People talk less of hygiene every where, most focus on the basics, getting a fire started, making a bed that you won't freeze in, water purification.

Things then get even more complex with running traps and a myriad of skills and special items made for preparedness.

What I want to talk about is toilet paper, I think several of us know what it's like to take care of "business" once a super stressful situation calms down a bit. For example you fall out of a boat, get back in, paddle to shore, strip wet clothes, start a fire, hopefully have a spare set of clothes or a space blanket, get some warm liquids and maybe a nice high energy snack/meal to get your body heat up.

The stress wears off and all of a sudden nature reminds you that you've got something else to take care of.

I'm trying to be delicate about this, some of us have more or less hair back there and the quality of the digested matter may be a big mess. Should you be stranded or just far enough out this can lead to a sore rear and a bad mood due to the irritation.

I've been packing TP ever since I first learned this lesson, The bulk is worth it to have extra in a water resistant container or ziplock bag, some time there will be a meal or a drink even sickness not related to your food or drink that will require more than a few sheets of single ply.

I think it's worth bringing up as a separate topic and deserves some frank discussion.

BTW, I unroll the TP and re-roll it tubeless, I've considered taking just enough to fill the empty roll, as it is it stays in a ziplock bag.

I've tried folding it, but it didn't work out too well in the back pack.

I'm also interested in what you guys take with you, space saving ideas are welcome!

I don't unroll it, I just push the cardboard tube out. Then the roll will crush better. I don't carry a full roll, but maybe 1/3 roll. Better too much than not enough.

The rolls in public restrooms are often tube-less and prewound. I will occiasionally take the remnent of the roll when they're about the size of a pinky. A little trick to unroll sometimes but very easy to pack.

Baby wipes. I've used them for up to month off grid.

You must not know about backpackers toilet paper, which is tubeless, about 1 1/2 inches in diameter. One role is good for about three uses on average. They come 5 in a package at Walmart or Campmor for about a dollar.

Kleenex pocket packets for hiking and emergency use in the car. And I keep a packet in my bike bag, purse and a lot of my coats have a packet in a pocket. Don't ever leave home without them.

With aloe for a sore bum....

I've just returned from a holiday in Ecuador. I'd packed a roll in my suitcase, and found it advisable to keep 12 squares or so folded and contained in a ziplock bag. That was thin enough to keep in a back pocket.

I also consider toilet paper to be one of the myriad uses for a bandanna. I try to carry at least one 35" silk, again folded into a back pocket. In extremis that can be cut into 49 5-inch squares.

In my travels to Ecuador, I always pack my own TP. What I do is carefully remove the cardboard middle, which sacrifices a few sheets, but saves the need to re-roll. I then vacuum pack the whole role, which takes most of the volume away. I also do the same thing to partial rolls, to carry around in my backpack.

Pete

On the broader topic, I am sure the veteran members of this forum must know this book.

How to Sh*t in the Woods: An Environmentally Sound Approach to a Lost Art (Paperback) by Kathleen Meyer. Its available on Amazon.

In the field in the Army, when finding yourself in need and no paper, we would cut a strip of T-shirt off and use that. A washable and reusable cloth, while disgusting, is the most durable and environmentally safe. Finding a place to wash it out may be a trick at times, though.

On hikes I take TP and baby wipes. If I'm fortunate I don't need them after a couple days and scavenging the right leaves (personally I like broadleaf maples :-). Honestly though I have been saved by the babywipes a couple times, I would not like to have hiked the last 12-14 miles with crap where it would irritate, if you know what I mean. Anyway, you asked.

About 500 rolls of TP in the bathroom closet for the post-apocalyptic world or extreme pandemic situation. You can never have enough, and it is one of my economic barometers - whenever the price of gas goes up, so does the (delivered) price of TP to Costco. What once was a $12 purchase now runs about $19. Should TP strike $25 I fear the end may be near...

