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#191908 - 12/27/09 05:35 AM Re: New Desktop Time Again [Re: Desperado]
UpstateTom Offline
Member

Registered: 10/05/09
Posts: 165
Loc: Rens. County, NY
disclaimer: My day job is in a government IT group that supports about 200 mixed servers (Unix, Linux, Microsoft) and about 4000 desktops and laptops (Windows). I used to spec the Microsoft servers. My opinions are my own.

background: We used to use Dell servers, 2400 series, and switched after the 2500 series was introduced because their RAID system was unreliable in our experience. The Dell 240 desktops were much more reliable, and we used them as servers where we didn't need raid. I built a Citrix farm out of them, about 25-30 servers. The Dell reps were surprised to see this, to say the least. On our next run of servers we purchased HP DL360's and 380's, which have been great for us. Dell support is uniformly lousy, IMO.

opinion: For all the vendors, product life cycles are very short, so testing time is short. There are models of computers by any manufacturer that have problems. For Dell 380's, it's bad DVD/CD drives. For a newly released model, nobody, included the manufacturer, knows how reliable it's going to be. Service at the consumer level sucks. It probably has to suck, because too many consumers have no clue of how to operate a computer, and the manufacturers are stuck fielding thousands of calls that have nothing to do with a problem in the hardware. The better their support is, the more calls they would get (conjecture).

suggestion 1: Buy a name brand pc with the most memory and slowest Intel processor you can find in their entry level line. The faster the processor, the more the heat, the more heat the more stress and reduced lifetime on everything. You won't notice a 50% improvement in CPU speed unless you're playing intense video games or doing multi-hour calculations. Every version of Windows ever written needs large amounts of memory.

suggestion 2: Buy a refurbished name brand business computer. Dell Optiplex's are what we use, and they've been very reliable for us. The parts in these business machines, IMO, aren't any better than those in a consumer PC. The benefit for the business is remote management and diagnostics, and theoretically faster repair because of modular design. A probable benefit is that they have a longer product cycle, and are more reliable because of that.

Best of luck with whatever you choose.






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#191910 - 12/27/09 05:59 AM Re: New Desktop Time Again [Re: Doug_Ritter]
JohnN Offline
Old Hand

Registered: 10/10/01
Posts: 966
Loc: Seattle, WA
Originally Posted By: Doug_Ritter
Originally Posted By: JohnN

If the former, I suggest you stick with Dell and buy their 4 year extended warranty and get all your hardware through them.
[...]
Basically, they'll send someone out, replace bad parts. Don't expect them to make your software work or deal with the backups -- just leave you with working hardware. Then, you restore your disaster recovery disc, restore backups, and you are on your way.

Unfortunately, it doesn't always work that way because I can assure you that the folks they contract to run the gamut from good to worse that incompetent. I won't bore you with the disaster, other than to say Dell won't win any awards from me.


Nor will anyone. There are a number of factors, but the reality is PCs aren't really built for reliability nor reasonable failure diagnosis.

I'm not saying you didn't have a poor experience with Dell, I'm sure you did. But my point here is the whole affair is going to be rather hit or miss, regardless of who you buy from.

Note, the Best Buy idea noted above is probably OK as well.

Quote:
Quote:
4) Instead of using a RAID card, consider a Drobo external storage device:

Got real excited about Drobo a few months back, did my research and discovered a LOT of continuing horror stories of total data loss and zero customer service. When it works as advertised, its' great. When it doesn't you are thoroughly screwed.


While I get what you are saying, make sure you don't COUNT on your RAID-type device to always work. You should always be in a situation where you can get a replacement device and restore backups.

Also note there are hardware failures, but there are also data corruption failures which a RAID-type device won't help with.

Backups are the watch word.

On the topic of backups, note that you should not back up to a single external hard drive. If you have a failure of your primary storage device, all of a sudden, you are one drive failure away from losing everything.

Likewise, don't trust your only backups to the cloud.

Oh, and VERIFY your backups.

Quote:

Currently looking as unRAID as a possible solution. Similar concept, perhaps better implementation. Could start off by re-purposing my existing computer as an unRAID server. Just started researching it.


Cool, I'll have to take a look at that.

Quote:
Quote:
9) Install the absolute minimal amount of software possible.

