

"Did you know that 12 years before the Kim tragedy a man died in the same area after getting stuck? He died of starvation. Also, in the very same year as the Kim tragedy a motor home with a family of six was stranded in snow in that area."

The Stivers family in the motorhome was loaded with supplies. The inlaws were also wanted on felony warrants, which made me wonder if that was an issue in this situation. Once they decided to rescue themselves, they did fine.

The guy that died of starvation, DeWitt Finley, IMO, was the closest thing to suicide that could still be attributed to accidental death or death by misadventure. This case is one that really made me grind my teeth with frustration. This guy got his truck/camper stuck in deep snow, and just sat there. He never made any attempt to try to walk out (18 mi one way, 22 mi the other). Had he even bothered to get out and walk a short distance, he would have discovered that he was stuck in the deepest snow in the area -- he could have hiked out. But no, he sat there and wrote letters to his wife and wrote, "I have no control over my life its all in His Hands. 'His will be done.' Death here in another month or so, or He sends someone to save me".

God also gave him a brain, two hands and two feet, and he failed to use any of them. He had had no food or water with him, and had forgotten to fill the propane tank.

But there were a couple of problems with his waiting to be saved: he had changed his route from the one planned so no one knew where to look; and the forest rangers (two of them) had locked the gates at both ends (one at each end), and lazily hadn't bothered to actually lock one gate and drive the length of the road to the other end to make sure no one was there before they locked the other one.

He got stuck in mid-November, died sometime in mid-January, and his body was found in mid-May. Ironically, when the boys found him in May, his wallet had disappeared, so someone must have found him sooner and 'forgot' to mention it to anyone.

Sue

Because maps are never out of date and are never wrong? Does your map somwhow indicate unplowed roads better than a GPS does? You could just as easily have seen that road on your map and decided it was quicker only to get stuck on the same unplowed road.

The issue isn't the GPS it's not using common sense when starting down an unknown road.

I would like to see the condition of that Forest Service Road where they turned onto it. It might be in good condition there, with no hint it was a bad route, if a county commissioner lives a few blocks that way.

I have no idea what a "Forest Service Road" is. Never seen one; it's possible they hadn't either. Around here we have "Farm to Market" roads and "Ranch Road" designations, which are often major roads near town. I think that all of the major roads in Austin except the Interstate and one US highway also have an FM or RR designation. No particular reason for a city person from here to assume FM or RR means poorly maintained.

It's worth noting they seem to have been well prepared in every other respect, handling three days in those conditions apparently without difficulty, and may have been able to go longer.

Given that they did everything else right I'd hesitate to condemn the decision to turn onto the road with knowing what they saw when they took the GPS' advice.

PS. GPS errors can be more exciting than this. Errors at lakes formed by dams are surprising common. Old roads that existed before the lake & damn often still exist with the same name on either side of the lake, and GPS software generally assumes that if the map data in an area is blank that a road continues uninterrupted if it seems to be in the right place to connect and the name matches ... even if in reality both sides now end in a public boat ramp.

PPS. Another example of technology's helpful suggestions gone awry: I misspelled "condemn" above and my software's spell checker offered a correct spelling of "condom".

Very true and too the point.


Now that is not only a little harsh, but shows poor understanding of the conditions. In reality, once you've started on a narrow road you've essentially passed the point of no return. By the time you realize you've made a mistake it is too late unless you find a convenient spot to turn (which is difficult - the snow covers everyting, hard to see those spots).

Going in reverse in deep snow on a narrow road is very, very difficult. You need speed (= momentum) to traverse challenging spots and going uphill. Too slow and you get stuck. Very few people are good at reversing at 10-15-20 mph. Unless you've done a lot of practice on high speed reverse driving recently this is NOT something you're going to excell at.

