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#189713 - 12/02/09 05:15 AM Re: Toilet paper. [Re: Susan]
CANOEDOGS Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 02/03/07
Posts: 1853
Loc: MINNESOTA
the best advice i got on the subject of disposal was from a Forest Ranger in Canada.he said just put a good size rock on it.this is wet forest country with heavy winter snow.i tried that on a spring canoe trip and was back in the same camp that fall and of course had to check it out..yes,you would never know...having real TP is a major morale booster which is why you will find a pack in MRE's and some,if not all,military food packs.


Edited by CANOEDOGS (12/02/09 05:16 AM)

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#189740 - 12/02/09 05:17 PM Re: Toilet paper. [Re: CANOEDOGS]
Susan Offline
Geezer

Registered: 01/21/04
Posts: 5163
Loc: W. WA
That put-a-rock-on-it idea is excellent. I've noticed in my garden when I use cardboard mulch (even 6-ply) and hold it in place with rocks or bricks, those spots are by far the very first to decompose. I suspect that it is the constant moisture or constant contact with the soil (or combo) that does it, as the rock doesn't allow it to dry out as easily, which is what seems to make dog poop last forever.

Excellent tip!

Sue

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#189744 - 12/02/09 05:55 PM Re: Toilet paper. [Re: Susan]
sodak Offline
Addict

Registered: 03/20/05
Posts: 410
How on earth do the forests survive with all of the wild animals ignoring our advice?

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#189753 - 12/02/09 06:46 PM Re: Toilet paper. [Re: sodak]
dweste Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 02/16/08
Posts: 2463
Loc: Central California
Animals are recycling the forest, we are often dumping things from outside the normal forest cycle that can cause problems. Plus we are guests who owe certain courtesies to those who share their space with us.

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#189760 - 12/02/09 07:28 PM Re: Toilet paper. [Re: sodak]
MostlyHarmless Offline
Old Hand

Registered: 06/03/09
Posts: 982
Loc: Norway
Originally Posted By: sodak
How on earth do the forests survive with all of the wild animals ignoring our advice?


Simple question of animals per square mile versus people per square mile.

A little bit of poo out in the wild is just excellent fertilizer that doesn't botter anyone. But you don't want a lot of poo and toilet paper in areas that see a lot of visits.

It seems a lot of people have trouble putting their "if I do this it can't really botter anyone" - habbits into perspective. And that is not only related to where and how to defecate properly...

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#189788 - 12/03/09 02:48 AM Re: Toilet paper. [Re: MostlyHarmless]
Art_in_FL Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 09/01/07
Posts: 2432
Originally Posted By: MostlyHarmless
Originally Posted By: sodak
How on earth do the forests survive with all of the wild animals ignoring our advice?


Simple question of animals per square mile versus people per square mile.

A little bit of poo out in the wild is just excellent fertilizer that doesn't botter anyone. But you don't want a lot of poo and toilet paper in areas that see a lot of visits.

It seems a lot of people have trouble putting their "if I do this it can't really botter anyone" - habbits into perspective. And that is not only related to where and how to defecate properly...


I think you sum it up pretty well. But also it is easy for people forget that we are relatively large areas. Assuming we only ate plants, and baring agriculture, we would need a couple of acres per person. And eating meat only makes it worse. On both ends. We quickly consume native populations, the supply of deer won't last very long if significant numbers of people use them as their main source of meat, and the feces of meat eaters break down much more slowly than ruminants.

Depending on resource density and the rate of breakdown of waste it may take several square miles per person to meet their needs. This also explain why certain areas, like near rivers that attract game and support plant growth, are historically attractive to humans. High resource density and the easy access to water and rapid rate of waste breakdown, or their being washed away, make life a lot easier for humans. The fertility of the 'fertile crescent' arcing through present day Iran and Iraq and the Nile delta were comparatively easy places to live. Which why they became advances early civilizations and also areas have been swept by conflict so many times.

Another consideration is that modern humans aren't exposed to as many parasites and diseases. Giardiasis (Giardia), beaver fever, is a relatively recent issue. But it isn't a new disease. Beavers carry it but seem to be immune. The fact is that most Americans before the age of rigorous sanitation were exposed to giardia as children. A lot of the babies died, either directly from it, mostly from dehydration from diarrhea, or as a result of some secondary infection. It was just a fact of life that babies got sick and some died. With sanitized water supplies, free of giardia, fewer babies died. But it means that whereas almost every adult in the 1800s was immune to giardia, because they had survived exposure as children, very few modern Americans are immune.

