There have been previous conversations here where some folks felt that Authority (police, army, etc) might/would attempt to take the supplies (esp food) from individuals or families that have prepared, to spread it out among those who didn't see fit to prepare.

Exactly how likely do you think this is?

Personally, I don't think it's very likely, but if I am overlooking something fairly obvious, I would like to hear about it.

First, even though a store like Costco could keep a list of what you buy, or a Power Behind the Store might see fit to do it, or some entity kept track of every bar code scanned by every store by everyone who purchased as much as a candy bar, I think it's hardly likely.

Second, even what some of the hardest-core people on this or any other survival site might collect, it would probably still be a fairly miniscule amount if divided among thousands of HaveNots.

Thirdly, if conditions warranted such an intrusion, one might suspect that much of the infrastructure was down enough to hinder such searches and seizures.

So, how likely do you think this scenario REALLY is?

Sue (maybe cynical and paranoid, but not THAT cynical and paranoid)

Not gonna happen. Commercial and government resources are simply vastly more logistically available, at least until we are reduced to roving bands of spiky haired mutants roaming the shattered wastelands.

Agree with Jeff.

I think that if it was going to happen, we'd have already seen it happen in some of the flood/natural disaster responses we've already seen.

I don't think they could have kept it a secret if they had, so I don't think it's happened before, and I don't think it will happen in the future.

I think Jeff has it exactly right.
If they are going to requisition food supplies they need truckloads, trainloads, shiploads. Not a few cases of tinned beans here and there.
It would be the warehouses, feedlots and grain silos that would get used.
In North America the biggest problems would be setting up the soup kitchens and the transportation instead of getting enough food to feed people.
---
I saw a band of spiky haired mutants once, not quite bluegrass music, but not far off.

I think you have it right. The key to understanding this is scale. What might be seen as a vast cornucopia for a family of four is insignificant for the thousands, possibly millions, most states have to worry about. Get to the national level and your vast larder doesn't even register. In the end any family, or even community, supplies are just not worth the time, trouble and diesel fuel to go get them.

A community of any significant size will be looking at major stockpiles. Like the Walmart or Costco regional distribution center, grain silos, warehouses. And if previous custom hold the people who own the resources will be compensated.

I wouldn't worry about the National Guard kicking in my door to haul away by supplies of Beanie-Wienie and generic aspirin.

Though, and I am fairly certain I am INcorrect, I believe some unsavory LEO after Katrina did do some confiscation most likely for personal gain. Fairly certain they confiscated firearms. I would love to be wrong on both points.

I'm more worried about the UPS or FedEx guys going "wait... I know who has order lots of stuff!"

That why I hate mail ordering preps.

Such confiscation would also be a highly risky business. I would assume that at least half of the neighbors around me are well armed, and that a lot of them would open fire in the event of a home invasion during a community crisis, whether the invaders claimed to be police/official or not.

Exactly.

Not to mention:



Uninvited "guests" tend to get their @$$ shot off around these parts.....

"What might be seen as a vast cornucopia for a family of four is insignificant for the thousands..."

That was exactly my point. The risk of confiscating what would be, overall, a small stash of goods would probably more than offset what they would get.

Okay, I guess we're all on the same page.

Sue

When I first mentioned this idea it was in relation to your pulling a trailer full of supplies and the possibility of being stopped at a checkpoint or being directed to an evacuation site where there were perhaps only a few hundred people and logistics had not caught up with the crisis. I never meant this as a possibility in a door to door scenario, I was thinking along the lines of LEOs commandeering vehicles or buildings in times of crisis.


Kona1

Since an RV is considered a home, there is a very thin line between commandeering a vehicle, and entering someone's home (or second home). Especially if the RV is towed instead of driven (trailer vs. Class A, B, or C). It could get real sticky, real quick. I know I would be willing to help if I could, but if forced I would be looking for the warrant from the LEO before looking for my RV door key.