All this TP talk reminds me of the Cold war espionage where it was known to the west that TP was in very short supply for the Russian army. The Russians knew that the west knew that the Russian army was short of TP, so the Russians used to issue false intelligence documents to its troops who would use the paper as TP, knowing that western intelligence agencies would collect the used documents as a means of collecting intelligence on the Russian Army. As you could imagine the Russians had the last laugh because not only were they passing false information to the west about their capabilities but they knew someone within the western intelligence agencies was having to wipe the s*it off the paper as well.

Nothing is as effective as snow balls - exhilarating, too

And the most effective too, in my opinion.

To get really clean, I think some moisture is required. Unfortunately, TP usually shreds if you try to moisten it.

To avoid later irritation, I would need to pack pre-moistened wipes, or a cloth I could moisten, or perhaps employ a "spray bottle and left hand" technique.

I'm glad to have learned some new tricks, especially removing the cardboard center, I hadn't thought of that.

I like the idea of the cut up Tee shirt as well, I still have a couple shirts from basic training, full of holes, comfortable work shirts. the washing idea is sound.

While traveling my daughters baby wipes are alwaqys present for double duty, during a short stint as a wild land fire fighter I used some "bath in a bag" setups which are far better than pit/crotch/derrier rot.

I should add a few of those for hiking as well incase a day hike becomes longer than anticipated.

I'd like to here some references/citations from How to Sh*t in the Woods

I love the input!

Thank you.

Here on the west side of the Cascades (WA/OR), we have a handy nature-made TP and washing tool called sphagnum moss, which can be used dry or wet. A bundle of grass is also very useful. And they're biodegradable, too.

If you find yourself needing to use leaves, be sure of what leaves you're using. Poison oak, poison ivy, poison sumac, stinging nettles, any leaf with a fuzzy surface, and any other plant you know that has toxic properties.

Can you imagine how much worse your situation would be if you used poison oak as TP??? Yikes!

Sue

Rumex obtusifolius or BroadLeaf Dock - Natures TP and will cool and soothe the behinds of those who have somehow thought Stinging nettles will do the job nicely.

If you store the stuff in any quantity, keep in mind that field mice would probably find it great nest material. I've lost rolls of paper towels that way.

We learn to make fire with drills and flint, but can't figure a substitute for a brand new comfort like tp? The folks in the mideast have been using a little water and their left hands for centuries. The mission leader of the the last Methodist medical mission taught us the drill-if Methodists can learn to do it, pretty much anyone can. See http://hubpages.com/hub/Hand-vs-Toilet-Paper

I simply wait for the roll in my house to get down to the last third, pound it flat and slip it into a baggie. I generally carry one roll for every three to five days and depend on leaves if something happens to the roll/s.

Baby wipes are okay for a lot of uses but a simple washcloth, bit of water and soap works better and can save weight as the time gets long and the number of baby wipes needed grows. In a short term emergency or for a car kit baby wipes work so they have a place.

Most baby wipe manufacturers seem to declare them biodegradable. Some are clearly mislabeled because they are made out of polyester scrim and are not biodegradable in any conventional sense. Some others might break down but only very slowly and they can reemerge months later. Hike any trails where the general public goes, particularly the duffer, easy, trails, and you find the woods littered with toilet paper that didn't get burned and buried and baby wipes that get washed up or dug up by animals un-degraded, if they were buried at all. Nothing like getting back to nature and seeing little wads of pink and white wipes and paper every ten feet within 25' of the trail.

I have seen people who thought a wet wad of pink toilet paper was a kind of flower or unique ground fungus. I just shook my head and walked on feeling disgusted. Embarrassed by the process of elimination many Americans have no idea of how to properly take care of business when there is no porcelain. The predictable result is that if there are people present the surface water is full of fecal coliform bacteria.

The bottom line is that if there is ever an emergency where the general public is forced to live, even for a limited time, away from modern sanitation devices the chances of wildfire outbreaks of dysentery, with cholera and typhoid waiting in the wings for a carrier to come along, grow as time and numbers increase.

