I am posting this idea here to see if anyone can run with it. First the "legal stuff" I am putting this idea/concept here for those of you on this list to take it and run with it. I think that this is a GREAT idea, but that is just me.

Most, if not all, of us here have taken the time to do due diligence in making survival kits, BOBs, and Get Home kits. For the most part I am wiling to bet that they don't float. This is where my thought comes into play.

Companies like Mustang have suspender styled life vests. The concept was to take the suspender styled life vest that opens when submerged and attaching it as either suspenders for your but pack styled kit or for your kit.

The reasoning for this is when you’re over or near water and your kit falls into the water you don't watch your life line fall to the bottom. After the auto open is submerged enough it would deploy the buoyancy device and thus your kit would be floating. Once you get your wits about you, you can grab your kit and swim to safety.

I came up with this idea when I wanted a less bulky alternative to what I do when I go over water. When I go around water my survival kit has its own Life Vest. This way if it goes over, I can recover it.


The logical aspect is that the buoyancy of the "life vest" would have to be enough to compensate for your bag. My survival kit weighs in at about 25 pounds (don't ask, and YES I know it is heavy) so I would have to find a buoyancy device that equals or exceeds that weight.



So, that is my idea.

Life vest in a pouch, auto-inflating

There are several fishing vests available with inflatable bladders so they can double as life jackets. The vests have enough pockets to comforably carry a good deal of gear. I have one that I wear when I go fishing on other people's boats. I know they always have plenty of fishing gear, but, the safety gear is sometimes lacking.

I don't have a detailed list, but, in my vest I easily hold things like a VHF handheld radio, strobe, pencil flares, mirror, whistle, dye marker, cyalume, some line, a knife, a modified version of Doug's pocket survival kit, and a millenium bar or two. If I go overboard, well, I have a fighting chance.

I know your concept was to marry a self inflation device with another kit. I've just found that the vest itself is a nice container. It's like a pilots overwater survival vest.

I get a similar effect by simply partially inflating the collapsible water carrier and canteens when and if it seems possible we will be around significant amounts of water. I have used them as floats to assist crossing water two or three times. Works great in the summer heat.

Even without added buoyancy I have found that because I use a lot of baggies and water resistant stuff sacks when packing that my pack tends to float fairly well. Canoeing in the summer with with camping gear, where a daily dunking is half the fun, our packs all tended to float pretty high. In fact so high that they tended to blow/float away. This prompted us to rig dummy cords on them. On the other hand the camp stove and griddle, understandably, sank like a rock.

To non-Americans who now have a very strange picture of American fishermen, suspenders in the USA = braces to hold your trousers up.
To confused Americans, suspenders in the rest of the English speaking world = things that women wear to hold up stockings in 1950s pinups.

Just in case anyone is now suffering post traumatic shock at the image of the USA's lakes and waterways populated by rugged outdoors men wearing inflatable lingerie.


ps. don't get started on fanny-pack ;-)

My understanding is that in the US of A we tend to call the belt that holds up stockings a 'garter belt'.

OK, if I understand this right you want something like the old "May West" type life jacket rigged to self inflate if you need to ditch?
Kind of like the EPIRBs (Emergency Position Indicating Radio Beacons) on ships are supposed to do.
It might even be able to rig it so it attaches to the outside of the kit.
I think the idea of compact flotation for a survival kit is a worthwhile idea to play with.

Even though when I boat or canoe my packs are all positively buoyant and sealed water tight the sleeping bags and clothes are bulky, so something less bulky for flying would be very desirable.

You gave a weight of 25 pounds. Since water weighs about 62 pounds to a cubic foot you should be OK for the 25 pounds with 1/2 foot of volume.
If you had 1 foot of volume it should float both you and your pack.

I am considering this idea of yours now. A PFD with a small CO2 cylinder should do it quite nicely.

Edit:
Jeff seems to have it roped,tied and branded.

I avoid water activated inflation systems simply because if inside an aircraft when it hits the water, the last thing you want is the PFD inflating before you egress. The same philosophy would apply to a separate kit.

If your kit is tethered, it needs no flotation.

I think most of the modern inflatable vests have a "manual only" inflation option, which would be handy for aircraft use as you mention. With the sailing one I have, which is also has a built in harness, you select manual or auto inflation when you arm it.

I have had the "opportunity" to have a suspender style vest auto inflate, as I went off the bow. Fortunately, it was my own stupidity that caused my misfortune, and it was in daylight. Still, I imagined that it could have easily been at night, and I might have been hit in the head by a spinaker pole, knocked out, and overboard. In that case, working on the bow at night, I hope I'd be clipped into the jackline on the boat, but, sometimes things happen.

I will say that those inflatables are not very comfortable, when they inflate, they snug right up around your neck. Not dangerously tight, just uncomfortable for any long period.

Just let a bit of "air" out using the oral inflation tube(s). Much more comfortable, won't decrease buoyancy.

Ive been recently looking at life jackets and life preservers from a more sporting angle - the difference being that its function is mostly to help you swim to safety.

Ive been watching videos of the collar type preservers - the ones that go around the neck and have a large floatation bladder at the front. Seems to me that these are almost impossible to swim in, except on your back.

Is anyone aware of any lifejacket designs that dont impede your ability to swim he way the collar ones do?