Non-LEO/EMS/Fire trying to force me to distribute my supplies....


It ain't gonna be nice.........

Comms, there were a LOT of LEOs from other parts of the country there and an order was given to confiscate private firearms.

‘New Orleans Mayor C. Ray Nagin ordered New Orleans police and other law enforcement entities under his authority to evict persons from their homes and to confiscate their lawfully-possessed firearms and Superintendent of Police P. Edwin Compass III announced that anyone with a weapon will have it confiscated… that only law enforcement will be allowed to have guns’
http://www.nraila.org/media/PDFs/NAGIN_complaint.declaratory.injunctive.relief.pdf

Guns to be returned: http://www.nraila.org/Legislation/Read.aspx?id=2057

One of the notes from the NRA page related that the confiscation left the citizens at the mercy of "roving gangs, home invaders and other criminals".
I think those groups, and even your neighbors who think you may have something that they need, are the ones you will need to be prepared for if the situation gets bad enough where there is an emergency that overwhelms the government agencies in the area.

Katrina was a good study of what may happen. Just as you may train to improve your skills, criminals train to improve theirs.

You just won the wise quote of the day award. No more truthful words have been spoken.

Here in the US most of us are taught to have absolute reverence and respect for those in uniform. I highly doubt most law abiding citizens would attempt to resist law enforcement officials under any circumstances. It goes against our cultural norms and everything we've been taught since childhood. Having said that, I can't think of any circumstance that would warrant official confiscation of personal property. However, mandatory rationing seems quite plausible.

I think that if authorities came busting in door-to-door to confiscate peoples stuff, then pretty soon those same authorities would be having to worry about getting THEIR stuff confiscated by those same people. People might have been caught off guard by the authority-sanctioned gun thefts during Katrina, but now that it's well known what they did, I doubt the citizens of the US will allow it to happen again. More likely, it's the authorities who will be staring down the muzzle and losing their weapons should they try that stunt again.

I live in an upper-middle class neighborhood, and normally I'd agree - most would not resist at the time but rather lawyer-up and sue the city blind.

But in a community-disaster scenario people are going to be nervous and on edge, and if the front door gets kicked in they're going to shoot first and ask questions later (and that's legal in Texas).

In a blue-collar neighborhood where crime is a problem in the best of times it's worse yet.

Comm, you are not incorrect. There was some less then legal dealings involving some LEOs. It was very bad in some locations, however it was not wide spread.

That being said, the majority of LEOs across the country are professionals. Unfortunately a few bad ones here and there get the attention. Fortunately the LEO community is pretty good on policing their own.

The scenario of them keeping tabs on what we buy, is, honestly, preposterous. Lets consider this for a moment; the govt has their own watchdog groups to keep tab on their OWN departments. How well does that regulation work? Look at current events.
The logistics behind keeping tabs on large purchases would be literally insurmountable. Besides, its easily circumvented-just purchase a little more than you need each shopping venture, and soon enough you will have a reasonable stockpile.
Think of small eateries that buy their food in bulk as well-my stepmother owns her own cafe, and buys the groceries in bulk on her own CC. The food isnt kept at her house-its at the diner. So, the govt would simply waste time searching the house. Again, assuredly, that wouldnt be an isolated incident.
And, as others had said; if our society broke down to that point, I dont think aquiring civilian food stashes would be high on the list. In fact, I would assume that list no longer even existed-if it ever did at all.

About the gun confiscations and the approach to imposing martial law in New Orleans during Katrina.
When you read back over the rhetoric in the media and the public statements from officials at the time some of it was so over the top that it is hard not to laugh at it.
Unfortunately people were shooting at each other just out of fear, and the Governor's statements about hordes of rioting looters (which didn't exist) certainly didn't help.
Some of the shootings are still under investigation.
http://www.cnn.com/2009/CRIME/08/10/louisiana.katrina.shootings/index.html

There are times when we become our own worst nightmares.

