I'm packing my back pack for a unexpected night in the cold and hopefully not so damp, as a result of some bad decisions while snowmobiling in Idaho...I've got most of the hardware and clothing figured out, with a lot of help from this forum, but I'm still considering the food angle..I have in the past carried. Peanuts, raisins, hot cocoa mix, instant oatmeal packets, and a freezedried back packer's meal in the alum/foil type of container. I'm wondering what else might keep things going when we're cold and tired. Keep in mind that I pack it in october, and try not to use it just for a snack, and would like it to stay edible through april. I also hope to have some left overs from my lunch/snacks that I pack for the day. But, with Murphy hanging around, I will of course be spending the night after having eaten it all. And worst case, I will have just fell in a creek, so energy is the worry. I'm assuming I'll get a fire going and some shelter, and my stainless mug will heat snow for water... So, suggestions please. Light weight is a consideration because I don't want to ever be tempted into leaving my heavy pack behind.
Thank you all in advance, This forum is a fantastic resource.

Something like "Millenium" bars, or even a package of lifeboat rations from Mainstay or something similar would work to give you energy, and they won't require water, or heating. They will be good under virtually any weather conditions for about 5 years. I actually like the taste of the Milleniums, and they come in many flavors. You can find them in a lot of places, for example: Millenium Bars

Spam, it's full of fat and sodium but in a high stress situation all that fat would be useful to fight off chills. I would also suggest some instant soup mixes and a small stove and fuel. Hot chow is not a luxury in coldweather situations, its a lifesaver.

The freeze dry backpacker stuff, while pricey, is a great meal... assuming you can get hot water quickly. Ever think of keeping a metal water bottle near the engine on the snow mobile? It'd stay warm/near boiling depending on how close you kept it. So, that could be once source of near-instant hot water.

Otherwise, I'd skip the MRE stuff, on the chance it freezes. Def. the mainstay bars or millenium bars, but they're not super high cal, and pretty dry. Being a snowmobile, why not just a can of chili or stew that you can stash away somewhere? Like the water bottle, if you keep it near the engine it could stay warm and be ready to eat whenever you are.

Plus Spam can go with almost anything... Spam history

Spam and tack. Tack lasts forever if stored right. Spam jelly and tack is bearable, and is full of complex carbs. Makes for a rough night.

Cans. I don't know about the freezing temps, but I have a few cans of beans in my truck that have been through freezing temps just fine. I like pop top varieties, mostly because I use the pull tab as a handle. Combined with a camp stove/good fire kit you would be picking in tall cotton.

Do not forget COFFEE!

Remember this is for moral not survival.
There is nobody reading this that is going to suffer medically from not eating for a few days (most of us would benefit!) it's more about being comfortable and happy.

Sitting there with a cup of hot chocolate while waiting for the rescuers would be nice. So pack something that you would be tempted to eat even if not stuck.

Sardines tinned in oil. Oil doesn't freeze, it just gets thicker.
If you are lighting a fire canned beans are good. You can open a tin and set the tin beside the fire to heat up.

Canned goods have a lot to recommend them. The package is very tough.
I have never seen a tin can burst from freezing yet, though I have seen the ends bulge a bit, but if it worries you then throw some in the freezer to see what happens before you pack them.

Notice open the tin was first

canned butter,brown sugar,oatmeal,high quality hot chocolate. i would leave out anything salty or that would leave a taste in your mouth.water would be hard to come by and melting snow takes time and fuel. i have done some winter camping and a big pot of oatmeal--the real stuff,not packs--with gobs of butter and brown sugar is a real filler and chock full of calories.this will all keep forever and you will not be tempted to snack on it so you can count on it being there when you really need it.that's your base and i assume you will have other chow along for the ride.a big bar of expensive semi sweet chocolate buried in the oatmeal would be a good "fun food" but i would leave it at that.

Kudos to you for making serious preparations. Many snowmobilers don't seem to realize how fast they can get into deep, deep trouble.

Hot liquids, quickly, get you back on the right track. Instant soups and such provide core heat, electrolytes, and hydration. Not to mention the psychological boost. I have broken up some of those instant Ramen-type noodles and added them to instant soup to get a quick carb hit. A small, hot stove would certainly be a blessing in some situations.