Daniel Boone was likely immune to giardia. The streams he drank from had giardia cysts in them. He also likely had limited immunity to a number of other diseases that he had been exposed to. He was also one of the few who survived childhood and made it into adulthood. In same areas the majority of children died before they were six years old. If you made it to eight you could consider yourself lucky. But celebrate quickly because most adults in the age didn't see forty.

There is a considerable amount of evidence that hundreds of years ago, after the susceptible children had died, most people had limited immunity to many diseases. This is often seen in undeveloped countries. It isn't that the natives are entirely immune to dysentery, for example, rather when exposed their symptoms are less dramatic. What would have us doubled up in pain is simply 'an upset stomach' for them the natives might clear the infection over time, or their bodies might have come to an agreement with the disease and become symptom free carriers. The infamous "typhoid Mary" showed no symptom of typhoid but her feces were alive with it. Traveling from house to house working as a cook she left a trail of dead bodies.

The woods are alive with animals that carry diseases. And certain humans carry diseases. Diseases most of us have no immunity to because we have cleaned up our food and water. This has saved millions of lives and meant we live longer and happier lives. But it also means that we are much more vulnerable to pathogens most of our founding fathers were immune to. It means we have to be very careful about sanitation of our food and water and it means we need to be careful with how we, and those around us, dispose of our wastes.

Historically disease has killed far more humans than all the wars combined. Modern sanitation was perhaps the single most important development ever. But it is a blade that cuts both ways. We are safer, happier and more productive people because of it. But we are also more vulnerable if the components of modern sanitation break down.




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#189805 - 12/03/09 01:05 PM Re: Toilet paper. [Re: Skimo]
mwigant Offline
Stranger

Registered: 06/18/07
Posts: 8
Quick tip: a little razor work "back there" before the trip will make cleanup on the trail a little easier.

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#189813 - 12/03/09 02:21 PM Re: Toilet paper. [Re: mwigant]
Jesselp Offline
What's Next?
Enthusiast

Registered: 07/19/07
Posts: 266
Loc: New York
I just found a new product in the drugstores that might be useful in some situations. Duane Read "I Go" fushable "Toddler Wipes." Also made by companies such as Pampers and Huggies.

Basically, they're a flushable baby wipe, designed to help toddlers learn how to "clean up" after using the toilet. Lots easier than with dry paper.

They come in soft-sided, re-closable refill packages that would easily fit in a BOB or other kit (I'm pretty sure they're designed to be carried around by a parent for use by the toddler when needed). I assume that by being flushable, they'd biodegrade faster than a traditional baby wipe, many of which have a high polyester content.

In the spirit of scientific understanding, I even tried using them myself. It was a very pleasant experience.

YMMV, no conection to the company, yadda yadda yadda.

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#189871 - 12/04/09 02:12 AM Re: Toilet paper. [Re: sodak]
Susan Offline
Geezer

Registered: 01/21/04
Posts: 5163
Loc: W. WA
"How on earth do the forests survive with all of the wild animals ignoring our advice?"

Most parasites are fairly host-specific. Giardia is a major exception, and affects many species.

Many diseases are species-specific. Salmonella typhi (typhoid fever) is found only in humans. Liquified stools running into a water source could cause an outbreak among the humans in the area. It wouldn't mean a thing to animals.

People in the 'olden days' were probably infected/infested with a lot of things, they were just able to tolerate them better than we can.

Just play it safe and be careful.

Sue

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#189874 - 12/04/09 03:14 AM Re: Toilet paper. [Re: mwigant]
Skimo Offline
Newbie

Registered: 11/28/09
Posts: 41
Loc: Tinker AFB Oklahoma, USA
Originally Posted By: mwigant
Quick tip: a little razor work "back there" before the trip will make cleanup on the trail a little easier.


NO!

Well for some people shaving an area may provide more irritation than tolerable.

Pretty sure I'd take a page from the bear book and find a tree to scratch.

back isn't the same as the front you know.
_________________________
J. Anderson
Kniferights charter member #606 - how about you

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