There is a large motive against confiscation of your home or some other private property as a shelter place and that is the disaster will come to an end - whoever does the confiscating is liable for any damage to the abode. As long as there is a socieity, there is liability, and lawyers... Your house is the only one left standing for 6 blocks, and the city moves a field hospital or shelter for 30 neighbors into your living room? Prepare to get a new living room when its over. No, authorities will first look to public places to use, then abandoned commercial spaces, third maybe tents - and between these they'll find what they need.

Within 20 miles of home there is an empty KMart, an empty GI Joes, and and empty Lowes mega-store, all cleared, all that is necessary is to flip the lights and heat back on. Meaning, you don't need too much imagination to find places before you start commandeering private homes. And the same goes for food and other supplies - tight for the first 96 hours, but after that most authorities can expect supplies to start coming in.

We saw the logical end of this type of dangerous fantasy with timothy mcveigh and waco. this is not a survivalist site.
The Sock

I am a safety officer for a uniformed federal disaster response medical team. Actually, we have very nice insulated, climate-controlled tents for our field hospital. I have been on numerous operations, including the WTC on 9/11 and Katrina.

WE DO NOT SEIZE PRIVATE PROPERTY, EVER, nor would we tolerate anyone doing so in our presence. Our security element would probably arrest any of us who tried, and we would certainly be fired and sent home, if our teammates didn't beat us senseless and then resign in protest themselves first. The Constitution and laws remain in effect, even during disasters. The only thing we might commandeer is several tables at the nearest open pub.

I could tell you a very interesting story about our encounter with some out of control, heavily armed local "authorities" who tried such nonsense, but, well, I can't. Let's just say that there was zero tolerance for illegal behavior, and the problem went away.

Kona1, I wasn't referring to your post, so please don't take offense. You're new, so you probably aren't aware that this matter has long been an ongoing subject, mostly regarding the at-home stash.

Sue

"... I believe some unsavory LEO after Katrina did do some confiscation..."

I am currently reading Survival: How a culture of preparedness can save you and your family from disaster by Lt. Gen. Russel L. Honoré. It was a fact that the people who evacuated to the Superdome were searched, and weapons and drugs were confiscated. It was driving Honoré up the wall when he was informed that TSA delayed the exit of the people there until they could accumulate enough people to 'screen' the people leaving the Superdome, even though they had all been 'screened' before they were allowed to enter the place. Honoré referred to it as 'ludicrous'. Our tax dollars at work.

I have not gotten far enough into the book to see if the street cops were doing it.

Sue

That's good that you and your group feel that way. However, not every group of "authorities" believes as you do. Private firearms WERE seized in New Orleans during Katrina, for no other reason than the "authorities" didn't feel private citizens should have them. That is established fact. So while illegal seizure of private property by authorities may be rare, it HAS happened. And in recent times. This is very unfortunate. It has caused people like myself, who have a healthy respect for our government and law enforcement, to start asking questions about their actions.

I believe the founding fathers intended that we should constantly call into question the intentions of our government.

I think its difficult to generalize on the possible actions of police based on actions after Katrina. New Orleans police were witnessed looting (stealing, a felony) from stores and hotels, not 'confiscating' anything for the greater good - there was no higher plan or greater good behind these acts, they were simple felony, carried out in broad daylight among civilian looters. From what I know of the NOPD, this was somewhat predictable, a good portion of the force has always been less than reliable and susceptible to open corruption, but not every NO officer is- or police departments generally. You splash a hurricane down on my part of the country and I betcha dollars to donuts that the same looting and stealing does not go on - and if it does, the cop gets the same treatment as any other looter.

Private firearms were also seized in New Orleans, especially after the first night of pitch darkness, reported rapes, looting, pillaging, assaults and murders. Martial law might have had a similar effect as seizing firearms, and the same intent - get guns off the streets. Here authorities did what they felt they had to do at the time to reduce violence - seizing guns would have a debatable impact, but for people who had few other options I could see why they did what they did.

