This thread is going to cost me. Am now researching alcohol stoves and duel-fuel. Here's the Trangia, which costs $35 at REI. Extremely enthusiastic customer reviews.

I would take a look at the Primus Eta Packlite

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hhCyUgP1CdY

It has excellent efficiency, built in wind shield, is very fast and is reasonably lightweight and compact.

http://www.outdoorsmagic.com/news/article/mps/uan/5930

For more compactness I will mostly carry an Optimus Crux folding stove tucked into the base of an MSR Isopro 8oz standard cartridge which fits neatly into a Primus EtaPower 1 Litre Pot, with a little room left over for a Brunton Firestorm Lighter, Primus fuel tool and a brew kit.

You should check out the Honey Stove, esp the video demo

http://www.backpackinglight.co.uk/product397.asp

I have never been a fan of alcohols stoves, even the best I have seen, a commercial pressurized unit fed the best fuel, had a pretty poor energy output compared to white gas. They also seem get weaker and finickier as conditions get worse. Usually when you most need them. I have seen a nice home made unit, which in good conditions boiled a quart of water in about eight minutes struggle to heat a cup of water at 35F in a misting rain and relentless wind. When we were borderline hypothermic and really could have used something hot to drink.

A similar situation with my old Svea 123 running white gas had it roaring like a jet engine and boiling water as fast as we could drink it.

The best thing I can say about alcohol stoves is that it will run, at least nominally, on easily available stuff like rubbing alcohol and the alcohol stove is a step up from the Triox and Hexamine solid fuel units which seem entirely suitable for heating up a GI canteen cup of instant coffee. As long as it isn't raining or blowing too hard.



While consideration should be given to ventilation and safety there also has to be recognition that CO in small amounts is a normal product of most combustion and in small amounts it is fairly well tolerated. It doesn't pose a major risk as long as common sense precautions are taken. If it wasn't smokers would be keeling over right and left.

The single burner propane stove puts out less CO than the four burner propane or natural gas stoves you find installed in many homes. Home appliance which are not vented outside.

Gasoline and kerosene stoves are IMO far worse at producing CO than propane or alcohol. Combined with their tendency to sometimes flare up I generally refuse to use them inside. In fact the reason I got the propane stove was because it was much more suitable for interior use.

T_Y :

My understanding is that CANOEDOGS is considering a special situation based on a worse case corruption of his favorite outdoors activities. He is considering what might happen if he was canoeing a remote area and for some reason, like a sudden change in the weather, he was dumped in the cold water and barely makes it to a wet and windswept shore with only whatever he has in his life jacket/survival vest. It is something of a singular predicament limited to whitewater rafters, offshore kayakers, and wilderness paddlers. One which most people will never face. But it is an interesting thought experiment.

Just brainstorming here but I would start with something that would provide heat fast, something that would work even after dunking and in strong winds and water spray. Something compact and relatively light, so it would fit in a vest. I'm thinking something like a flare would be a good start. Remove and flip cap and strike and you have a very hot fire that wind and rain won't touch. Burn time of ten minutes. So climb into a plastic bag and squat over the fire. After seven or eight minutes your warmed up enough to function and seek better shelter.

Follow, once in better shelter, with something light and compact like one of the smaller multi-wick candles. They won't allow you to do much actual cooking but you can heat up coffee, tea and broths.

On the other hand as a spelunker, often wading and swimming through cold water and risking hypothermia, stuffing myself into a garbage bag and squatting over a small fire, often a candle or carbide headlamp, is standard warming procedure.

In fact the more I think about it a carbide headlamp might be a good choice for CANOEDOGS. The lamp is compact and light brass unit that can be left unfilled. Activation is a matter of dumping an ounce of calcium carbide into the bottom and spitting a little water into the top. Water drips on the carbide producing acetylene gas. This comes out of an orifice under pressure and a spark igniter lights it. Producing a small white-hot flame that resists wind and rain.

Biggest issue is that the compact carbide headlamps are antiques. I have one made in the early 70s, a brass Premier unit that still kicks but those haven't been made for some time. I have carried a small carbide supply in wet caves without any issues but carbide is harder to get than it used to be and inexperienced users can face issues.

A flare and a multi-wick candle in a can are much more familiar and might conceivably serve.

There again one of those tiny and light Trangia alcohol stoves and six ounces of methanol might be better if your willing to overlook and work around the down side of alcohol I mentioned earlier.

For a vest survival stove, I'd go with an emergency esbit stove, a couple of tabs and a bic lighter.

For my travel kit, that clickstand/trianga combo looks like the way to go. An alcohol stove is easy to de-fuel. Empty and dry it wouldn't have any smell or danger, and I could store a couple of pints of alcohol in the car without any problem. Time to do some shopping.

For long term bug-in use, my multi-fuel explorer makes sense for me, because I heat with oil, so I always have 100+ gallons of fuel oil on hand. For short term bug-in use I'll continue to use my propane stove, because it's convenient and I personally don't mind using it inside.