I had a very humbling experience trying to challenge a steep, very slippery hill which started just after a sharp curve. After some interesting pirouettes when the car started sliding backwards at the steepest point (FUN! Skidding around in the parking lot finally paid off!) I tried going up the hill in reverse. This is an old trick that maximises the weight on the front wheels (the driving wheels on my car). This trick also involved negotiating the sharp curve at 15 mph in reverse. Came a bit too close to the inner edge - bummer! Stuck! The snow plow pulled us out 20 minutes later.

Forest Service Roads in the PNW vary by condition and size. There are many FSR roads that rival a 2 lane highway in width and are usually kept in better condition then rural gravel roads. It is not uncommon to be able to almost drive the speed limit on some of these roads and not worry about your vehicle falling apart.

This FSR in the photo is not far from where I live and is at an elevation of ~6000 feet. As you can see, the road is in good condition for late fall and is considered an all weather road...but in the winter, it may be all but impassable due to the snow which could blanket the road within hours.

Maps are notoriously incorrect, in certain areas. However, that's not the point in this case.

Let's be real here. Grandma and Grandpa had no business being in the middle of "Who-Flung-Dung" anyhow. They wanted the fastest route said the article. So they blindly followed what a device told them to do. I reckon they did take the "fastest", if fastest = least numbers of miles. But experience tells me that the fastest and the shortest are almost never the same road. Quite frankly, I would have looked at the unplowed road, said no thank you very much and found an alternate that was plowed.

I agree, they over-relied on the GPS. Maybe I am smarter, I learned a while back using Mapquest and the like that quite often the directions will have you going the wrong way on a one way road, or going to where the hotel was spozed to be, not to where it actually is.

So yeah, the hard copy map may be wrong, but at the very least you can see alternatives that the GPS usually can't/won't/isn't designed to give you.

The Garmin GPS units I have can be programmed to show the fastest route or the shortest route. I don't know if they had a Garmin unit and if they did I don't know which option was selected. I'd bet it was shortest distance. No clue how receivers other than Garmin are set up.

The link below shows the area the couple was stuck. If you scroll way over to the right, the town of Paisley is where they probably came from off of highway 31 which runs roughly NW.

Google Map

I have a Magellan Roadmate model #1424 which has the options of Fastest Time, Shortest Distance, Mostly Freeways, Least use of Freeways.

The only thing I'd trust a GPS for routing me to would be something like "The Joe's Crab Shack restaurant in San Diego". And then, only if I were in San Diego to start with. I sometimes use a GPS to suppliment maps when on the highway (predicting time-of-arrival, etc.), but the GPS suppliments the maps, not the other way around. And just like I wouldn't follow a map onto a backwoods snowpacked road, I wouldn't follow a GPS there either.

In the backcountry, for hiking, GPS's can be great for finding out where you are, but again that should suppliment, not replace, your knowledge of determining your position by other means.

Just another link, worth the read IMO, regarding this:

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/tech...article1413965/

Just pulled up the mapsource software that came with my Garmin Nuvi; Nf-2823 is shown as North Creek Rd (when the cursor runs over it) which connects to County Rd 216 which is a short jog over to Hwy 395. So the software does show a route through there but in the article the deputy sheriff calls it a dead end, so there's a disconnect between reality and the software (or the deputy is exaggerating and it's not really a dead-end, just impassable).

Just a thought, but Garmin should send these receivers with the preference defaulted to major highways and shortest time (rather than shortest route). The GPS should never have taken them off Hwy 31. That said,

I think that one thing most people don't realize (most of the average people) is that The way they get road information is by studying arial maps and digitizing the roads. What this means is that there is at some point a person (here comes the human error) is looking at a map trying to determin roads from rivers and horse trails.

The photos are usualy taken during the summer. This creates a contrast that lest the average person determin what is what with relaitive accuracy.

The catch is that if a map says there is a forest road or trail, and the human reading the map sees a line or a dark line on the arial photo they say it is a, "road"

As I read about all of you that study arial maps and study mutiple sources of maps, and even ask locals, I just feel like my prepairedness needs to take another step up! I am impressed and I have to say that is what I like about this site,, You all chalenge and teach me new things, and I don't get lazy.