There was a post here some time back from a National Guardsman whose unit was sent to New Orleans indicating that his unit had to deal with numerous cases of looting ... by NOPD.

I don't recall seeing any citizen complaints about the behavior federal or other out-of-state units, or even Louisiana state police. Every case I recall involved NOPD.

Katrina and New Orleans are special cases and can't really be compared to anything else. Remember that all of this mayhem occurred in an area hit by a minimal _Category 1_ hurricane: areas south and east that got hit strongly didn't have such poor official behavior, nor have there been such problems in other hurricanes in other states.

I love Texas. I'm reminded of a quote from a Bill Maudlin cartoon that I probably won't get right: "You guys would've lost the war without allies like Texas and Russia."

Sometimes governments have a false sense of entitlement, just like some people do. They believe things belong to them, rather than they belonging to the people.

As far as confiscation goes, I wouldn't worry about things or arms as much as I would property (land and buildings).

Ah, Susan...they DO KNOW!!

Let me tell you all a bit about the world of Catalina Marketing. Catalina Marketing.

"Checkout Coupon® targets consumers at the transaction (UPC) level, allowing brands to meet multiple objectives, including quantity trade-ups, competitive targeting, increased frequency and cross-category programming. This consumer driven-based purchasing gives brands access to consumers by delivering customized promotions to each household."

Translation: Every last thing you buy in the Supermarket, to the product level, is recorded by these folks. Everything. If you have a membership organization (Like Costco, BJ's, Sam's Club), they can - and do - maintain a database of your purchases. If you have a "shoppers discount card" at a supermarket, it's all tied back to YOU specifically as well.

Scary, right?

Anyway, I want to amplify on your statement,



Your instincts are spot-on - it's not likely. In fact, it's not at all likely.

Let us take a look at a few of the really big SHTF situation in the United States over the last few years. We've had a few.

Might as well start with the biggies (and no, 9/11 is not a "biggie" in my book, because it only affected a small geography and a limited number of people directly, including friends I lost in the towers).

I think I need to address the incredible fear of "redistribution of (name something you don't want to share)" that seems to permeate so many people's fear and loathing these days.

So, we go (of course) to New Orleans.
There were ample calls for help - people came from hundreds of miles away. Over 1.5 million people were evacuated, over 1,000 died. Not a single case of involuntary confiscation of personal property for redistribution to those undeserving poor folks. Things were "commandeered" by authorities - boats and transportation - but there are no reports I can find anywhere where the folks who had their stuff "commandeered" were unwilling to offer the logistical help.

OK, off we go to Florida - Hurricane Andrew.


Millions upon millions of people displaced, billions in damages. No water, no electric, entire communities obliterated. 0 cases of "gubmint" forces coming in to take food, water and ammo from civilians to give to the fools who had their home crash down on them because it was their own fault anyway.

Now on to 1993, and the Great US Flood of 1993. . "The 1993 midwest flood was one of the most significant and damaging natural disasters ever to hit the United States. Damages totaled $15 billion, 50 people died, hundreds of levees failed, and thousands of people were evacuated, some for months. "
Hundreds of thousands of people offered financial and material help. Local agencies, overwhelmed with supplies, set up distribution facilities to manage the flood of donations from all over the USA and the world. No food, water, ammo or medical supplies were forcibly taken by jack-booted thugs in the night to be given away for nothing at all to people who should have known better and had their own cache of supplies.

OK, snotty sarcasm aside. This is the USA. We have a lot of differences, and lately, those political differences have taken an ugly, racist tone, and I see and "hear" it everywhere. I don't like it.