For sheer blowtorch calories, SPAM probably isn't a bad choice provided you can get it down. A jar of peanut butter would also pack a punch. Match one of these up with some dense crackers and you'll get through. (IMO you'll be highly motivated to avoid being stranded if SPAM is your primary food source.)

Freeze-dried backpacker meals are a little more fussy since they need liquid water. Note that they will rehydrate, somewhat, with cold water though they won't be nearly as pleasant to eat. The light weight makes them easy to take along though, and that's important.

Let us know what you decide on.

Things to think about for a snow machine kit: groupings--

1) route finding
2) fuel
3) repair tools, parts, knowledge
4) warmth making
5) communication

My favorite long driving food supply was a heavy, homemade oatmeal/raisin/peanut butter/chocolate chip cookie. Granola bars are an easier, but not as good, substitute.

Another option is pop-tarts and summer sausage. They keep for a very long time, and are tasty.

Years ago, I read an article that oat meal binds with fat, making
the fat less available for energy. This leaves a question for me.

I would take the same things that you guys have suggested.

I would add, tea bags, instant coffee packet, bullion cubes
(double wrapped). Drinking water is important for health and
tasty water is good for morale. Also I would add individual
packets of jam, sugar, honey.

Put all these in tin cup, for protection.

Jay,
I just realized you are in Idaho: Bear Country in Spring and
Fall. So, be aware when cooking, and also when the survival
event is over and you are packing or unpacking. Bears can smell
those food wrappers. Maybe my suggestion (packets of honey and
jam) are not such a good idea. Sugar only, might be better.

You may be at higher altitudes than you are used to; indigestion
nausea etc. could be a problem. Foods that are too spicy or too
fatty make it even worse. So for a Spam type foods, eat slowly,
with liquids; save some for later. Or mix small amount of Spam
with Asian instant noodle package. In the pasta section, I have
seen some very small diameter Italian noodles.

Why not try ordinary super market cookies?

Cambell's Chunky Soup, I friggin' love the stuff. It comes in a bunch of flavors and is pre-cooked. Warming up a can takes just a few minutes (in a pinch you can eat it cold) and it's very filling.

In the winter, food is not luxury - it is a survival necessity. Fast and slow carbs and fat will boost your metabolism, and you need that boost to fight off cold. Go hungry = go cold. And - those every day dietary considerations go out the window... Your diet now is looking for a mixture of fast (sugary) and slow (such as oatmeal) carbohydrates. And fat. And water - plenty of water. Warm drinks are best, but any water is better than no water.


+1 on anything hot and liquid. You have means to heat water / melt snow, so use it. Oh, and if you can find liquid water, use it - it takes A LOT of energy and time to melt snow.

A snickers bar is a winner. Anything instant (add warm water, let it sit for a while) is a superb winner. You have chocolate drinks, soup, dried food that you add warm water to, ... If you can make it without letting it stir on the stove it is a great plus. (Believe me, heating water for cocoa in the same pot that you just used to make tomato soup is not very appealing. And cleaning tomato soup out of that pot in the winter with your bare hands is not particular fun...).


If ever stuck, the heat of the engine is also of use for a limited time. With the appropriate container, you could melt snow and heat water or food under the hood for maybe the first 10 minutes after stopping. I've heated frozen apple pie under the hood while snowmobiling... the next stop 10 minutes later with coffee, cacao and warm apple pie was really something to remember. Use that heat while you have it....

How about adding a 1lb loaf of velveta cheese that stuff lasts forever until you open the pk. Winter storage should not be a problem.
What kind of heat source will you be using, I agree fire is a must have. Esbit and a soup can stove might be my choice for a winter emergency use.

I recommend that you bring instant Jell-O (NOT the sugar free kind)

After Years of research and studying the US Government discovered that the best drink to help recover someone from hypothermia is Warmed Jell-O drank, kind of like hot coco.

While having 3 or 4 packets of this on hand won't be a huge meal, when someone start to show the "umbles" (you know, Stumble, Grumble, Fumble, Tumble) This is when you can warm and dissolve the JELLO in Warm Water.


This is a trick I learned in my Wilderness EMT class

I dont have much more to add to the food discussion, other than to say why dont you try and find an arctic ration pack/MRE. I will suggest carrying a thermos flask, as well as a water bottle.
There is very little point in melting snow just to have the excess freeze again. Also getting snow melting at 3.30AM for a warming brew is a complete pain in the ass. (personal experience)

I've seen 'good quality chocolate' and 'Snickers bar' mentioned, but any of your favorite, halloween-sized candies are a hit year round.