"The GPS made me do it! The GPS made me do it!" Some people are just too stupid for words.

They have a 4x4 truck and a GPS. They can go anywhere, right?

Driving 31 or 395 in winter is serious business in central
Oregon. Wind chills in the dangerous zone are common, and there is very limited traffic or emergency services. They should be better prepared for getting un-stuck even if they
stayed on the highway.

Greenhouse people.

I disagree. Their truck got stuck and they had to be pulled out, but that's it. They were fully prepared and able to wait three days in freezing weather, and we don't know how long they could have waited. They had a plan B and it worked. That's not a sign of "greenhouse people".

The overhead aerial maps of Paisley OR show that in Paisley the turn they probably made was onto a broad, paved road, as wide as any other. It's not called a Forest Service at that point and it appears to be paved for about a mile.

I'm not sure if they saw anything at that turn that should have stopped them. The GPS software says turn here, the road looks as good as the highway, etc. The error is later when it should have been clear the road had become way too narrow and unpaved...

Lesson: Google Earth is your friend and it's free. I don't go anywhere new, even in town, without looking over aerial pictures of the entire route. The car's GPS gives me an arrival time estimate but I know where I'm going before I get in the car.

I don't see the plan B unless it was the cell phone.

They were lucky, they managed to get cell coverage and the weather
was good. No cell coverage, sub zero temperatures and high winds they could have ended up like the Stolpa's or worse the Kim's.

At one time there was only 1 LEO for the whole county. That is
one of the most remote areas of the country and they had to drive
on unpaved roads up into a mountain range to get to the spot they were stuck.

http://apod.nasa.gov/apod/image/0011/earthlights2_dmsp_big.jpg

See the upper left black spot in the USA? That is where they
were.

Not having a shovel and chains is not being prepared for winter
driving there. Leaving the pavement with only one mode of
transportation in those conditions is foolish.

“We thought it was strange,... But then we just figured it knew something we didn't.”

"They turned right onto a country road, passing a sign that warned drivers the route was not maintained during the winter. They drove about 40 kilometres without seeing another car, house or sign of civilization. And that's when they got stuck."

They drove 25 miles in snow without seeing any signs of civilization and thought this was a good road??? I knew better than that on my first road trip at the age of 19.

Voltaire was right: "Common sense is not that common".

Sue

I bet this was playing on the radio in the background.

Yeah....

Plan B was having several days of food and water, and a way to survive freezing temperatures for days.

I tend evaluate these things in terms of "did they assume things would go right?" This is not usual idiot case since they did _not_ plan for everything to go right - they had food, water, etc, in case something went wrong.


It was a good road for less than a mile. I can't tell from the aerial picture if it's still paved after that but it is narrower. I can't tell where the warning sign is or where the first "Forest Service Road" designation is.

But within a few miles after that it clearly narrows down to not much more than a one-lane path, crowded by trees. They're got to have traveled 20+ miles with the *trees* telling them this is wrong, even if they can't see ground boundaries because of snow-cover.

Another thing is that the aerial photos show that there are many such roads in the area intersecting each other. Even if they decide to turn around and can't right there, an intersection is likely within 3-5 miles. They aren't much, but it's enough room to turn around.

I don't fault them for turning onto this road because it looked like a main road where they turned. And they might have missed the sign (given the condition of the road, I doubt much more effort goes into signage). But certainly within 5 miles it got to be obvious this is a one-lane dirt path, not a small county road between towns.

Something to remember is that since a Garmin Nuvi is just a computer that derives its recommendations from an algorithm, if you have it set up for shortest route and it finds a route that is shorter by just a little bit, it will make that recommendation. Mine has a detour function which directs the GPS to find a plan B. Compare the first recommendation to the second and you may find that staying on a main road only costs a mile or two over a great distance -- stay on the main road or at least know why you are leaving a main road. Saving a minute or two off a long trip just isn't worth the security of a main road.