The reality is that nobody from the government really cares about your stash of stuff, perhaps with the exception of large quantities of firearms or ammunition and even then, that's not a big deal for most places. As an emergency management coordinator for my local government, I have a lot of planning guidelines from FEMA on down to the county level. All of them suggest being aware of the equipment and supplies that might be available in my protection district simply by asking people if they can help before an emergency is declared. None of the planning guidelines even remotely suggest that these supplies be taken in the event of an emergency, for any reason, because the supplies flood in from unaffected areas.

And you know what? I've been through three major river floods here, I saw the Blackout of 2003, I've seen other major emergencies in person and in the media - and people are almost entirely good. Yes, there's some looting. Yes, it's hard to get help in the first 96 hours or so. But over and over and over, we see it. People help. They come, with food, with water, with strong backs, with a willingness to help. They come with clothing for the poor, food for the hungry, drink for the thirsty. They send money. They send blood. They send love and support. They are all kinds of people. They are religious, they are atheists, they are gay, they are old, they are young. They are us. And they want to help in an emergency.

I am not so cynical, I am not so fearful as to concern myself with unfounded fears about some mythical government behavior that, time and again, has never been seen in times of great emergencies in the USA. I think more about we than me. And I think we - as a people - are better than we tend to think. I think that we get these amplified chunks of badness shoved at us on 24 hour news channels and we constantly hear about the edge cases, and we just become so assaulted by the commercial media's need to keep us fixated on their screen that we can't avoid the bad news - it's all that we see and hear and eventually even if you don't really believe it yourself, you begin to think that maybe the world you know - where you have reliable friends, where you would gladly help someone in need, where you'd do what it takes to make a bad situation right - maybe THAT world is an edge case. It's not.

Thank you, Martin. A very welcome and clarifying post which is a forceful antidote to the hysterical BS circulating on the internet.

Indeed. DC is never nicer than in an emergency -- be it weather-related or the trauma of 9/11.

It's very unlikely that there will ever be a nationwide emergency. The far, far more likely scenarios continue to be local or regional.

In those events, the rest of America will rush to help. And we should not discount the rest of the world's generosity. Most people are generous and caring and never featured on a news channel.

The IRS audits only a miniscule number of taxpayers annually because they can't audit everyone. I cannot imagine the government has the capacity (or the desire) to track what's in our pantries, closets, garages and basements.

My liberal-leaning neighborhood of government and private sector workers would riot if soldiers were going door-to-door to confiscate our food and supplies. I have friends who've worked for the ACLU and friends who are core-NRA and am not sure who among them would be more irate and the most spirited in resistance.

There may be isolated looting in an emergency, but it won't be the government doing it.

Welcome to the UK.

And your cell phone company can track you whilst you use your cell phone.

And your Cable TV company can track what TV programs you watch. Best to leave the box continuously on Foxnews when your out.

And you can watch your neighbours homes on CCTV via your cable TV box.

And you credit card company has a record of all your Internet purchases.

And you are recorded when you leave the country and when you return.

And you are monitored continuously by CCTV in the name of fighting crime esp in central city centre areas.

And your wheelie trash bins are micro chipped to so that the local council can spy on you to see how much trash you throw out.

And your vehicle License plate number is recorded if you travel across central London.

And your local council can hire Private Dicks if they suspect that your application to get your kid into an oversubscribed school is regarded as being somewhat inaccurate.

And Mr Google records all your google search words.

And your Internet Service Provider can read what applications, what OS and the Computer name etc you have on your computer.

And your employer can secretly watch you using hidden CCTV.

And all your international telephone calls are all recorded by default.

And phone taps can be implemented without a court warrant.

And anyone with an Internet connection can read this.

The reality is that the state is more interested in folks that have no profile, no recorded purchases,no tracked locational data. i,e. folks who are deliberately attempting to keep a low profile off the all seeing eye net.

If you want to disappear of the net for a few weeks without anyone recording your purchases, your likes and dislikes, your movements or where you are within a few hundred metres then I would move to Cuba.

Nothing different in the USA, at all. The list is identical, and dare I say, it's a contest between the US and UK.