The only one that comes close is the military issue LPU-10/P. I havent had any experience with this type, but it looks like it was designed with a goal of enabling you to to keep your head high and out of the water, while leaving your arms free for swimming. Has anyone had any experience with this type of device?

"You know, that was the time I was most frightened, waiting for my turn. No sir, I'll never wear a life jacket again."

Captain Quint.

You might want to look at the ones intended for canoists, water skiers.
A lot of the modern designs are intended for more freedom of movement.

Here are a couple of neoprene water ski vests from Cabela's
http://www.cabelas.com/watersports-vests.shtml
The neoprene tends to be a bit sweaty for regular wear IMHO.

Here is another store with a selection of life vests for canoe, kayak or water ski.
http://www.coloradokayak.com/Mens-Touring-Fishing-Lifejackets-PFD

The buoyancy compensators used for scuba usually are made with the tank harness as part of them but there are some available which are separate.
Because they are meant to provide adjustable flotation. They are used both as life jackets and to balance the divers weight and the weight of the air in the tank so the diver doesn't sink to the bottom or struggle to much trying to swim down they are all pretty expensive.
They would not be very comfortable for wearing all the time either because of the extra stuff on them.

You might want to look at Mustang's products too.
They started out making survival suits and have a lot of clothing that gives you flotation as well as thermal protection.
These are their life vest pages
http://www.mustangsurvival.com/products/category.php?t=3&pg=2

This is the rest of the cataloge
http://www.mustangsurvival.com/products/

The only flotation systems I've used have been Navy issue. I wore an LPU-32 the last time I qualified. The only swim stroke required or desired was the breast stroke and it is performed before you inflate. After the vest inflates you are floating, not swimming.

If you do decide to swim after you inflate the vest, partially deflate the bladders using the oral inflation tubes as DR mentioned above and swim. Inflate via the tube when it's time to float again.

The problem with swimming while wearing most life vest designs is that you're fighting a design feature of the vest, which is to turn an unconscious person face up.

So you're basically looking for something to keep the kit afloat? (Not a life jacket). As long as it is (almost) waterproof it should float... (for a while). Doesn't matter if it's heavy, because it probably is bulky as well, and as long as you're not exceeding one kilogram per liter it will float.

When canoing, I've used bags and rucksacks lined with garbage plastic bags to that effect. Clothes, tent and sleeping bag are quite bulky even when compressed. When soaked through clothes themselves will most likely stay slightly bouyant to neutral (bobbing just below the water surface), but if there are any additional heavy items (such as an axe) those items will drag your pack down. If dry, clothes will keep quite heavy things afloat. The plastic liner will keep the water out long enough for you to salvage that bag. If the plastic is new and/or robust it will be almost totally water proof (you may have some small leaks around the opening). If used for a few days you will have some punctures and some of your stuff will be wet, some of it dry and some of it somewhere in between.

So my take on this - you don't need extra flotation, just make it water proof!

If anyone has used the the LPU-10/P or knows someone who has (or can direct me to some forum where I might people who have). I'd love to hear from you.

Thank you all for your input!
The answers here are realy helpful. Then again, that is why I put the idea here.

Yeah - its true. Ability to swim requires a lower center of floatation, and an orientation different from the 30 degree backwards angled body that life jacket designs aim for.

How about some form of backstroke? That's how I prefer to surface swim with scuba gear on (inflated BC, not using snorkle or regulator).

To the best of my knowledge, military flotation systems are not designed to help you swim. Swimming requires the output of energy that you need to retain in a survival situation. The PFD provides flotation so that you can keep your head in the air while not expending energy you may need to survive hours or days in the water. Once you inflate a PFD the farthest you should swim is to your liferaft or the helo hoist the Coast Guard drops.

That LPU-10/P looks rather clumsy. I don't see how that design would aid in swimming. You'd still need to deflate the bladders and with them under your arms, they'd seem to interfere with your stroke much more than the collar type PFD's.

The LPU-10/P does look kind of clumsy and I've read some people describing them as "designed by a madman", but its interesting that Mustang's newest tech seems to use similar principles, if not being inspired by the LPU-10/P.

http://www.mustangsurvival.com/lift/

Don't forget the .mil personal floatation system has to fit around ejection seat harnesses, g-suit, etc etc. I think the LPU-10/P was designed to fit in the leftover space.

Good point, not being an ejection sat type I forget about that design criteria -- makes it a bit more of a compromise than other systems.

When I did my qual I noticed that some of the collar types do not play well with helmets. When I inflated one of the PFD's you'd find under your seat on a civilian airliner, it caused a lot of upward pressure on the chin strap. Not as bad with the LPU-32/P.

Backstroke is what they teach divers to do on the surface over long distances. I think its because its partially because the BC/tank combo naturally orients that way, and also because with flippers you have a relatively powerfull backstroke.

Ive been watching videos of people using airline type PFDs, and wow do they look uncomfortable. Seems that they are designed to inflate tight around your neck so that you cant get them off.

When I finished the part of the qual requiring the airline PFD and needed to remove it, the helmet had to come off first and I mostly deflated the PFD in order to take it off. They're probably designed that way so that they won't come off inadvertently if you don't have the strap on correctly. They'll definitely keep you afloat.