I would say fresh fruit, but with the months-long storage, I might suggest fruit leathers.

Beef jerky is always welcome around me:) , I added a bag to some soup last night to make it more interesting.

Quick boost stuff while you arrange your shelter: cyclist goo, hard candy, whatever form of mostly-sugar you like.

Easy-to-eat no-cook stuff while your fire gets going: self-heating food, peanut butter, energy bars, many of the foods suggested by others in this thread.

Hot stuff your fire and hot water can provide: tea. coffee, soup, and many of the foods suggested by others in this thread.

Thanks for all of your input. Some good ideas I will be incorporating in my pack. Some other observations: From other snowmobile forums, it seems the few who accidentally spent the night, they all just fed the fire all night and stood around the big depression in the snow and waited for daylight. I kind of assumed that I would do that as well. I wonder if the snow cave, makeshift lean to around a pine tree type of shelter wouldn't hinder the fire, or be worth the effort, but something to pass the night has it's benefit as well. I would have to guess there would be from 2 to 6 of us hanging round, waiting for the snow to freeze back solid enough to ride out, or morning and a chance to get gas/ parts to get out on our own. If it were more of a longer term survival situation, hurt, lost or ? then I would probably invest in the shelter, and of course it would depend on temperature and weather conditions... Is there a compelling reason to construct a shelter, by the way, I'll be dressed rather warmly, layers, etc...extra longjohns, socks, wool sweater, hats and gloves..my kits contains the stuff.. saw, knifes, trash bags, para cord, fire starters, bailing wire, zip ties, whistle, shovel, probe, avalanche beacon, cell phone (won't work but) walkie talkie, gps, and more..., never leave home with out a travel plan on a trusted friend/wife. So is sitting out the night around a bigger fire inherantly more risky?

Not necessarily. Assuming no injuries, no storm and lots of wood, the big thing is keeping dry and keeping out of the wind.

Building up a snow wall is effective for cutting the wind (downslope direction at night, usually). But it's a lot less effort to string up a plastic tarp or two.

It can take a lot of wood to keep a good blaze going all night. The more shelter you have, the less wood you need. The decision depends on how easy it is to resupply, how deep the snow is, the risks of getting wet/injured while gathering, and so on.

And keep in mind that it can be bloody cold at 5 a.m., after you've stopped moving for hours. A sleeping pad and light overbag can make your impromptu camp a lot more comfortable.

And remember to dry out your boots and mitts while you can.

My family and I have been snowmobiling, as a hobby, since the late 60's. Since that time, the de-facto rule we've stuck with is to always travel in at least pairs when out in the sticks. Why? Because, it significantly decreases your chances of being stuck out there. One sled can tow the other back, or, at least carry both riders back.

Using the "buddy system," the only time we've had to spend a night outdoors is when we got lost and both sleds ended up running out of gas. Since the advent of GPS systems and better trail maps, we haven't suffered that problem again.

To also help prevent that problem we started running unequal displacement sleds. Usually, when it comes to snowmobiling for fun everyone wants to run the most powerful sled, which means you often end up with a group comprised entirely of 750/800/900cc big block sleds. That's all well and good for fun, but those bigger sleds drink fuel much faster than a 600/550/340/ect. So, we always try to run at least one smaller displacement sled, so that sled might have enough fuel to make it back to civilization, even when the rest of the group is down to fumes. My old little 340 fan cooled was great for this, I would still have half a tank of fuel when everyone else was nearly on reserve (now I ride a 600 liquid cooled though, as the 340 just didn't have enough power for anything but casual trail riding)

Also, keep in mind, it's best to stop and get ready to spend the night before you're completely out of fuel. Having that little bit of fuel can come in handy during the night for starting/keeping a fire going, for getting away from the area quickly if you need to, and for warming up the engine during the night (why might you want to do that? keep reading).

So, now after all that, if you do end up spending a night outdoors, what do you do?