And it's all theater,security theater.

There's two lines of reasoning, two mental models at work here.

The first is that the fear of death is a motivator to not do something. We know that's wrong.

The second is that technology is capable of finding behavioral and transactional patterns that people will miss and as a result prevent Bad Things. It can't, it won't.

There soon will be. Or perhaps no-one has told you yet that there is an electronic chip in your wheelie bin.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/thi...lid-413566.html

This report is over 3 years old now.

The sheriff and the forest service used to go around to the bars
and conscript folks when forest fires threatened.

They also would borrow heavy equipment from the local
dealers for fire fighting.

Nowadays they contract professionals.

Can or Will the govt. take it:

Here is the current version (Executive Order 12656) of what is mis-quoted a lot on the internet (Executive Order 10998, which was signed by President Kennedy in 1962 (yr.?), right from the government's site. I did not read the whole thing, and yes, it needs authority for their excecution to be authorized by law [Sec. 102(b)]. See Part 2, Sec. 203 and 204, and all of Part 3:

http://www.archives.gov/federal-register/codification/executive-order/12656.html

Welcome to the UK:
You aren't recorded whenever you leave the UK. there aren't even custom or immigration stations on the UKs land border with Eire.
'Which?' magazine tried out the phones that supposedly give your location away. They couldn't even get the right town.
You aren't on CCTV all the time. You noticed any on country lanes?
My wheelie bin isn't micro chipped and I don't know anyone elses whose is.
International telephone calls are not recorded.
The state has no way of finding people not on the system even if they were interested in them.
If you want to dissapear off the net; simply don't log on. Spending time in a police state like Cuba is the surest way to guarantee you are monitored.

If you chose to use a mobile phone, credit card or go on google or cable. yes they'll keep a record. (you really want a credit card company that doesn't? 'we have charged you £10,000 that someone says you spent in their shop and we just believe them....')
so if it matters that much to you don't use them.

This 'new'surveillance is not new. your neighbour could always watch you by simply looking out the window. your boss could always watch you by standing behind you. And i'd be annoyed if my child had a place at the local good school stolen, becuase the council didn't investigate fraudulent entries.
If you are innocent all surveillance does is protect you. it catches bad people and provides an alibi for us: 'I fit the description of someone who robbed a bank in glasgow yesterday? take a look at my local shopping centre cctv officer; you'll see i was 400 miles away that day'.
relax Am Fear Liath Mor, the state simply isn't interested in us.
The Sock

Oh really? IE 6? From work? I didn't even need to use my admin rights here for this one:

"20 Oct, Tue, 16:08:15","155.192.33.21","-","Nationwide Building Society","Europe","United Kingdom","Swindon","Swindon","51.5167","-1.7833","MSIE 6","Windows XP","1280x1024","32 Bit (16.7M)","JS Enabled","","","","http://www.bruxelles.irisnet.be/en/tourismeloisirs/tourisme_et_loisirs/sortir_a_bruxelles/restaurants_a_bruxelles.shtml"

I can go MUCH further if you like, without needing my admin access to this forum. You tell me a time in the past where I - here in the USA - could monitor YOU? From home? Yes, you can "opt-out" of the systems of western society to a degree, but you really can't fully opt out unless you decide to not drive, shop, get medical care, own real estate or vote.

I agree that the government could care little for the YOU or ME specifically, however, as anyone who has visited certain web sites that I won't even name here, the tools needed to monitor other people are very much available and used recreationally and criminally. Suffice it to say that I gave up on the idea of REAL privacy about 10 years ago.

very true martin; but i was replying to specific points

> 'you can watch your neighbours homes on CCTV via your cable
TV box'
>'your employer can secretly watch you using hidden CCTV'.

neither has ever needed cameras for that. they can use their eyes. you can't stop neighbour looking out his window, or your your boss watching you work .
The Sock

very true martin; but i was replying to specific points

> 'you can watch your neighbours homes on CCTV via your cable
TV box'
>'your employer can secretly watch you using hidden CCTV'.

