Link

Thanks for posting this, Hookpunch.

30 seconds to 2 minutes. guessing that is due to different interior capacites, IE club cab truck vs SUV. I wonder if front driver window exit holds true if you have more than one child with you. Thinking in my Explorer if I had 2 kids in back it might be easier to move them to the cargo area and go out the back wider window. Point of interest would be to know how much glass the punch would clear on the back window though.

Also I have heard many say they have "A" punch located _______ . I have not heard anyone say 1 here for me and 1 here in case I have a passenger. If you only have 1 punch are you and your passenger both going out the same window, trying to hand it off to them, or would it be a good idea to have 2 punches and break at the same time. I'm not sure sharing 1 would work so well since as soon as you puncture a window water will rush in. During that time it would be very easy to miss the hand off even if the person holding it first remembered to let go of the punch in a panicked situation. Gonna have to think about this one.

Wow--nice article. Thanks very much.

A car sinking in deep water poses one of the most difficult survival challenges that a family can face. There have been some realistic video's and tests done on this situation - they show that you've got very little time to do the right things and survive. It would be much harder still for a family minivan where there are both parents and kids in the vehicle.

Yes- the conclusion was to punch out the vehicle windows with a sharp tool. Fortunately the side windows will shatter. But you have to take this step VERY quickly. And as someone also noted, in a multiple-occupant situation you would really need to punch out several windows. I'm not sure kids could do this in a scary situation (or at all), so a parent would have to somehow get back in the vehicle. Hard to do ... maybe not impossible. But probably one of the most stressful experiences that a parent or adult would go through.

Pete

Thanks for posting the article, which I'm going to send around

My wife has first hand experience being in a sinking car... flipped upside down in a river/creek...

Anyone have questions for her I`ll gladly ask.

-Todd

One thing I did think about was carseat placement. Typically my daughter goes in the middle. Were I to be around water I would move her to either side. Reason, if you've ever tried to slide into the backseat from the front it is easier going straight back and not at an angle. Even more important if you are going to have to pass them back up to the front and then climb back up there yourself, all before you even break the window.

Thinking about a backseat it already nerve wracking. I would not like to be in a position of having a van or extended SUV (Suburban, Expidition), or anything with a 3rd row of seats with people in them. 3rd row really make you start thinking about how many punches you need. And if more than 1 punch, do you need to have a drill with your family to practice that you will all unbuckle and punch at the same time.

Good article, Hook; thanks. There are some good videos on YouTube about escaping a sinking car.

Dr. Giesbrecht has done some great work on surviving cold water immersion as well.

How long does it take you parents to get a child/baby out of a car seat under normal conditions? In a sinking car, would you be fumbling for the connections or just ripping through them with the belt cutter tool?

Was it here at ETS that someone said it's easier to cut a seatbelt on the diagonal than straight across?

Sue

Interesting. Interesting. Thanks.

My earlier comments were based on my recollections from seeing videos of sinking cars - plus tests by people who tried to escape them.

The article referenced here is good. But it does not give enough detail about how they opened the windows. Did they roll them down with a mechanical door handle, or punch them out with a counterpunch?

One question I would have is this ... if you break an auto window with a counterpunch, does the whole thing just shatter? Or do you wind up with a partial break and jagged pieces still protruding. I wonder how easy this breaking maneuver really is - given that time is limited and you may need to break several windows?

Practically, I cannot imagine a whole family in a minivan going out through just one window. There would be too much fear and panic. You'd need to break at least one window in the front and back.

Bottom line - you've got to have that breaking tool immediately accessible. The article did get that part right.

Pete

Pete-

From bottom of article

"For total peace of mind, Giesbrecht recommends buying a centre-punch device, like a $10 RES-Q-ME tool, which can be used to shatter windows and cut seatbelts."

Good news report and demo on the tool HERE Ignore the newsmans price quote at the end...

Good job! That video answers the question perfectly. Looks like the window does shatter enough, that with just a little extra pushing you can clear all the glass away. That's good to know.