I do the same thing using GoogleEarth combined with the Garmin/Mapsource software. Mapsource makes this easy by providing a "View in Google Earth" function. Compare multiple sources and look at the date of the source you're using -- things change.

This is more towards urban errands, but I have an app on my iPhone called 'AroundMe'. Get free app for finding a home or business. In any regards, I have to be careful to make sure it is on the auto feature because it also has a walking feature. This walking feature avoids freeways and generally takes a more direct approach, 'as the crow flys'.

This hasn't much to do with this thread but its critical when using any technology that the settings are correct.

Apparently they weren't the only ones, lately:

"GPS-led travel goes amiss; 3 Ore. parties rescued"

http://www.newstimes.com/news/article/GPS-led-travel-goes-amiss-3-Ore-parties-rescued-305849.php

Snippet:
"The most common advice was high in "duh" content:
"You can't follow GPS blindly," said Hyde of the national AAA."

The issue here is the limitation of the current GIS technology. Each "path" is just a segment that has attributes. Unfortunately, you're pretty much limited to "dirt road", "two-lane", "four-lane", "four lane divided", etc. You might have other info like speed limit, but you don't have truly useful attributes like: maximum safe speed in dry conditions and level of service. It's really useful when you can get the real-time updates, but even most states don't have a computerized automated way to disburse their road closings. Most have a "state warning point" where they get calls about road closures, but I don't believe most have a way to present that information to everyone.

Plain and simple, I think this is the first experience that many folks have had with detailed maps. Most people are used to picking up a road altas at wally world and going wherever they like. Most unmaintained roads weren't documented on the ole road altas so most navigators didn't have to apply much of a filter.

I wish Google Maps would add the display of 24K USGS topo maps. That would provide people planning a trip with a LOT more information about the kinds of roads involved, though good paper maps should mark limited-use roads.

I currently use Geobuddy (the "brother" of Expert GPS with added geocache-tracking features) to view topo maps on-line. Here are their respective web sites if you're interested (I have no connection to the makers):

http://www.geobuddy.com - $59.95
http://www.expertgps.com - $59.95

We have a large (very large) segment of our population who expects to be rescued from flat tires, wrong orders at McDonalds, making the decisions to smoke and drive while drunk, etc. And now these same people have access to a GPS.

Sigh.

We ain't seen nuthin' yet!

Sue

Here is the latest article from local paper

http://www.heraldandnews.com/articles/2010/01/01/breaking/doc4b3e79f5aacd8206739564.txt

outlines a few other folks that basically did the same thing (blindly following the GPS).

Welcome Lazy Joe.
Good article and I liked where Evinger points out that people used to get lost with paper maps too.
The hints on how to travel a bit safer are worth reading again.

Yes, Sheriff Evinger (Klamath Co) is pretty well versed in SAR related areas..along with Sheriff Winters (Jackson Co) in the neighboring county.

We've seen alot of orgainziational improvements since the KIM family search... very nice...these two folks have been pretty much leading the charge (along with the Clackamas Co and Hood River Co Sheriffs).

Another article on the couple with the baby.

"The couple had made the trip “many, many times,” and were so confident they failed to dress for the weather. The adults wore only jeans, T-shirts and hooded sweatshirts. They left warm jackets at their apartment in Lebanon. Lexi had a few changes of clothes and one 6-ounce bottle of milk... the couple learned to 'not blindly trust navigation systems. Check it out. The next time, we’re going to take a shovel, clothes and food.'"

They're lucky to have a 'next time', and with a baby, yet!

A little thinking would have prevented the whole problem.

Sue

...t-shirts and hooded (no doubt cotton) sweatshirts -- in winter.

Crimeny, I hope those folks and everyone who read about their close call, learned something about being prepared.

It's wicked cold here today -- windy (NWS warnings of gusts of 40-50 mph) and in the 20s when a friend and I hiked this morning.