neither has ever needed cameras for that. they can use their eyes. you can't stop neighbour looking out his window, or your your boss watching you work .
The Sock

actually re-reading what i wrote you are right. i should have said 'these specific points you raise are not new' web surveillance is of course new. i phrased it badly.
The Sock

There is one thing in favour regarding data security in the UK over the laws in the US and that is the UK Data Protection Act.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Data_Protection_Act_1998

Personal Data Protection Laws in the US are virtually non existent, which is why there are European directives which prohibit the export of personal information outside the European Economic Area.

BTW the Cuban Authorities never stamped my passport to say I have actually visited the country.

What I always remember about my visit to Cuba was the death of Payne Stewart and the crash of the only Cubana DC10 I had flown on back to the UK a few weeks later (I remember sitting in La Habana airport looking at probably the one of the most unsafe modern airline Aircraft ever built operated by one of poorest airlines in terms of safety and thinking; oh man do I really have to get on this aeroplane and that was after getting to Cuba on an Cubana Russian built IL62). Whilst I was vacationing in Varadero (Hurricane Irene hit the Island during my stay there) I got got talking to some local Cubans who were excited about the imminent visit of Payne Stewart (first US Golf Pro to play in Cuba ince the early 1960s since the over throw of Batista). A week later he was dead. In all the news coverage following his death there was nothing about him breaking the US embargo of Cuba a week or so earlier.

Tin hat has now been removed

Cuban Whisky is vile BTW and the supplied Tropicana Night Club bottle of Havana Club needs at least 3 cans of non diet Coca Cola not just the one which was supplied.

Was that eXTReMe Martin?

No. That's the cost for fitting equipment to the dustcart that reads the chip. I expect it includes the cost of the computer, the RFID reader, and I imagine the back of the lorry is a fairly hostile environment for electronics which would push the price up.

In any case, it's more speculation than something that's actually happening. If they did start charging for household rubbish disposal, it would encourage fly-tipping and we'd all have to get padlocks for our bins, human nature being what it is. Also, the binmen don't always return the bins to the household they came from. It's a crackpot idea.

(Sorry to post off-topic; this has very little to do with survival equipment.)

nah, just hit it with a bit of electricity and fry it.

If they put an RFID chip in my trash can I'll build another Tesla coil to solve that problem...

Response to the original question.

There's NO way that the US Gov't is going to commandeer food or water supplies from average citizens. It ain't happenin'. If they try it - they will get a face full of bullets. Seriously!

The REAL problem is the folks in your town or city. If things get desperate and they have no food - you better believe some of them could very well try to steal it (or take it by force) from you. This survival forum is a rare "skill set". Very few Americans have anything in the way of real survival skills any more, and most people in major cities don't have more than a few days worth of food and drink (if even that). The only thing people know about survival is watching "Man vs. Wild" on TV - and none of them have ever tried it.

Things are going to get downright ugly if you find yourself in a crisis zone in the USA, esp. if you are inside (or near) a major city. Look at what happened in New Orleans after Katrina. The place was a hellhole, and FEMA wasn't close to coping. Do you know what their local joke was down there? It goes like this ...

FEMA Rescue Plan: "Run Bitc* ... Run!"

No kidding.

If you want to hang onto your stuff, be prepared to hide it, move it, or defend it.

Pete

If you mail order what are obvious preps, also make sure you order a decent supply of ammo that's delivered via mail. If the delivery guys know you are armed, they are less likely to want to tangle with you. If they know you are armed and do tangle with you, it's probably going to be nasty and, IMO, is only likely to occur in a real TEOTWAKI scenario.

Speaking of delivered, I'm waiting for a FedEx guy right now, who is supposed to be bringing me a new toy from the CMP.

The Fed Ex, UPS and USPS delivery people are the last ones I worry about.