I need to get one or two of those devices in my wife's minivan. That vehicle does not have any handles for opening the windows. So if the power goes out and you can't open the doors ... there's only one alternative left.

Thanks!
Pete

I don't know how much stock each of you place on Mythbusters findings as an individual but in Episode 72 they did an "Underwater Car" myth.

Here is a brief rundown of what they found

Last winter a drunk drove into nearby Nassau Lake. He was very lucky to be rescued by a couple of volunteers.

http://www.lifesaving.com/spotlight/show_article.php?section=spot&id=624

When a car's side window breaks, it shatters into thousands of little rounded edge pieces. Had that happen when I was riding in the back seat at about age 7 and a dump truck backed into us. Glass sprayed everywhere but I was uninjured.

Now I'm wondering - could I get out of the side window of my car, wearing a winter coat? This will be a good thing to test. Even if I can't get out with the coat, I'll still wear the coat, I'm more likely to be trapped in a car on land than in water.

Or you could up the ante (just for fun mind you) and time yourself and see how long it takes to unstrap take the coat off and climb out your window with coat in hand.

"30 seconds to 2 minutes. guessing that is due to different interior capacites..."

Wouldn't differences in individuals also affect escape time? Such as: physical fitness, agility, build, training, ability to react quickly...

That was for float time of the vehicle, not escape time.

Oh, sorry.

Difference in NUMBER of individuals though....every person you add to the vehichle is added weight.

As someone else already stated, when you break the side or rear windows, they shatter and all the glass comes out. With the exception of aftermarket tinted windows, which wouldn't really makes much difference. Even though the glass would be held together by the tint after shattering, it would still be relatively easy to push out of the way.

The rear and side windows are tempered safety glass, unlike the front windshield which is laminated from 2 sheets of glass with plastic in the middle.

If my vehicle were filling with water, I'd be getting out of the seatbelt, unbuckling everyone else, and preparing to open a door once the pressure equalized. Of course, if I were in my personal vehicle I could just slice the soft top open with my knife anyway.

Do everything you can to get out before the car goes under. Strange things happen under water. You don't see as well, you can't breathe, the car may not stay upright. Don't assume you'll get out of the back seat once you go back there. The underwater problems I've had to do for quals are done first with eyes open so some visibility is available; then the same problem is repeated wearing opaque goggles. The attempt with eyes open is just a run-thru so you can do the real run blind. Due to turbulence, sand and junk in the water, do not expect to be able to see anything once you go under. It's not like a heated swimming pool.

How long can you hold your breath? How long can you hold your breath under(cold)water while fighting panic, smashing windows and rescuing toddlers. You have a very limited time to function before you become useless. This isn't something you will do well the first time and you won't get a second chance to do it right.

If you have an opportunity to get out before the car sinks, do it; that's as good as it gets. Call 9-1-1 after you're out of the car (but don't go back in to find the phone).

I would think it would depend way more on the air-tightness of the vehicle. I remember seeing an ad for a VW bug a long time ago where the car actually floated, and the guy rolled down the window to tell us about it.

I actually floated my beloved Bug, at least twice. They don't make'em like they use' ta.

I can't verify this But it makes very good sense to me, that in some contries A life Hammer is required safty gear for each auto. Not only is one required (kinda like a jack)but rather two are required, one in a glove box or accesable to the driver, and one in the wheel well of one of the rear tires. THIS makes sens so that if you rush to help a person who's car had slid into the watter.

I will say that having mutiple ways of opening windows is always a good idea. But I will add that keeping a marked window opener outside your vehicle is like putting a sign "steal me" on the car with keys attached.

I keep a CRKT MAK with seat belt cutter. in the map pocket of my door, and I also have a folder that has the window breaker. and YES I keep work gloves in may truck as well. While it is cool to keep the MAK in my truck in the map pocket in my truck, it is nerver racking when I have my truck cleaned, already had to replace it once.