We wore many layers and still had to keep moving to stay warm. We were talking about how the car would quickly become an icebox if it broke down.

She resolved to put her expedition-weight sleeping bag in her car. I already have a zero-degree bag in mine, along with extra jacket, fleece, etc.

Have any movies been made about such a scenario such as what happened to the Kim family?

Seems ripe for an independent film.

At risk of incurring disdain, I don't see anything wrong with that in itself.
We've got snow on the ground here and I'll be going out tomorrow wearing jeans, T-shirt and a hoodie - all of them cotton.
Apart from a few feet from my front door to my car and a few yards from my car to the church, I'll be indoors or in the car the whole time - warm and dry. If it's raining/snowing or looks like it might, I'll wear or carry my Goretex anorak. There's also a waterproof jacket in my car if conditions change while I'm out.

I really hate artificial fibres for everyday use and don't particularly like wool either. So cotton is my default choice for indoor/urban activities. I have a couple of pure wool sweaters for those times I need to spend long hours in an unheated building. Polyfleece is kept for outdoorsy stuff and emergencies.

I don't think wearing cotton clothes for a journey is a problem at all (assuming you're warm enough like that).
The problem comes with not being prepared for finding yourself NOT in the warm, dry situation expected.
Given that my car has a blanket, a shovel, maps, etc. and that I'll throw my winter journey pack*, a sleeping bag and my winter coat in the boot before I go anywhere, I think I'll be OK if things don't go quite as planned. I'll also throw in a pair of hiking boots (if I'm not wearing them), a pair of ice grips and a flask of hot water.

(* A daypack which includes extra food, a polyfleece jacket, extra hat/scarf/gloves and a bunch of other potentially useful stuff.
That stuff is in a rucksack rather than in my car so I can take it with me whichever car I'm in. It lives in the hallway along with a sleeping bag (in a stuff sack) and I grab them on my way out every time I'm traveling by car in winter conditions.)


Incidentally I don't have GPS in my car and am rather distrustful of it in my partner's car. There's a road atlas in each car and street maps of several counties in mine. We often ignore the GPS (we disagree with its directions on a regular basis), though we do use it quite a lot even on routes we know extremely well (to get an ETA or just to see how its ideas differ from ours). It seems to be most useful when finding our way to a particular place once we reach the relevant town and for when the in-laws phone and want to know how far away we are ("the car says we'll be with you at 20 past" seems to go down better than "we're on the A1234 and we'll see you soon") - the rest of the time it's just nice to have as a hands-free map on display.
When going to unfamiliar places, I plan routes ahead of time and print off maps, directions and alternative routes.

I'll have to admit that while driving from our home in the Chicago area to our new property in northern Wisconsin we've come to really enjoy using our Garmin Automotive GPS, and we do rely on it more often than not since we don't know the roads around the property very well yet.

We do quite a bit of "cold" driving from place to place to investigate the area, and we use the GPS to give us a route and to keep track of where we are, along with my navigator (wife) tracking our location on a street map.

When it recommends turning, we'll generally follow its directions if it seems reasonable (we won't drive into any lakes or private driveways). Still, there is a big difference between turning on to unfamiliar roads in northern WI without snow - and with snow. I simply wouldn't drive on to any unknown and unmaintained (unplowed) road.

Hi Tag, I agree that there's nothing wrong with those items for casual travel, provided you have "Plan B" ready to go with appropriate gear for the worst conditions you can expect.

I'm encouraged to see that the guy was "embarrassed" at his lack of preparation. Maybe he'll use the second chance to good effect.

this is the foggiest thread by far, half the posters don't even know they're discussing the wrong couple

True -- two couples both in Oregon just a few days apart. The first was an older couple on their way home to Reno NV who followed their GPS onto a Forest Service Rd (passing a "road not maintained" sign) and the second couple (w/ an infant) actually knew the way but followed the GPS anyway thinking it knew something they didn't and they could maybe shave a few minutes. Two examples of the same problem. The older couple actually were prepared to stay and did okay for a few days. The younger couple are the ones who started dying after one night and videotaped their eulogies (my impression from the news account).