First, don't forget that your snowmobiling suit and your snowmobile are your greatest assets. With a good suit and helmet, my body rarely ever gets super cold. It's like sleeping in a form fitting sleeping bag. What does get cold, regardless of what gear I use, tends to be my hands and feet. That's when a nice warm snowmobile engine comes in handy; stick your gloves and outer socks somewhere under the hood (where they won't melt) and you'll have good toasty warm extremities. This is also a great place to stick your water bottle to help melt snow. We do, however, also carry plenty of little glove/toe warmer hot packs just in case the engine can't be utilized or if you need a bit more localized warmth.

When sleeping, I feel sleeping on the snowmobile is the best option if you can do it (some of the newer sled designs make it nearly impossible unfortunately). It keeps you well raised off the cold ground. Not to mention the seat, made mostly of foam, helps to add more insulation. Try to park the sled somewhere that allows for you to build a fire, while blocking you and the sled from the wind. You might also want to make sure you've got something to cover your body with, not for warmth, but because it always seems to snow in the early morning hours when I'm outside and you want to keep that snow from getting you wet.

As far as food goes, for snowmobiling I like carrying basic trail type snacks (gorp, jerky, ect) and a few canned selections (pork 'n bean, chunky stew, ect). Why cans? Because they're durable and easy to warm up over a fire. Often times we've also warmed up cans of food by taking the labels off and sticking them under the hood (by the engine) while riding. You just have to be careful with this as warming them up, in a sealed can, for too long will build up pressure in the can.

Typically, we would do this when we were planning on having a "trail-side lunch." We would heat up the canned food on the way to a good open spot off the trails, then, once there, we would build a fire, take out the steaks and grill-top we brought along, and have a nice meal.

When it comes down to it, food actually tends to be towards the bottom of my list of stuff to bring. Tools/spares to keep the sleds moving, navigation gear, communication gear, fire starting stuff, water containers, wood cutting tools, and first aid equipment tend to take precedence. The idea, for a casual trip, is to try not to spend extended nights out in the woods if you can help it. I like camping, but I'm not a huge fan of doing it in places where it can often reach -20*F at night. That's darn cold even when you've got a proper shelter.

Everyone's made a lot of great suggestions already but FWIW here's the stuff I take on dayhikes:

GORP
energy/candy bars
String cheese
bagels
beef jerkey/dry salami
peanut butter
gatorade powder
dark chocolate

If I take my stove:
Dry noodle packets or Mountain House freeze dried meal
coffee/tea/apple cider

"...it seems the few who accidentally spent the night, they all just fed the fire all night and stood around the big depression in the snow and waited for daylight."

Okay, please forgive me for snickering, laughing and shaking my head. These were all guys, weren't they?

So, they all assumed that if they DID have to spend the night out there, they would all be in fine shape, there wouldn't be much wind, and NO WAY would there be anything resembling a blizzard, right? No injures, no hypothermia, nada.

Snowmobilers are riding a piece of powered machinery THAT WEIGHS ABOUT 500 POUNDS! They could take a 25lb pack and never notice it! (Throw out some of the beer!) So why the wishywashy about taking a tarp and a closed cell mat??? Take a small stove and some fuel!

If you don't have an injured person, and WANT to stand around in the snow all night (*rolls eyes*), you can. But if someone NEEDS shelter and insulation, you've got it.

Sue, she of little patience

i'll second what Paul said about he snowsuit.a guy i worked with at the Vets Hospital was a snowmobiling nut.made big runs from Minneapolis to the border with Canada on what he called the snowmobiling freeway,at freeway speeds it sounded like,anyway i was sort agast about going out at nite making runs between bars and having a breakdown.he said his snowsuit was gortex and lined with so much Thinslite?--that he could just lay down on the ground and sleep in it..bravado? maybe..? but it made me think about getting one at a used sports gear shop to keep in the car.

Now Sue, new guy at the fire, asking good questions. He's on the right track. Cut him some slack. And give him the ammo to do the right thing.

P.S. Of course they were guys. Was that ever in dispute? It's great to be young and immortal.

Skidoo suits?

Yes they could be using thinsulate fiber in them for the quilting.

Remember that they are designed to keep you warm in a blizzard riding a machine that can go at speeds of 70 mph or more.
counting windchill it means an equivalent temperature of -60 degrees Fahrenheit or lower some of the time.
They are usually too warm to work in at 0 degrees Fahrenheit.
My last skidoo suit was lined with a fairly coarse fleece pile instead. It was able to keep me warm at -40 with no trouble and if I had to work hard in it at that temperature there was a good chance I would unzip the collar and maybe some of the leg zippers just to avoid sweating up.