Learn how to dig a latrine trench and be willing to educate your fellow campers if groups are going to be in the woods any time. The life you save could be your own.

I second the post about learning to do the deed with water rather than paper. I was a volunteer in a developing country and had to learn to adapt to local custom.

The world can be divided into two broad camps--the wipers, who can't believe the people would actually wash their bums with water and the left hand, and the washers, who can't believe that people would actually rub paper against their bums and call that clean.

Both camps have their advantages and disadvantages, but I'd say the washers have the edge when it comes to surival situaions, except perhaps in the desert if water is scarce. Oddly enough, it's the desert people among others that tend to be washers, go figure. ;-)

It's easy to carry a bar of soap, which you should probably have anyway, not as a luxury but for good hygiene to prevent disease, to deal with the consequences of the washer camp.

Improvised Bidet.

Let me elaborate on my previous hiking TP etiquette post - pack it in, pack it out, always. For some reason that gets the Eww factor from some hikers, I've never had a problem with it - dedicated zip lock baggie does the trick. If you're doing it 'right', you're not packing alot of feces. Nothing worse than seeing someone elses TP along the trail. I tend to pack those strays out too...

I will admit the water/left hand method makes more sense, but I can't get used to it myself. That may go back to a traumatic experience with a bidet in the Dutch lowlands many years ago...

In any emergency prep you had better consider where you'll sh&t. A 5 gallon bucket with a top is a start, an outdoor trench may make sense, but bucket with a dedicated toilet seat and anti-odor powder is deluxe. I am considering having a sewage backflow device put on my sewer pipe to prevent sewage in my house should flooding put the nearby sewage treatment plant out of commission. Anyway, think about it, make a plan.

I am reading an interesting book on the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, The Forever War, and in one spot the author mentions the dilemma of moving 5,000 troops under fire through an urban area like Fallujah. Any event organizer can tell you, 5,000 folks in 24 hours will invariably require xx porta-potties. These guys are under fire, but nature calls. He says they dedicated an anteroom filled with cardboard boxes.

water + left hand, does this apply only to right handed folks?

Us lefties I imagine should use the right hand?

I mean the idea is keeping contamination away from the mouth etc. right?

Lono, while I fully support taking out what you bring in, however my TP gets buried and usually with a rock over it, the bigger the rock the better, keeps any potential water and wind errosion from exposing it and reduces the chances of it being dug up by animals.

I often pack out several water bottles and assorted trash.

I've used everything from rocks to snow to the yellow pages. You do what you have to do.

As for packing out used TP (et al) I have been using a short paintball tube, plastic with a flip lid. Tried the zip lock baggies and pringles tubes and this is now what works for me.

I thought part of the purpose of packing out your biowaste was to reduce the chance of contaminating the local water supply. Am I mistaken?

Thorough. Nice. Thanks, NightHiker!

Compugeek, bio-waste isn't much of an issue in the middle of no where, for example hiking with no trail or going off a seasonal trail the environmental impact is minimal (this is my opinion and I have no hard evidence backing me up)

I would burn it, but that takes time and smells to high heaven.

Well maybe not as long with just the contaminated tissue.

I just try to leave it as clean as it was before I took a dump.

When you use a cathole, keep in mind that the majority of soil microbes are within 6-7" of the surface of the soil, as they usually need air. Depositing fecal matter deeper than that is often out of range of the microbial activity and just sits there awaiting rain or snow to flush it to the nearest water source.

Sue

the best advice i got on the subject of disposal was from a Forest Ranger in Canada.he said just put a good size rock on it.this is wet forest country with heavy winter snow.i tried that on a spring canoe trip and was back in the same camp that fall and of course had to check it out..yes,you would never know...having real TP is a major morale booster which is why you will find a pack in MRE's and some,if not all,military food packs.