<g> Easier said than done. I do a lot of different things, many of which require somewhat specialty software. Just the nature of what I do.


If some of this software is simply for test or review purposes, consider getting another copy of Windows (perhaps you already have a now unused copy of XP lying around) and installing it in Virtualbox (it's free, and it's good):

http://www.virtualbox.org/

Get it updated and set up, then take a snapshot. You can then install your software, and roll back to the pre-installed state.

-john


Edited by JohnN (12/27/09 06:50 AM)

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#191911 - 12/27/09 06:28 AM Re: New Desktop Time Again [Re: Mark_M]
JohnN Offline
Old Hand

Registered: 10/10/01
Posts: 966
Loc: Seattle, WA
Am_Fear_Liath_Mor,

Note while in theory you should be correct about the possible MTBF advantage of SSDs, I've seen a disproportionate number have early mortality issues. And this is with Intel drives. Who knows what you get with the off-brands. Also note another little gotcha with the Intel drives. They are re-seller only, so you can't RMA them directly to Intel -- you have to go through whomever you purchased them from. PITA.

Originally Posted By: Mark_M
Some quick hints:
[*]RAID-1 reduces performance by requiring two operations for every write, but can slightly improve read performance. Using a hardware RAID controller with on-board memory can offset this performance loss.


Sorry Mark, don't mean to pick on you, but this raises an issue I want to point out:

RAID-1 need not perform any worse than a single drive. Drives can be synchronized and write to both drives concurrently.

Which leads me to my point. RAID implementations vary HIGHLY with each implementation. Some are pretty good, most medium poor, and some downright horrible.

Quote:

[*]In my experience, systems with software RAID are more likely to experience failures than systems with no RAID. I'm not sure why this is, but I believe it has something to do with bad software drivers and timing issues.


I haven't observed this, however this does remind me that there is another interesting characteristic people forget about when using RAID:

If you are using a hardware RAID solution, if that controller goes bad, you need to replace it with the same model if you intend to keep using your disks. This can be a factor if you want to run out to a store and pick a replacement so you can get back online that evening.

Software RAID, does tie you to the OS, but you can go get whatever random controller or hard drive that happens to be available.

On the other hand, I don't think too highly of Window's software RAID. *shrug* Tradeoffs.

Quote:

[*]SAS (Serial-attached-SCSI) drives will provide much better performance than IDE, but again, are expensive.


Keep in mind that SATA transfer speeds outstrip the data rate a typical hard drive can supply. Since SATA, unlike PATA uses one controller per drive, typically there is no *performance* advantage over SAS.

Quote:

[*]Avoid drives slower than 7500 RPM. Stick with 10K or 15K drives if you can afford them.


FWIW, you typically pay a significant premium for 10K/15K drives, which can typically be made up by using multiples of the 7.5K RPM disks. And usually more spindles is better.

When purchasing hard drives, note warranty length, and if the drive is intended for constant use (enterprise drives) -- it seems to be a trend drive mfgs now assume you will NOT use your HDD 7x24. Also, try to pick drives that support NCQ (native command queuing).

That said, drives are pretty hit or miss in terms of reliability these days. There is just too much consumer pressure to provide a $100 7.5K RPM 1TB HDD.

We get what we pay for, I guess.

-john


Edited by JohnN (12/27/09 06:52 AM)

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#191913 - 12/27/09 06:43 AM Re: New Desktop Time Again [Re: James_Van_Artsdalen]
JohnN Offline
Old Hand

Registered: 10/10/01
Posts: 966
Loc: Seattle, WA
Originally Posted By: James_Van_Artsdalen

Skip RAID get a big NAS (2x or 4x the size of the computer storage)


Note that while NAS would probably increase the supportability and as a result, probably the reliability of the system, most NAS systems (SMB/CIFS) are going to be considerably slower than locally attached storage (network file system vs. local file system).

Normally, I would say this isn't a big deal, but if he is doing video editing, I'd venture it probably wouldn't be a good move.

In fact, as others have pointed out, for video, probably want to stick with RAID 0 or 1+0 (stripe of mirrors), or have a dedicated scratch space for in progress work which could be a single drive, or RAID 1.