Could you just lay down in a snowbank and go to sleep in one?
Yes.
You might want to protect your face, hands and feet a bit better but if you have the complete suit with the mitts and felt lined boots, the helmet and face mask, you are not likely to freeze anything. You might have to get up and move around a bit to warm up a few times if it is really cold.

Or maybe just light a big bonfire and stay up telling your buddies lies about how much better your love life is than theirs.

What Paul said about sleeping out if you had to is pretty much true.

That's what mine is, gore-tex and thinsulate. A suit setup that combines both (most just use thinsulate) isn't cheap either. IIRC, it was near $700 between the jacket and the bib. It's definitely worth it though, the Gore-Tex really helps when things start to get stupid cold. My boots, as well as my gloves now, are also gore-tex and thinsulate.

We were out night riding one time and the temperature was -25*F. Our average speed was probably 30-40 mph, which means a windchill of about -60*F. Even at that temperature it kept me comfortable enough to keep riding. The only places I could remember being truly cold are my hands (which is why I went out and bought new gloves) and the parts of my face where the vents in the helmet are (I had to keep the vents open a little while we were moving or my glasses would fog up and the fog would freeze solid). Otherwise, I was surprised I wasn't colder.

Edit: On a side note to Sue.

I have ridden with a backpack and I don't like it, at least not for the type of trails we ride. This is for a few reasons:

First, most packs aren't designed to be used with a snow suit, the straps just aren't long enough (at least for someone my size, a small stature person might have an easier time). Wearing one feels like wearing a rubber band around your shoulders and back.

Second, riding a snowmobile on twisty trails is bumpy. Anything you have in the pack tends to slam into your back, no matter how tight you seem to have it cinched. It exacerbates the typical pain one experiences after a hard day of riding (shoulder pain, lower back pain, leg pain)

Finally, it throws off your weight distribution and turning ability. When riding you have to lean a certain way to keep things stable. It actually requires more effort that riding a typical two-wheeled vehicle, like a motorcycle or a dirt bike, because the wide track on the sled prevents it from leaning into corners as well as a bike.

Therefore, backpacks (or just about anything mounted high on the sled) tends to want to go the opposite way you need to lean. In the least, it means you'll have to use more energy not only fighting the sled to move how you want it, but fighting the pack as well. At worst, it could lead to your balance being compromised, which could lead to the rider being thrown off or having to ditch the sled to stop from rolling/crashing.

Instead, you'll find most riders prefer saddle bags. They make versions that can go over the back of the sled or over the center mounted fuel tank. They keep the added weight lower to the ground, which upsets the balance and handling of the machine less. With that in mind, you won't often find most day riders using them, as they typically try to ride as light and fast as possible. Saddle bags are more typical among those using the sled in a working fashion or those going on long trips that require the need to carry a lot of gear/supplies.

Snowmobile suits:


I disagree - you need something to insulate from the ground. The material in the suit gets compressed under you, so you need a little extra between yourself and the ground. (Which is why sleeping on the snowmobile is such a good idea).

You can disagree, it is a free world that way.

Actually my experience sleeping out was a bit different.
I found the biggest thing was it had to be cold enough that the snow didn't melt under me.
I also have mixed feelings about goretex. It either makes me sweat or it leaks. I found that any type of waterproof layer on the outside when it was cold trapped moisture in my clothes. Cold weather gear has to breath so that the moisture goes away. This includes boots and gloves.

My biggest problem sleeping in my skidoo suit was keeping my nose warm.

I will say that any extra insulation under you will help especially if it keeps the snow cold enough to stay dry.
The worst conditions are when the snow is close to melting already because then your weight will cause it to melt and then you end up cold and wet instead of dry and warm.


But if you have a decent suit you can sleep out in it quite well, and yes you can just lay down in the snow. Snow itself is a pretty good insulator when it is dry and fluffy. It is such a good insulator that the ground is often thawed underneath it if you dig down through it.
Water which is melted snow is just the opposite.

If you are really stuck then making a quinze might be appropriate too. If you dig them down a bit you get out of the wind and start picking up some of the warmth from the ground. Lets face it, being sheltered in a space that is just a bit below freezing sure beats being outside at 40 below losing heat to the winds and to the stars.
Usually snow shelters are not as warm as a lean-to and a big fire though.


