My kids have the glow in the dark mini fox 40 and also photon I's that i picked up for only £5 in a sale.

I thought this was a very good thread, and thought it might be good to revisit this in the wake of the Boy Scout who died about 2 miles from his father's cabin in the White Mountains of New Hampshire last week.
Boy Scout's body found

One thing the father had stressed earlier in the search was that he was sure his son would be found alive, because of the survival skills he had as a Boy Scout. For those involved in scouting, what's your assessment of an average 10-year-old scout's likely preparedness to survive this type of situation - several nights to a week lost in thick woods, in fall temperatures?
Are there certain merit badges/curricula within the scouts that deal with this kind of situation specifically?
And to everyone, what kinds of things would you/have you taught your own kids, or had you been taught at that age, that would have helped? What's the first couple things you should instill in kids to help with this kind of situation - and when's about the right time to introduce it/what age or maturity level is too early?
Dave

My daughters are 7 and 9. I have been taking them hiking since they were 6 and 4 in the White Mountains. I have never carried them an inch. This year we started tackling come of the 4k peaks.

First thing I taught them was to follow a blazed trail and don't wander away from adults.

Next thing was the essentials of the hug a tree program. Basically stop, think, observe, plan Stay where you are unless you can see a better location immediately. Make shelter, Make signal, wait to be found. We rehearse this information more than twice on every hike.

At 6 each got a camp-knife (chaep knife / fork / spoon hobo knife) and some instruction on proper handling (carry point down, don't put it down open, don't let go until reciever acknowledges reciept when passing) We rehearsed this at home with every handling of a knife. Made sure that they had opportunity to use their camp knives at every hike ( pealing oranges, cutting apples, preparing kindling)

At 9 (one year ahead of plan because she is more mature than expected) I am teaching the elder to make fires with matches. This is slow going because she is very tentative with the match (burned her fingers a few times already)

For every hike each carried their own gear and water in a backpack (yes even the 4 year old - those were short hikes < 2mi) Minimum gear was (and still is) space blanket, emergency poncho, food bar, flashlight, whistle, compass, warm sweater / windbreaker / coat - depending upon whether and altitude, 1 liter water, GORP (They like the kind with chocolate and mini-marshmallows!), FAK, TP, Towel. Most of the required gear fits in their belly pack - only the clothes and towel go in the backpack. Water is usually carried in hand because I haven't sprung for hydration packs yet for them. We rehearse the reasons for the equipment every outing. Daddy - "What do you do if it starts raining unexpectedly?" Kids - "Put on your Poncho!" Daddy - "What do you do first if you discover you are off the trail and lost?" Kids - "Stop!" etc. I got them used to using the compass to tell which way we were going for the first few years this last year I have taught them how to maintain a straight line travel by sighting ahead to landmark and moving from one to the next in steady direction, and that if you leave the trail in one direction you can get back by reversing. The 9 yearold is catching it but the 7 yr old is not completely getting it.

They have a lot of fun with Dad in the woods but they would never run off through the woods alone at this point. The most important thing I have taught them is that the woods are large and it is easy to get lost so don't.

I have to say I'm proud of my kids but was astonished a few weeks ago when we hooked up with another family with a 9 yr old. They are a bit more extreme than I and had already taught their daughter some technical climbing and that kid was a mountain goat! We all had trouble keeping up with her!

Dave,

A sad story to me. I probably read more into it than was there but will try to avoid putting those suppositions into a reply.

<<One thing the father had stressed earlier in the search was that he was sure his son would be found alive, because of the survival skills he had as a Boy Scout.>>

A boy celebrating his 10th birthday in October is not and was not a Boy Scout and therefore had no "Boy Scout" training. He may have been a Webelos and I would be right most of the time to simply say that Webelos have not been trained much and have practiced little or not at all for situations like this.

<<For those involved in scouting, what's your assessment of an average 10-year-old scout's likely preparedness to survive this type of situation - several nights to a week lost in thick woods, in fall temperatures?>>

My answer to that specific question is: None - no preparation. Moving on to something other than average, I'll jump somewhat into a later question you pose... At 10 years old our 4 kids were extremely well prepared and just as important, they were experienced, practiced, and confident of their skills. Our kids had so many adventures by age ten that it even amazes me when I think back on it - far more threatening situations that this tragedy.

Depending on the kid, somewhere between 13 and 15 they got incredibly stupid. Oh, sure, they still had skills, they still had experience to fall back on, but I swear, I could spit fire and it was STILL a battle to get them to simply carry a few essentials with them. Only with superhuman effort in terrain that they were NOT intimately familiar with could I force them to be sensible; to "Be Prepared". Opportunities to experience stressful situations in the wilds declined precipitously about then in the cycle of our family life, which did not help.