-john

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#191918 - 12/27/09 07:42 AM Re: New Desktop Time Again [Re: UpstateTom]
Todd W Offline
Product Tester
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 11/14/04
Posts: 1928
Loc: Mountains of CA
Originally Posted By: UpstateTom
disclaimer: My day job is in a government IT group that supports about 200 mixed servers (Unix, Linux, Microsoft) and about 4000 desktops and laptops (Windows). I used to spec the Microsoft servers. My opinions are my own.

background: We used to use Dell servers, 2400 series, and switched after the 2500 series was introduced because their RAID system was unreliable in our experience. The Dell 240 desktops were much more reliable, and we used them as servers where we didn't need raid. I built a Citrix farm out of them, about 25-30 servers. The Dell reps were surprised to see this, to say the least. On our next run of servers we purchased HP DL360's and 380's, which have been great for us. Dell support is uniformly lousy, IMO.

opinion: For all the vendors, product life cycles are very short, so testing time is short. There are models of computers by any manufacturer that have problems. For Dell 380's, it's bad DVD/CD drives. For a newly released model, nobody, included the manufacturer, knows how reliable it's going to be. Service at the consumer level sucks. It probably has to suck, because too many consumers have no clue of how to operate a computer, and the manufacturers are stuck fielding thousands of calls that have nothing to do with a problem in the hardware. The better their support is, the more calls they would get (conjecture).

suggestion 1: Buy a name brand pc with the most memory and slowest Intel processor you can find in their entry level line. The faster the processor, the more the heat, the more heat the more stress and reduced lifetime on everything. You won't notice a 50% improvement in CPU speed unless you're playing intense video games or doing multi-hour calculations. Every version of Windows ever written needs large amounts of memory.

suggestion 2: Buy a refurbished name brand business computer. Dell Optiplex's are what we use, and they've been very reliable for us. The parts in these business machines, IMO, aren't any better than those in a consumer PC. The benefit for the business is remote management and diagnostics, and theoretically faster repair because of modular design. A probable benefit is that they have a longer product cycle, and are more reliable because of that.

Best of luck with whatever you choose.







He wants to do video editing!!!

A 50% slower CPU or a single core instead of a dual or dual instead of a quad is night and day difference in video editing!!!

I have over 15 years experience building, repairing and maintaining custom systems. I can tell you w/out a doubt home built with quality parts out last any consumer level system. Go with amazon or newegg and any warranty on components is super easy.

Enterprise level and high-end workstation systems will last longer than home consumer system but you will pay $$.


I like internal RAID + external backup so you can take your external when you leave to make sure yo have a copy always with you! And if you have broadband you can even backup to your webserver or use a backup service too. smile

_________________________
Self Sufficient Home - Our journey to self sufficiency.

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#191919 - 12/27/09 08:22 AM Re: New Desktop Time Again [Re: Todd W]
UpstateTom Offline
Member

Registered: 10/05/09
Posts: 165
Loc: Rens. County, NY
Originally Posted By: Todd W


He wants to do video editing!!!

A 50% slower CPU or a single core instead of a dual or dual instead of a quad is night and day difference in video editing!!!


With all due respect, video editing on a PC platform was pretty tough in the early to mid 90's. These days it shouldn't be a big deal. You want fast drives, a good video card, and plenty of memory. CPU shouldn't be a big deal. The people pushing for the greatest and fastest are the people making a living designing, building, and selling PC's and processors, and writing about the same, or those writing really lousy software.

PC's are a commodity, and a disposable one at that. They're just a tool.

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#191928 - 12/27/09 02:11 PM Re: New Desktop Time Again [Re: UpstateTom]
Desperado Offline
Veteran

Registered: 11/01/08
Posts: 1530
Loc: DFW, Texas
Gee, all my kids had to do was load the software....

MAC
_________________________
I do the things that I must, and really regret, are unfortunately necessary.

RIP OBG

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#191931 - 12/27/09 02:44 PM Re: New Desktop Time Again [Re: Desperado]
Doug_Ritter Offline

Pooh-Bah

Registered: 01/28/01
Posts: 2207
Thanks for everyone's suggestions. I think the horse is dead, so I'll close this thread.
_________________________
Doug Ritter
Editor
Equipped To SurviveŽ
Chairman & Executive Director
Equipped To Survive Foundation
www.KnifeRights.org
www.DougRitter.com

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