THERE IS A BIG WARNING HERE.
If you are cold do not go to sleep.
Hypothermia makes you feel sleepy and if you go to sleep from the cold you might never wake up!
Hypothermia also gives the illusion of warmth as it shuts your body down.
Kind of like how your skin quits feeling cold or pain as frostbite sets in.
So warm up for real before you doze off. If it takes a fire to warm you then light a decent fire.
Then if you get cold you will wake up and can do a little warm up dance before going to sleep again.

"Now Sue, new guy at the fire, asking good questions. He's on the right track. Cut him some slack."

*giggle*

He was talking about the guys at a snowmobile forum -- since he's HERE, I'm assuming he's smarter than that!

And about the pack... did I say backpack? I really just meant pack, a bundle to take along.

I told a friend about the guys standing around all night in a hole, around a fire, and she laughed, too. Sorry! But is IS funny. There's a cartoon in there, somewhere...

Sue

I'm assuming we would be comfortable and B.S.ing would certainly pass the night quicker than huddling in a shelter trying to sleep/pass the night. And B.S.ing is what we do best. If it were a blizzard or extremely cold, I would certainly break out the shelter building equipment which would be with me, just wondering about sleep, if cold? Which was answered, and hadn't thought about the sleeping pad which would be bulky, had assumed a lot of pine boughs would suffice, will consider the inflatable therma rest type pad, but the seat off of my sled would keep my aa...butt warm. Snow mobiler's generally carry a wood saw, for unexpected tree parking jobs. So fire wood would be plentiful... And collecting it would be a warming episode, and pass some time as well.

Not totally unusual. During my month out in Alaska, folks from all over the Delta would "snow-go" into Bethel. It was the only big town in an area the size of Oregon. Long rides were 10+ hours (and I assume hitting some villages on the way for gas). There were definetely trails out there, so if you broke down, chances are pretty good someone would find you... and actually stop.

Jay,

Sometimes our attitude and reaction to the attitude of others
can be more important than anything.
http://www.amazon.com/Deep-Survival-Who-Lives-Dies/dp/0393326152

www.deepsurvival.com

In Gonzales's book he uses an example: snowmobiler who was
survival trained and rescue trained; snowmobiler died as a
result of bad (macho) decision.

Now, you started the thread for food and it drifted to fire,
suits, shelter. This kind of drift is not unusual on a
Survival Website. If you had posted on a food forum,
you might not have suffered all the unsolicited advice.
And I would be saying,
"You're crazy if you don't take pickles".

Serious-up, prepare for lecture.

I see snowmobiler survival stories on the local news, and
sometimes these guys get hurt, and they get colder when
they get hurt, and they cannot gather much wood when they
get hurt.

Snow can cover all burnable wood in an area.

One (or more) may be stranded above timberline.

Any wood does not burn as well at higher altitude.

Blizzards can cause one to take a wrong trail, even if
one has GPS. Blizzards can hamper one's efforts at keeping
a fire going. Blizzard or wind can make one much colder.

You are right that, if you keep adding-to your "pack", it
gets heavier, you might want to leave it behind, but I think
some tarp for shelter should be considered.

It seems like some may regard an overnight as:
only a travel delay, and opportunity to eat snacks.
It might turn out that way, but an overnight might be
excruciating or fatal for you or a friend.

Jay, you may know all this and have things well in hand,
but, other readers of this thread, may be real green.

I've read and heard the same thing about goretex from other who live where it's really cold. I like it a lot, though, because I don't have to worry about the rain changing to snow type of thing, which is miserable; and I like it because it blocks the wind really well. For me, when I walk around and don't burn too much energy, I don't have any trouble with moisture build up. If I'm active, I start unzipping layers to keep cool. That's one reason why I like a zip up vest and button up shirt for layers, as compared to pull-overs. It's easier to regulate the insulation. But here, it's not as cold as the great white north, so I have an easier time of it I'm sure.

For boots, a leather/goretex combination doesn't breath well enough for me, but I have a pair of Browning hunting boots that are goretex/thinsulate with a combination of leather and cordura nylon for the outer layer. The course nylon seems to make it more breathable, but it might be in my head.