There was one occasion deep in that time (not long ago) on a winter elk hunt that two of our boys had an opportunity to refresh their memories. It was no big deal; all turned out great, but for several hours it was tense. Darned near killed me that night trying to find the oldest, and the 2nd oldest boy (#3 kid) was part of the search - tucked in with Grandpa. Everyone but maniac Dad (me) did everything textbook (I should not have worried). I pushed myself way too hard - way, way too hard - but since I survived fine I remember to pray for fools...

Guess what - since that night, the oldest is as serious as me about ALWAYS being prepared - he "got it". I guess that was the first for-real time that he KNEW that it was him or nothing - no Dad or Mom to manage the situation. I am proud of him. He is an Eagle Scout and the 2nd eldest is about to become an Eagle Scout but to be honest, I do not feel that their Scout experiences have contributed to their attitudes and abilities.

We never ever let our young kids wander off on their own - we were always wary of the dangers. We always "walked the talk" about "Be Prepared", even before the kids got into Scouts. Our kids DID these things - sleeping out without artificial shelter in deep cold, driving rain, high winds, sea spray - you name it, they DID those things. But always with us there; always with us ready (and probably able) to accomodate errors and make things OK - a perceived, if not fully accurate, safety net.

Our daughter is too cocky for my tastes - I do not believe that she is as capable as she thinks she is. But she's still not a rookie.

The two younger boys are OK but still not out of that stupidity zone of the teen years. Absent a "life changing experience", I am resigned to waiting out this period - the eldest is forging ahead in other maturity areas and listens/discusses things with me as avidly as a 10 year old, so I know they grow out of it.

At 10 years old, I do not know if one of my kids could have survived in the situation in New Hampshire. And my kids at 10 would have had at least a day pack with more useful things in it than the "Scout Outdoor Essentials" plus at 10 they had a wealth of experience to draw on. But I still do not know if they would have survived. It is so very easy for them to get cold at that age... their surface area to mass ratio is still bad compared to an older youth or adult.

***EDIT: If any TWO of my kids in that age range were in that situation together, I am highly confident that they would have survived very well. I KNOW this in my gut and brain. I'm just not so sure about one by him/her self at that age. END EDIT***

The problem with Scouts is not what COULD be taught; it is WHO teaches WHAT how effectively. Letting nits fall aside, the basics are all there and in theory a 1st Class Scout should be well trained, Be Prepared, etc. Parents/Uncles/"Big Brothers" should not take any of that for granted. The only way to be sure is to "tell-show-do" yourself.

I have had to fight each one of my boys to take the "Wilderness Survival Merit Badge" - and one refuses to this day. They KNOW and HAVE EXPERIENCED far more than the instructors, youth and adult alike, so they simply will not willingly earn that merit badge. If it is done right and fully, it is a good basic course. No one does that. I will be happy to be challenged on this and proven wrong - but good luck, because I'm pretty confident of my statement: no one teaches that badge fully and correctly. It sure as heck cannot be properly done in a week at summer camp.

I am extremely enthusiastic about scouting and devote an enormous amount of time to it. But in my opinion, the average kid is not going to be very well prepared by the average leaders in the average troop. Sad. I work from within to try to change that, but there is a large element of tilting at windmills involved. There are few true all-around "woodsmen" in our society today.

From reading literature and publications, I get the impression that Scouts Canada is probably doing a much better job of this than BSA, but I have no first hand evidence to support my impression. Any Canucks able to elaborate?

Your last question - start very early and keep it ability and maturity appropriate. Plenty of good advice here and linked from here (none bad, I think). Beyond that, I will not be an expert in child rearing until I have grandkids.

HTH,

Tom

Dave,

A 10 year old boy born in October is normally in his first year of Webelos. Scouting at the Cub Scout and Webelos levels involves only light camping, outdoor training, and experience. It typically does not provide survival training for the conditions this boy experienced. Unless the boy is in an exceptional unit or his parents have on their own trained him for such a survival experience, he will not have it.

In the case of my own 10 year old son, I have given him such training. OTOH, I seriously question how well it has taken. To some extent, he is a little less mature than I would like him to be for his age. Nonetheless, he has repeatedly surprised me with how much he has learned when he has suddenly been called upon to prove himself. But still he is only 10 years old. So he is physically unable to do many things he will be able to do as he grows.

Overall, I have strong doubts about the survival capabilities of a 10 year oldunder these circumsatnces.

John

I'll agree - most scouts are truely clueless. I always was well prepared, but I thing that came from the fact that I had been going a field with Dad for YEARS.