That put-a-rock-on-it idea is excellent. I've noticed in my garden when I use cardboard mulch (even 6-ply) and hold it in place with rocks or bricks, those spots are by far the very first to decompose. I suspect that it is the constant moisture or constant contact with the soil (or combo) that does it, as the rock doesn't allow it to dry out as easily, which is what seems to make dog poop last forever.

Excellent tip!

Sue

How on earth do the forests survive with all of the wild animals ignoring our advice?

Animals are recycling the forest, we are often dumping things from outside the normal forest cycle that can cause problems. Plus we are guests who owe certain courtesies to those who share their space with us.

Simple question of animals per square mile versus people per square mile.

A little bit of poo out in the wild is just excellent fertilizer that doesn't botter anyone. But you don't want a lot of poo and toilet paper in areas that see a lot of visits.

It seems a lot of people have trouble putting their "if I do this it can't really botter anyone" - habbits into perspective. And that is not only related to where and how to defecate properly...

I think you sum it up pretty well. But also it is easy for people forget that we are relatively large areas. Assuming we only ate plants, and baring agriculture, we would need a couple of acres per person. And eating meat only makes it worse. On both ends. We quickly consume native populations, the supply of deer won't last very long if significant numbers of people use them as their main source of meat, and the feces of meat eaters break down much more slowly than ruminants.

Depending on resource density and the rate of breakdown of waste it may take several square miles per person to meet their needs. This also explain why certain areas, like near rivers that attract game and support plant growth, are historically attractive to humans. High resource density and the easy access to water and rapid rate of waste breakdown, or their being washed away, make life a lot easier for humans. The fertility of the 'fertile crescent' arcing through present day Iran and Iraq and the Nile delta were comparatively easy places to live. Which why they became advances early civilizations and also areas have been swept by conflict so many times.

Another consideration is that modern humans aren't exposed to as many parasites and diseases. Giardiasis (Giardia), beaver fever, is a relatively recent issue. But it isn't a new disease. Beavers carry it but seem to be immune. The fact is that most Americans before the age of rigorous sanitation were exposed to giardia as children. A lot of the babies died, either directly from it, mostly from dehydration from diarrhea, or as a result of some secondary infection. It was just a fact of life that babies got sick and some died. With sanitized water supplies, free of giardia, fewer babies died. But it means that whereas almost every adult in the 1800s was immune to giardia, because they had survived exposure as children, very few modern Americans are immune.

Daniel Boone was likely immune to giardia. The streams he drank from had giardia cysts in them. He also likely had limited immunity to a number of other diseases that he had been exposed to. He was also one of the few who survived childhood and made it into adulthood. In same areas the majority of children died before they were six years old. If you made it to eight you could consider yourself lucky. But celebrate quickly because most adults in the age didn't see forty.

There is a considerable amount of evidence that hundreds of years ago, after the susceptible children had died, most people had limited immunity to many diseases. This is often seen in undeveloped countries. It isn't that the natives are entirely immune to dysentery, for example, rather when exposed their symptoms are less dramatic. What would have us doubled up in pain is simply 'an upset stomach' for them the natives might clear the infection over time, or their bodies might have come to an agreement with the disease and become symptom free carriers. The infamous "typhoid Mary" showed no symptom of typhoid but her feces were alive with it. Traveling from house to house working as a cook she left a trail of dead bodies.

The woods are alive with animals that carry diseases. And certain humans carry diseases. Diseases most of us have no immunity to because we have cleaned up our food and water. This has saved millions of lives and meant we live longer and happier lives. But it also means that we are much more vulnerable to pathogens most of our founding fathers were immune to. It means we have to be very careful about sanitation of our food and water and it means we need to be careful with how we, and those around us, dispose of our wastes.

Historically disease has killed far more humans than all the wars combined. Modern sanitation was perhaps the single most important development ever. But it is a blade that cuts both ways. We are safer, happier and more productive people because of it. But we are also more vulnerable if the components of modern sanitation break down.