For gloves, well, they usually make my hands cold. I don't know if you can ride a snomobile with mittens, but a big pair of leather/goretex/thinsulate mittens is great for walking around. I buy about a size big, because anything constricting makes my hands cold. As far as gloves goes, somewhere I found a pair of theoretically army issue ones, with yet again goretex/thinsulate/leather - but they also had gussets (or however it's spelled), like on a space suit so you're fingers can bend easily, and really big boxy fingers. They're pretty warm, but not as good as mittens.

I agree with almost everything you said, it is easy to see you have plenty of snow time experience. Just some words of caution:

Snow will always melt if you squeeze it hard enough (pressure melting). With cold, dry and fluffy snow that water re-freezes in the crystals without you seeing it. Over time, this process aids in turning fluffy snow into compact ice. If it's less cold that water may be visible or be able to soak into your clothes.

Fluffy snow is an excellent insulator. Solid ice is not. Even if you lie down in dry, powdery snow it is only a matter of time before your weight and body heat has turned that powder into icy, hard crunched snow - which (unlike powdery snow) will transfer heat away from your body. As you noted, that melted water will be freely available to speed up the cooling process in less cold conditions.

Bottom line: Always use a groundsheet or at least improvise something to that effect. Never lie directly on the ground or on snow.

Hike for Fun, under my and more... comment I always include a space tarp, and in one of my many kits, is a fist sized space blanket that I have always been skeptical of, but never unpaked because it is currently very small and my repacking skills lack.
The estimated reason for being out all night certainly vary but I believe they rank as: 1. went down something under different snow conditions later in day and the snow softened up to the point of having to wait for it to firm up again, to climb that hill, 2. out of gas due to either incredible stupidity, = but probably a lost and looking for way out too long under adverse visibility(now I have a GPS but batteries die), 3. multiple breakdowns, or multiple very stucks, 4. Hurt and unable to get to trailhead and not wanting to split up till? morning. 5.6.7.... any multitude of issues, but stupidity probably is the common denominator. But number one seems to be rather common among the spent the night snowmobile crowd. But Hurt and unable to get wood is a new thought, and I'll have to consider it, but the buddy system is a must for me, so I'm assuming we both aren't hurt, but you never know! Oh, yea, I almost forgot AVALANCHE, that could hurt multiple riders? Fuel and a stove might be a good idea?

One last post about clothing.

Mittens are always warmer than gloves made from the same materials.
Skidoo mitts are very warm and are usually pretty wind and waterproof. A lot of them are made with removable liners too.
Gloves inside mitts is an option.

The boots are normally made with removable felt liners.
Sorrel is a classic brand name, but there are a lot of other brands.
http://www.sorel.com/Product.aspx?top=1&cat=110&prod=140

With the removable liner boots it is common to have a spare pair of liners, so that you have a dry set ready to change into, kind of like having extra pair of dry socks with you.
It is hard to get boots to breath and still not get them wet from snow melting on them, so the removable liners are a compromise.

The US Army used to have a boot that was water proof inside and out so your foot didn't get the insulation wet. The boots worked but your feet sweated a lot and were wet all the time.
The Russians used to make boots that were just felt with no waterproof outer layer at all.
They worked to, just so long as it was cold enough to stay dry but they lost effectiveness as soon as it was warm enough for snow to melt on them.

For sweaty activities, Gor-Tex can't be beat. Snowmobiling is definatly a sweaty activity, and the premium snowmobile clothing is almost always Gore tex. It vents off the sweat vapor while remaining water proof. In my shell, I can lay on the snow and remain dry. Now cold is another matter, you definately want some insulation to keep you out of the cold and water your body heat and weight will probably create.

Hey, hold your horses!

Gore-tex is good stuff, but it does not possess magical qualities. It is waterproof, but it is by no means breathable enough to keep you dry in sweaty activities. I think a realistic assessment is that you will be 20% drier in Gore-tex than in a total "vapour barrier" garment (such as heavy-duty raingear). That 20% is a huge improvement from 0, but is a far shot away from being perfect. Those 20% is good enough to keep you fairly dry as long as you have a moderate level of activity and the totality of clothing is appropriate and functions well together.