In my troop, so other guys got a clue the time we had to carry out a kid suffering from hypothermia. Not fun lugging that kid out. The scoutmaster we had at that time was CLUELESS. I was trying to tell him HOW to warm the kid up so he could walk out himself

(Kid had a down sleeping bag that he allowed to get wet, and not enough clothes to stay warm even though it had stopped raining)

I have equiped both of my younger children with a fanny pack like yours. However, they have chemical light sticks in a toothbrush holder, which I'm going to upgrade to Photons this Christmas.

I also have worked with them on the STOP principal, which is crucial. I wonder how long that poor 10-year-old wandered before he figured he was lost. 2 1/2 miles is a fair distance for a young child so I suspect that he traveled most of that distance after he realized he was lost. Had he just stopped and had even just one piece of survival gear, a whistle, he may have survived. How sad.

<img src="images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

I have to agree with you on the low experience level of most camp councilors, and I was one in my youth so I know. <img src="images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

For most skilled merit badges, the requirements and pamphlet information are usually just introductions into the topic, intended to broaden a scouts horizons (IMHO). There are few exceptions such as lifesaving & first aid where the requirements are rigorous. And for rifle, shotgun, climbing, etc. where the safty aspects of the requirements are equally rigorous, and rightly so.

I ran across two of our scouts at summer camp a few years back as they headed back into camp. I knew their schedule for that time slot was Wilderness Survival MB. So I asked what was up. They replied that they covered the requiremnts with the councilor in 30 minutes. They were experienced campers and hunters with their dads, so they had a good head start. But they sadly disappointed that the councilor was only really interested in checking off the requirements instead of sitting down and teaching them more skills. So they decided to leave the class as they didn't feel they were "earning" the badge. I had a discussion about this with the Camp Director, although there's not too much he could do at that point, and it also led me to look into the subject in more detail myself. And through a link on meritbadge.com, I stumbled on ETS.

BTW, Tom, I think a survival weekend would be a great program idea for a Campmaster. <img src="images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

I have often considered providing chem-lights. they are light and have a fairly long shelf-life. Problem is my kids love to play with them and consider them toys. If they knew that there were some in the bottom of their belly packs they would break them out and play at the first sleep-over and then the lights would be gone from the pack. As it is, I have to check and replace the batteries in the solitaires almost everytime out because they got played with and drained. I have even had to replace the solitaires once each so-far. Maybe the light sticks would be cheaper.... Hmmmmm

I have always thougt it more important to equip their minds than their belly-backs. (or their bellies for that matter). We have a bit of a marching song that includes the basics of the STOP practice. We have had fun making debris huts and spotting decent looking shelter spots (tight overhanging rocks, downed trees with roots up making a bit of a cave, overhanging evergreens with shelterd spaces underneath.) Identifying sources of tinder (birch bark, dry punk wood, milk-weed and cattails etc...) These things have become fun trail games to help pass the miles on hikes where there is long stretches of tree-covered logging road or old rail-bed which tends to be somewhat booring. Sometimes the kids even try scrunching themselves into potential shelter spots to see if they fit. (of course Dad pokes around in there with a stout stick first to roust anything that may be in there.)

Most importantly I respect the wilderness enough to never let them out of my sight in the woods! I think that it is way too much to expect any 10 year old to be responsible and calm enough to do the right thing in any stressful situation regardless of level of training. That is why we don't let them drive on the roads! There have been grown men with full gear and ton's of experience who panic and do just the wrong thing and get themselves killed. This is compounded by hunger, dehydration, and hypothermia - all of which make us humans more stupid than we would otherwise be. Someone posted that they doubted that their well trained 10 yr olds would make it alone but would probably make it if there were two. This is a vital insight. A companion will calm and help reason out what to do and provide key memories that may be helpful in surviving - not to mention body heat.

If I were bewailing the state of circumstances leading up to this tradedy I would not look to the scouts training or the SAR effeciency or the kids skill level, the fault for that kids death is the kids parent. Not for failing to train or equip his kid -though he failed there to - but for letting the kid race off into the woods out of sight of an adult!

'nuff from me. I'm I feel a full blown rant comming on.

Yes, this lost boy was a tragedy, especially for the parents, but I concur with the other former Boy Scouts on here - at 10, I could MAYBE start a fire, with a lot of matches and under perfect conditions, and carrying a whistle in the woods was something sissies did.
More sobering to me was the experiment I tried a few weeks ago with my girls, 13 and 10, to get them to light a decorative candle we’d bought with a disposable lighter. I showed them how, and then let each of them try it … for about 15 minutes each. The youngest one finally got the hang of it, sort of, but that got me to thinking – how many kids that age, even if they have matches or a lighter in a survival situation, are going to know how to use them. Needless to say, some “training sessions” are on the agenda!