Quick tip: a little razor work "back there" before the trip will make cleanup on the trail a little easier.

I just found a new product in the drugstores that might be useful in some situations. Duane Read "I Go" fushable "Toddler Wipes." Also made by companies such as Pampers and Huggies.

Basically, they're a flushable baby wipe, designed to help toddlers learn how to "clean up" after using the toilet. Lots easier than with dry paper.

They come in soft-sided, re-closable refill packages that would easily fit in a BOB or other kit (I'm pretty sure they're designed to be carried around by a parent for use by the toddler when needed). I assume that by being flushable, they'd biodegrade faster than a traditional baby wipe, many of which have a high polyester content.

In the spirit of scientific understanding, I even tried using them myself. It was a very pleasant experience.

YMMV, no conection to the company, yadda yadda yadda.

"How on earth do the forests survive with all of the wild animals ignoring our advice?"

Most parasites are fairly host-specific. Giardia is a major exception, and affects many species.

Many diseases are species-specific. Salmonella typhi (typhoid fever) is found only in humans. Liquified stools running into a water source could cause an outbreak among the humans in the area. It wouldn't mean a thing to animals.

People in the 'olden days' were probably infected/infested with a lot of things, they were just able to tolerate them better than we can.

Just play it safe and be careful.

Sue

NO!

Well for some people shaving an area may provide more irritation than tolerable.

Pretty sure I'd take a page from the bear book and find a tree to scratch.

back isn't the same as the front you know.

Plucking is usually better than shaving. Plucking the hair from the entire crack area also lessens the chances and severity of 'Jeep riders disease', Pilonidal Cysts. A potentially debilitating condition.

Yes and no. Many bacteria can infect another species without causing disease; hence they become carriers or vectors. A number of bacterial (and viral) agents are now jumping their traditional host species, in part due to the rising number of immuno-deficient individuals in the general population. For example a number of Helicobacter spp. have been found in non-traditional host species, leading to the spread in many populations. In many cases these organisms do not cause outright disease but may have an effect on the immune system making the individual more susceptible to other disease causing agents.

Some viral agents when they jump host species can have a devastating effect on the new host species. For example many parvoviruses and their respective hosts have an almost commensal (non-disease causing or normal) relationship. In some cases the virus causes no outright disease, but influences the immune system either up regulating or down regulating all or parts of the immune response. However, when the agent jumps species or infects a naïve population, outright disease and death is often the result until the virus or host species adapts to the infection over time.

While it is true most parasites are host specific due to their life cycle, there are cases (rare) where a parasitic agent will jump species (aberrant host). Generally it is a dead end infection/infestation, but can make life miserable for the affected host.

Pete

Prepration-H makes wipes. They are simply saturated with witch hazel. I use them all the time, in the wild and at home. I do not use them for medical reasons, I just hate the smell of baby wipes and think these clean better. And with witch hazel they work on other body parts too. Kind of like alcohol wipes but much more gentle on those special places.

They are flushable. In the wild, I use TP for gross decon and then do a final cleaning with the wipes. I then gather all the TP and wipes and either stick in a ziplock or drop in the fire if we have one.

As far as TP for hiking, I steal rolls from work. The rolls there have no tube and when they are nearly out the custodial staff will swap them out and leave a roll about 1" to 2" in diameter, which are the ideal size for sticking in my pack.

Pete, yes I know that, but my point was that not every disease nor every parasite crosses all species, which is why the animals' poops don't cause a disease conflagration among them.

But contamination from human waste has a higher likelihood of contaminating other humans, as there's no 'fight' to cross a species barrier. Well, at least with most people...

Sue

Susan, Agreed.