They all know I have a big dog.

Too many armed people.

total guns in the US 223,000,000

^ "Bureau of Justice Statistics Selected Findings". http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/pub/pdf/guic.pdf. Retrieved 2008-01-21.



Total US armed forces 3,385,400

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_number_of_active_troops

"There's NO way that the US Gov't is going to commandeer food or water supplies from average citizens. It ain't happenin'. If they try it - they will get a face full of bullets. Seriously!"

Seems as though I recall hearing of rationing programs during WWII, whereby the US Govt commandeered a lot of food and other items to feed/supply the troops with, and the civilians got rations of things like fresh meat, vegetables etc. Now I realize this ain't the same as coming into your home and cleaning out your cupboards, but I suspect if the US govt wanted our food, they would more likely grab it long before we ever even see it. Likewise our water supplies. In fact, they'd probably have confiscated it long before we even knew it was gone.

Knowing that, it kinda reinforces the notion of hoarding food at home even moreso. I doubt the govt would want to bother with the hassle of home to home confiscation, not when they can be the first in line at the supermarket before the doors even open for the rest of us.

I suppose, if the gov't was inclined to confiscate food from households, it would make sense to start with the year's supply in every Mormon's pantry...

I think Benjammin's right. The ability to control access and distribution is far more important than anything else. We're just small fries.

"...they would more likely grab it long before we ever even see it. Likewise our water supplies."

Now that I would believe in a heartbeat. That was the reason for the Victory Gardens. I believe all governments do that.

I used to have an English couple as neighbors. During WWII, he was in the Army and going home on leave when a guy sold him a 'hot' chicken (no, not roasted). He found an old pack or something and put the chicken in it on the train. Since chickens can't see in the dark, they're quiet, so he was able to get it to his recent bride in London and they had a nice chicken dinner, a Big Deal at the time.

There was also a severe reduction in the number of wild rabbits, as good hunters were selling them to the butchers, who were mostly staying in business this way. Tom also advised his wife to only buy 'rabbits' that had their heads on, as some people were selling cats as rabbit meat.

Sue

America's stray cat population equals a lot of protein.

Ick.

Ick is right in my current frame of mind. However, I can imagine extreme hunger could change my mind. I hope to never find out.

cat. the other white meat.


seriously, having eaten cougar, i think cat would be quite good if the need arose to have to eat it...but, given the choice, i think i would try for something else first.

I also agree with this with perhaps a caveat. Water rights are a big deal out west. In fact in many farming, ranching communities there is a water marshall, a non-government person who makes sure water usage among individual properties are followed. If anyone noticed water not being dispersed, rationed correctly, there would be a huge stink from the farmer to the marshall. That would be noticed.

good point. it would not be fair for someone to build a hoover dam on their property to control the water. just because the entire dam and the reservoir behind it was on their land would not make it right. or simply using ALL the water that passed through their land.

it should apply to the aquifer as well...

If you want to disappear of the net for a few weeks without anyone recording your purchases, your likes and dislikes, your movements or where you are within a few hundred metres then I would move to Cuba.








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And you think the Cuban government won't track you?

I know of folks who eat Bobcat as well, and they claim it is pretty good meat.

A word of caution, cook all cat meat (including feral house cats) to well done as they often contain trichinella. Cougars I hear are the most commonly infected. In fact, I would suggest cooking any carnivorous flesh to well done, just to be sure.

Trichinella can infect many animals: pigs, horses, foxes, wolves, bears, skunks, raccoons, rats and other small mammals). It's not that common in Felis catus, but thorough cooking is best for all meat. And that includes humans if things get really bad or the relatives need thinning.

Sue

Funny, that just reminded me of something. Anthropologist Carole Travis-Henikoff was on the radio the other day to talk about her book "Dinner with a Cannibal." It was pretty interesting. Here's a snippet from the transcript

Actually, it was the Donner Party that crossed my mind as I was writing that.

Sue