That's a non sequitur and ludicrous.

Apparently we're talking past each other.

Fundamentally, I don't think SAR expense in this country is something to get upset about or bother sticking individuals and families with.

And I'd bet that a majority of Oregonians would gladly kick in a quarter if it would make the difference in getting that young woman and her climbing partner off that mountain, alive.

The costs involved in S&R are greatly reduced if you can minimize the "S". With a good PLB GPS location, manpower and flight hour requirements can be reduced but more importantly lives can be saved. But this requires the rescue-ees to cooperate with potential rescuers and actually carry a GPS enabled PLB. Without that cooperation, I start to edge over to Susan's side of the discussion.

I don't know how things are in Oregon, but many States are having serious budget issues and while no one wants to cut S&R budgets, what are we getting for those dollars? Dagny's idea that helo flight hours can be written off as training only goes so far; training budgets are limited. Flight hours run in the thousands of dollars per hour, while a PLB costs a few hundred and is good for years.

A PLB can minimize search requirements within its limitations, but the alternative is what we're seeing on Mt Hood. With a GPS fix you can fly a team in to do a localized ground search -- a 100' CEP is much better than "somewhere above 9000' on the west side". Rather than "we're waiting for a break in the weather so we can start an air search", it could be, "we're waiting for a break in the weather so we can fly a team in and pull them off the mountain".

That about sums it up for me. If the only break in the weather is spent on (unsuccessful) search when it could used for rescue, everyone loses. Days later -- we're still here and they are still on Mt Hood.

Where my team operates, SAR has just started to get some government help, although we've been around for much longer. They began supplying volunteer teams with a given quantity of helmets w/mounted flashlight and custom-made orange SAR vests.

However, many people complain about the helmets : they are too heavy and overbuilt, as if they were made for urban rescue rather than wilderness SAR (which I agree). They come with "integrated" goggles, which are basically SWAT-type ballistic goggles... But hey, can we be fussy and spit on $300+ helmets that are supplied freely to all of us?

As for the vests, they're fine and will become mandatory, but what about these volunteers that invested their hard-earned money in custom cover-alls or vests? It never ends...

I think government should fund basic expenses (gas and lunch), and provide radios which operate on a few specific freqencies for SAR missions, and that's it.

Sorry, I didn't mend to hijack the thread. It appears that even though you take every precaution in the world when attempting things such as climbing Mt Hood, these accidents will always happen, regardless of what equipment you have available.

"taxpayer funded" and "user billed" are not mutually exclusive.

Ambulance service here is funded by the County Medical District - it's one of the property taxes. However, the patient is also billed about $500 (as of 3 years ago) per trip.

(I know fire and police are taxpayer funded but don't know if either ever bill users for services - I've never had to call on either)

The search is over (suspended).


http://www.oregonlive.com/news/index.ssf/2009/12/day_five_on_mount_hood_heavy_s.html

Clackamas County Sheriff Craig Roberts has announced that rescuers are suspending the search on Mount Hood for two missing climbers.

"Weather has not been on our side and weather is just getting worse," he said. "Unfortunately," he continued, his voice wavering, "it wasn't to be."

He and family members discussed the decision to stop the five-day-long search for Katie Nolan, 29, of Southeast Portland, and Anthony Vietti, 25, of Longview, Wash.

A sad situation indeed. Not the ending we were all hoping for. Our only consolation is the lessons learned and discussion generated by this event. Hopefully the lessons learned will not soon be forgotten.



I believe this depends on if it is a paid or volunteer fire department. Here the city fire department is paid (not volunteer) and taxpayer funded. In the surrounding area the fire departments are volunteer and funded by fire dues, fundraisers and other donations. All are able to take advantage of any grant money available. The volunteer fire departments will charge a fee for responding to a fire if you don't pay your annual fire dues. I am not sure if the city fire department also charges a fee. Many homeowners insurance companies in the state also have a coverage available to cover the cost of the fire department's charge. Our ambulance services also charge but most health insurance will cover that. Our ambulance services are a mixed bag, some run by individuals for profit, some run by a local non-profit hospital, and the ones run by the city fire department that are taxpayer funded. All of them bill insurance for services provided. Is it the same elsewhere? Perhaps the future of S & R services would be a similar charge paid by insurance via an optional (or mandatory) endorsement to insurance. That is in the event it is not all volunteer or able to be written off as training.

Some might be interested in a release by Portland Mountain Rescue, a SAR organization who actually responds to incidents on Mt Hood, and elsewhere in Clackamas County. It contains a statement on the advisability of carrying mountain locator units, and why the public should NOT be charged for rescue services. Argue against their stated postitions if you want, but there is generally more good sense in their press release than I am hearing in this thread right now.

http://www.pmru.org/pressroom/headlines/20091213PMRStatementRegardingMissions.html

I have known 3 climbers who died doing what they loved, before the interwebs and web forums, and I think of them every time one of these threads gets started, and people start speculating and pontificating, and how they would laugh at what people do with their time and thoughts. Willi, Erich, Steve - here they go again...

We can discuss and pontificate, its what we do in this forum - its just that in this thread about the Mt Hood climbers, it seems to me to be in very bad taste to do it about their experiences, which we really don't know very much about.

My sympathies are for the climbers, their families and friends, now at a very tough time. And I am grateful to SAR and mountain rescue, who had to make a terrible decision not to search this week. Everyone did their best, but they were up against it. Sometimes the mountain wins.

I agree with you. Just possibly their press release make sense because it comes from people familiar and experienced with the area and with the conduct of operations therin.

Considering reasons 1. and 2. of the PR for not mandating -- both should be handled through education and training. Any proposed legislation could stipulate that carrying an MLU or a PLB does not entitle the rescuee to immediate rescue. It allows the rescuee to be rescued when it is safe to do so (it is not an entitlement). (Carrying a beacon and hiking into a winter storm on Mt Hood entitles the person carrying the beacon to have their body recovered if they activate it and thus give their family closure.)

As for reason 3, that seems to be a personal problem for the individual who risks his/her life to avoid a small fine -- literally a Life or Death Decision over a couple of bucks, life is all about choices and free will.

My opinion.

Thanks for the article Lono.
I did get a bit out of it.
I seldom bother to comment on threads like this much anymore.
I find threads about incidents usually devolve into people pontificating about their ideology instead of actually discussing the event and what might be done to prevent it being so bad the next time.

Mountain weather is not predictable and sometimes being just a few hundreds of feet up a mountain makes you as hard to reach as if you were on the moon when a storm comes in.

While I hope for the best for the two young folks who are still stuck out there I will take the time now to extend sympathy if they have become part of the mountain.