The first rule of avoiding wilderness emergencies is to not get lost (stay found). Unfortunately,both of these couples knew exactly where they were located (and they went there regardless).

Edit: There's a third group too, but they self rescued. Story on all three groups at GPS-led travel goes amiss; 3 Ore. parties rescued

Whoops, I may have contributed to thread fog. Should have used my GPS.

There's no problem with wearing cotton. There's no problem wearing cotton jeans, cotton t-shirts and cotton hoodies... unless that's ALL you've got. That was the stupid part.

Cotton does absorb moisture from your body and the atmosphere, even just in a house. That fact alone will contribute to hypothermia.

But dumb and ignorant also contribute a lot to hypothermia...

Sue

If that's all you have on a road trip in winter in the Pacific Northwest, and you get stranded for any reason, it's potentially a big problem.

Oregon is twice as big as England and has 1/30th the population density. 70% of Oregon's population is in one sliver of the state (Willamette Valley). You can walk a long way, you can drive a long way, and not find help. So it's prudent in remote parts of Oregon, especially in winter, to take steps to avoid freezing to death when the car engine stops running and you lose the heater.

I love cotton and live in the more temperate and densely populated mid-Atlantic, but all year long I have a warmer jacket (windproof/waterproof), gloves and fleece accessories in the car because even here in the mountains in July where we often camp, its usually in the 50s at night, sometimes the 40s. That's 3700-foot elevation.

In winter, here or Oregon (where I am from - the Columbia Gorge), I'd not be driving far with just a t-shirt and hooded cotton sweatshirt.

I have limited faith in weather forecasts so am always prepared for rain and cold if going any distance from home. I watch the weather forecasts rather closely since we do a lot of outdoor activities. Rarely does the forecast state that there's a ZERO chance of rain. Seems 10% chance is as good as it gets.

Gloves, neck gaiter, warm hat, ear muffs, balacava -- these things take so little room and they're easy to keep in the car every day of the year. Throw in a waterproof parka.

They will greatly increase comfort if stranded in less than optimal weather.

Confession time: I wear cotton too AND I have a Garmin Nuvi. But I know the limits of that GPS and it doesn't bother me to hear the sweet but animated voice say, "recalculating" as I disregard the route it has selected and instead continue the way I know. Too many traffic lights that way and the construction zones suck.

There are lots of things the Nuvi does well, but it doesn't necessarily "know more". Thinking the little box on your dashboard knows your car won't get stuck in the snow ahead can get you killed. GPS units have their limits and so does cotton.

Cotton is very comfortable when you're out of the rain and the temps are good, but when it gets wet and the temps go south cotton can be a killer. But I still wear cotton. I also wear wool and cool-max and polyester fleece. They all have their place and some are better than others at times; at other times they reverse and the others are better.

Wool socks are good all year

Not Google Maps, but Google Earth:

http://www.usgsquads.com/mapfinder.html#MapFinder_for_Google_Earth

Click on the green download button for the DDS MapFinder. I use this all the time when researching old roads and stuff. When this layer is active, it will automatically update the topo that best fits. Think of it as TerraServer meets Google Earth.

Don't forget, you can get directions in Google Earth now too!


And one more useful thing to some on here...

A free interface for the National Geodetic Survey benchmarks:

http://www.metzgerwillard.us/Setup.aspx ( instructions on how to use are here: http://www.metzgerwillard.us/NGSCS.html )

Basically with the 2nd one, open Google Earth, then go to this page and select how you want to do a search. I usually do a radius search (max is 10 miles). It automatically gets from Google Earth the center point of your screen. This application does not auto update, and there is a limit of 3000 returned stations. Click on a marker, and then click on the link (at the top of the bubble) for marker information. The most interesting would probably be the description on how to find it. Can reveal history of an area.

ki4buc,

Thanks!! That is awesome. I'll try it.