I also now have a new challenge - learn how to make a functional alcohol stove from a couple of pepsi cans and a pocket knife. It doesn't have to be pretty, just has to be able to heat water up, maybe melt snow. Being able to do this might come in handy sometime.

That certainly will be a challenge - trying to melt snow with an alcohol stove.

Actually alcohol stoves are just to heavy in comparison to even a mid weight butane/propane cartridge stove when used for more than a few days out in the wilds simply because they are just to inefficient due to the poor specific heat properties of alcohol fuel. Alcohol stoves are certainly lighter weight than a gas cartridge stove but the fuel is twice as heavy as a butane/propane fuel for the same heat available. Alcohol stoves are also very slow and become less efficient in colder temperatures. Personally if you intend to survive in anything less than 10-15C for more than a few days then I would just simply forget about alcohol stoves and get a basic propane/butane cartridge stove.

http://www.bushwalking.org.au/FAQ/FAQ_Efficiency.htm

My alcohol stove is a Trangia burner, inside of which is a separate aluminum burner that weighs a fraction of an ounce. My stand is two bicycle spoke pieces bent into an inverted "U" and joined at one foot by a crimped .22case, with spoke caps on the free feet. I spread the free feet and get a "V" platform for my Snow Peak Ti solo cooker, which also fits it all inside. I have a foil wind screen.

I've used it at 12,000 feet at 35 degrees and breezy, with good results. It takes about twice as long as my Whisperlight to boil a pot of water, but is much quicker and easier to get going or put away.

I'd never use it for serious cold, water purifying or melting snow, but 500 ml of fuel lasts almost a week for my simple meal preps. My BOB has 22 oz of fuel.

That sounds impressive but the boiling points of water drops to around 89C @ 12,000 ft. It is much more difficult to raise the temperature of water at lower altitudes.

If we compare the Trangia mini setup and we want to boil the same amount of water compared to a 250ml or 8oz cartridge high efficiency butane/propane setup such as the Primus Eta Packlite system we would get the following;

An 8oz or 200 grams of propane/butane @ 100% efficiency will heat 26.5 ltres of water or 21 litres @ 80% (claimed by the manufacturer) to the boil.

The Total weight for the Primas Eta Packlite gas stove is 590gms (Eta Packlite) + 320 gms (fuel cannister + fuel) = 910 grams in total to boil 21 litres

The Trangia mini stove will require 306 grams of fuel @ 100% to boil 21 litres, typically the efficiency for the Trangia mini will be less than 50% (being generous) so the total fuel is 612 grams.

The Trangia weighs 320 grams and the trangia bottle weighs 112 grams giving a total 612 gms (fuel) + 112 gms (fuel bottle) + 330 gms (Stove and 0.9 litre pot and pan) = 1054 grams or 144 grams heavier (I have not included the wind shield weight)

The Trangia mini is also certainly limited to being a strictly one man affair compared to the Primus, which could conceivably be used for 2 man cooking. The Primus will also bring to boil a litre of water in less than 3 minutes. The Trangia will take at least 3-4 times longer.

The limitations and the greater weight for a alcohol stove become even more apparent when even more boiling capacity is required. The alcohol stove could simply not compete weight wise with the 500 ml 16oz propane/butane cartridge for the same heating capacity. The alcohol stove would end even heavier than a multifuel high performance expedition stove such as the Primus Omnifuel.

I know...and I probably wouldn't take an alcohol stove as my primary cooking stove for winter camping because of that.

Being able to make an alcohol stove that will melt snow would be handy for a car kit. For a large part of the year I can't keep liquid water in my car, but I can always keep alcohol. Also, even though alcohol has half the energy of white gas or kerosene, it would still be less weight than the snow it could melt.

Did you mean -10/-15C? That is pretty cold, and I probably wouldn't want to be out camping in it, at least not with that being the daytime temps. Even in January, daytime temps here are usually above 0F (-17C). If you meant +10/15C, well that would be the average winter indoor temp at my place. If you visit you might want to bring a sweater.

so it sounds like you're not really talking about building a fire instead of a stove, you just want a small vest stove. something you can carry on your person in the event you lose your gear (?).

FWIW, I've noticed most people seem to have stoves as a safety net in the event that building a fire is not an option (such as no wood available), or as a quicker and easier way to boil some water for cooking (which can be beneficial when it's dark or wet, or you're tired). I don't think that discussing the preferred stoves means alternate methods aren't also considered. The thread is titled "backpacking/survival stove", so it makes sense to me that backpack stoves (and not pocket stoves) are what have been discussed so far. But I like the idea of pocket stoves.


IIRC esbit tabs work wet or dry, yes? I could see that being handy that purpose.
Or as Art_in_FL mentioned, putting a trangia burner in a pocket should also work. The clickstands are on the expensive side, but pack very small so they might be pocket-friendly.

as an alternative to a clickstand, I've always admired this cheap, light and small stove setup which could be used with a trangia burner instead of a coke stove: http://zombiehunters.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=18507 (I don't know if Woods Walker is on this forum as well)