That is now not the preferred method (at least for this week).
It can take a long time for the car to fill with water and equalize during which you can sink a long way in deep water. It can also get stuck in weeds/mud/debris on the bottom jamming the doors shut.
Current thinking seems to be to get the windows/doors open immediately and get out as fast as you can.

In MN, when we're driving on the ice in the winter to head out ice fishing or whatever - you're supposed to have all the windows rolled all the way down and seatbelts off (including kids in carseats) already.

You're already dressed for the cold and there's little worry of a car accident on the ice.

When a car goes through the ice, it's almost always the front end first while the back end may not break through. The nose tips down and slides in head first giving you time to dive out the window.

And usually the ice around the car while it's sinking won't let you open the doors at all anyway - let alone the water pressure.

T_Co

I also liked the summary by MythBusters. That was quite helpful too. How did those guys get such a fun job ... anyway ?!!!

So bottom line is that you've got to hit the side windows with a pointed hammer or a centerpunch. Works for me.

I hadn't thought about the problem with windows not opening (using door handles) because of water pressure. That's good to know.

Based on sinking estimates, you've got a minimum time of 30 secs to complete your evacuation steps from the vehicle. That is NOT much time folks! You've gotta' figure that if the vehicle impacts the water with any speed at all - you are going to be dazed and confused for a few seconds. So that's 10-15 secs lost right there. This leaves you only 15 secs to locate your emergency escape gear, unlock (or cut) the seat belts, and break the windows. That is tough timing in a real emgergency. I believe the average person could do it - provided they locate their escape tools immediately. I also beleive that the average family could drown ... if the parent(s) panicks. Easy to do in this scenario.

Pete

Just to lighten the subject because I was actualy looking my ceiling fan thinking about this as I fell asleep last night (the more serious part of the matter).


The only perfect solution is going to be drop down air masks for each persons seat and 1 can of spare air per row, and David Hasselhoff perched at the ready. I am currently awaiting my royalties from Triple A for suggesting this be part of their new 09-10 policy (save money now, sign up for 6 months at a time the Hoff's got your back).

I hadn't really put a lot of thought into the "waiting on the vehicle to fill with water then opening the doors" situation. I spend 99% of my time in either my company van with the driver's window rolled down, or in my Jeep with a soft top.

In the shape the Jeep and its top are in, there's very little chance it would be airtight enough to keep the doors held shut for long if at all.

Plus the soft top means I have a pretty easy way out if I need it, just slice it open.

"in the event of a water landing - Pamela Anderson can be used as a flotation device"

Seriously though, new thinking. Solo drive, window down. Multi person drive, windows up to buy time. Wind in your hair is nice but windows up could buy more time for kids in the back seat.

I don't think windows up or down will make much of a difference for how long it takes for the car to sink... And you need to bang out or open at least one window anyway to get out. Let the windows up or down be dictated by personal comfort level and season... not dictated by a rather unlikely car submersion scenario.

Drowning cars does not happen too often.. Someone quoted statistics earlier in this thread - how many people are killed in regular (non-drowning) accidents? Divide those numbers and the ratio will help you put things in a perspective ... It makes sense to think through what you're going to do in such event and have a window smashing / seat belt cutter device at the ready, but unless your daily life puts you in location where car submersion is a likely accident scenario I wouldn't worry to much about windows up or down. That would be dictated by my personal comfort...


I would recommend to prepare mentaly and physically for what you're going to do in some scenarious (fire, car crash, car submersion and so on), but don't get to paranoid about it. My main focus in traffic is on driving safely and improving situation awareness (i.e. training my "accident avoidance radar").

Just a thought here. Make sure that window punch or life hammer is safely secured. You don't want it lying around loose and flying around the vehicle if it flips. Not only could yourself or a passenger be injured but the tool will be unavailable when the car comes to a halt.

I think the take-away from this thread is pretty simple.

* Make sure you've got the right escape tools in your car.
* Make sure everyone knows where they are and how to use them.
* You MUST initiate the escape procedures quickly after the car hits the water - and if you do then your chances of survival are good

Thanks for the discussion.
I DO need to make sure my own family puts this into practice.

Pete