Sort of off the OP topic, but-

I guess my point of view (not directed at you Susan, but to the tread in general), is while we don’t want to be totally irresponsible when it comes to voiding in the outdoors, I think we tend to over estimate our impact on the water supply at least from the individual’s or small group’s impact. Clearly, if you have hundreds of individuals voiding in or near a water source, chances are you will end up with major coliform bacteria contamination (that is why we treat water before drinking). However, animals too void in these areas and likely have a larger impact than we humans. Granted the environment in which you void, will be a major factor in the ability of the environment to absorb the impact, but I think in most areas the impact will end up being minimal.

Look at the number of military campaigns with large numbers of concentrated troops field voiding. I would suspect if these large numbers of troops voiding had a major long-lasting environmental impact, we would still be seeing the negative effects of these actions. I contend the environment is a good self-fixer and while it may not be a popular line of thought in some circles, I believe we humans are also part of the natural ecosystem. I grew up with the principle of being a conservationist not an environmentalist. We were to be conscientious custodians of our resources, which were to be used wisely and with care, but were to be used. My impression (which may be wrong) is that many, if not most environmentalists want a totally hands off approach (in terms of human approach to utilization of natural resources).

Pete

Miner, are you referring to "Tuck's"?

When I had some issues in that department Tuck's are what the proctologist recommended for post wipe cleanup. Witch Hazel, as an astringent, presumably kept the area clean and psuedo disinfected. I think he prescribed them in general because his opinion was people don't keep that area clean enough, which contributed to other issues (hemmorhoids, cross contamination to uncooked foods, etc.)

I buy the Walgreen's Antibacterial Thick Moist Wipes with Moisterizers and Natural Aloe, individually packed in boxes of 48 so you can stick them in pockets, purses, packs.

The active ingredient is Benzalkonium Chloride .13%. I found that for me the alcohol sanitizer gels dried out my hands, as did straight alcohol wipes. The added moisterizers in these make a real difference at both ends.

More post waste (pun intended) with the individual foil wrappers, but they are disinfecting wipes, pleasantly scented (not flowerly or lemony or mediciny), and very wet. Plus they are paper so are biodegradeable.

They are very popular with my hiking/camping friends that want more than just paper or in place of TP.

One last note-I buy RV toilet paper for our Roadtrek, the single ply watch-out-or-your-hand-goes-right-through-type and carry small rolls of it on longer outings. It practically biodegrades in your hands.

Jakam,

Tucks are the same thing but smaller. The Prep-H ones come in a large, resealable pack with 50 or so wipes, and you can buy them in a box individually wrapped. I buy them both ways and use the individually wrapped ones in situations where I need to be a little more discrete. Wal-mart has a generic ones too but I do not like it as well as the Prep-H ones.

The only advantage with the Prep-H over Tucks is size. I like the margin of error I have with Prep-H.

I keep one full roll in the SHTF bag, one in my company van, and another in the console of my Jeep. Never leave home without TP, especially if you're going anywhere away from civilization.

Then we should be putting diapers on all the elk and deer in Colorado. Any idea how many there are v.s. people recreating in the forests? A LOT more. Our wildlife populations here would really surprise a lot of people.

To answer the original question, I wipe and bury. And carry lots of tp. And that's the way it's going to be for me. You all want to carry nasty stuff around in zip lock bags, go for it.

I am sure these have already been mentioned, I carry baby wipes for use in camp and paper blue shop towels for in the field (not the fastest to degrade though). The shop towels are because they are multipurpose, I used one as a dressing when my son hit his hand with a brush-hook and it worked great. I also use them to clean my hands after gutting big game. I started carrying a very small bottle of alcohol hand sanitizer in my field kit, it works well to clean your hands with if there is no water nearby. My hunting partner wears latex gloves to clean-up after making a deposit, that way his hands stay clean and he turns the gloves inside-out to carry them out for disposal.

Mike

The gloves and the baby wipes do sound like a good idea. The other idea of shaving the nether regions is a good one too, but I'm not that flexible. I guess if you sneezed, you could get rid of some hemis at the same time....