For dry, cold conditions there are tons of materials better than gore-tex, including some natural fibers. The true benefit of gore-tex is that it is waterproof and allows SOME moisture to get through. Used correctly, it works great. Use it wrong and condensed vapor from your sweat will soak your middle layers and undergarments. Don't let the commercials fool you into believing otherwise!


The key is: DON'T SWEAT IT! Dress so you don't sweat excessively in the cold. Snowmobiling clothes are great for snowmobiling or standing still, but too warm for anything else. Layering principle (many thin layers, not one thick) is the best, but this may be problematic with a thick snowmobile suit. Use zippers to ventilate or remove clothing whenever you increase activity (such as freeing your stuck snowmobile). DON'T STRESS - DON'T SWEAT IT! Keep cool, take your time, do things properly, enjoy yourself - party on!




+1 - couldn't agree more! Having something underneath you is crucial if you want to sleep.

Add sum candy bars power bars and lots more
hight in sugar foods that you do not have to cook.
and you cen add jelo to hot watter and you got
a nice warm drink filled with sugar and much needed
carbs. or just have sum coffee.

litlefoot01

What if I'm cold and exhausted from trying to get the sled unstuck, I need a quick burst of energy and then some longer term energy. Is a candy bar going to do the short term and what is it that gets/keeps you warm? Carb's or what is it you want with you for the above scenario?

Maxwell House, and, I suspect, other brands, sell coffee bags,similar to tea bags, in both regular and decaffeinated. The individual coffee bags are sealed in foil, not paper like many tea bags. The smell and taste is excellent after months of storage: the foil does an excellent job keeping the product fresh. I occasionally drink decaff. at home; the jar version of decaff. get pretty stale by the time I'm half-way through. Not so with the foil-wrapped coffee bags.
The bags make a compact/easily rotated/satisfying/inexpensive addition to a car/snowmobile bag or BOB for those who need/want the caffeine/smell/taste.
Ditto for individual foil-wrapped servings of hot chocolate (Swiss Miss, and probably others).
Ditto for foil-wrapped creamer packs for the coffee (Cremora).
Ditto for some of the more expensive foil-wrapped tea bags (I can't think of any tea brands that come wrapped in foil at the moment).

Yes, fast and slow carbs. And water.

Fast carbs (= plain sugar) gives you the immediate boost. Slower carbs are more complex and takes a little longer to break down, providing you with more intermediate term energy. A good mix of those two prevents your sugar level to go jo-jo up and down. (called "sugar rush" accompanied by a "sugar crash"). And water. Your body needs water to process food. You need water and carbs to burn that body fat you carry around.

A good trick is snickers bar and a thermos of plain hot water and some instant chocolate drink. Enjoy your break and things start to look brighter. A mix of peanuts and other nice nuts (almonds, walnuts, whatever you like), chocolate, rasins and dried fruits will also give you a good mix of quick and slow carbs. You can buy some "trail mix" or make your own.


When the break is over, avoid trying to lift the snowmobile in one giant backbreaking struggle. If it was that easy you would already be free. Use your time and plan the work so you don't exhaust yourself. Use tricks like rolling in the snow to compress it, shovel the snow downhill and clear the path so you can turn the machine without moving a foot of snow with it, then slowly drag your sledge around in the downhill direction. Nice and easy does it....

Does protien have a place in this scenario, and what about fats?
Where and when do they kick in? Is Beef Jerkey helpful?

Fats are good for a slow, long burn. You'll get those out of nuts, chocolate, cheese, sausage, that kind of thing.

Protein is a very slow burn, nor does it burn as hot, but it makes all kinds of nasty waste products, so you'll need more water. Most animal protein sources have a lot of salt in them, so you need even more water.

Trick is, those aren't fast burst foods. These are entree, hunker down type things, because you won't want to be doing much that needs blood out at the limbs while you are digesting these. At least I don't.

One good thing to look at might be halva. Am_Fear recently brought it up, and I think it has been mentioned before. I'm always partial to Joyva, and it fine frozen.

Agree 100%. When combined with wicking layer on the inside it's very good. I'll add that goretex boots work great for me, because when I wear synthetic socks (which is always) it breathes enough for my feet to stay dry. If your feet sweat a lot it may not work as well for you.

Goretex also completely blocks the wind, which lets you use breathable layers on the inside, like fleece, to best effect. As an example, I'd much rather have a heavy fleece shirt with a goretex shell than some sort of windblocker fleece.