This is my first post, I have replied to several and lurked here for a while, but this is my first. I respect your opinions, admire your knowledge and look forward to your helpful advice.

I understand that there are times when you need to be rescued and would do everything to assist in that outcome. I was in Hurricane Katrina. I have been in Blizzards in Vermont and Maine. I have survived tornados in Alabama. I guess my question is more for the EOTWAWKI scenario.

I don't know how this happened but, I have ended up with two sets of bug out equipment, one to survive until help arrives and more stealthy equipment to survive on my own.

Is this normal or is it just a sign of the times?
Am I just really messed up?
Is there any hope for me?

I personally keep all options open. Nothing like a few safety vests for when you want to be seen, and easily removed if not.

Well, my bug out clothes and most gear are in "low observable" colors, but wouldn't look out of place on a bus or in a Red Cross shelter, either (no camo). But I also have a blaze orange rain cover that reverses to olive drab, blaze orange bandanas, and a number of signaling devices. There are lots of woods hereabouts to hide out in during a sudden outbreak of temporary craziness. I don't expect it to happen, but "nobody expected the Spanish Inquisition," either.

I have a neon orange backpack and a black backpack.

Both have utility.

Welcome to ETS.

I personally think that if you're not planning specifically for it, then it just happens. It's a reflection of your shopping habits: REI versus Army/Navy stores vs. Hunters-R-Us down the road.

If you're like me, you grab bargains when you can and frequent a bunch of outdoor-oriented places. So while I have a blue Kelty backpack, I also have a coyote-colored BOB. My sleeping bag is bright blue from TNF, but I have a camo bivy bag. Most of my pants are khaki or OD, but tops are reds and blues. I do intentionally have a few blaze-orange items (hat, bandana), but mainly this was b/c I used to day hike in places that allowed hunting.

I think it just happened cuz something was on sale, or had features I liked. I suppose I could seperate stuff by "seen or not" but really, I just use what I feel most functional, at a rational price.

There seems to be a pattern developing......

Do I want to be found? Depends. If bugging out due to a city wide evac or emergency situation, then yes I would probably want to be found or at least file a 'flight plan' with my POC's. Found could just be putting a signal on my house if bugging in.

There's lot of reasons to not be found and some of those include when your bugging out and people know your coming to them, to flee threats and such.

Consider the fact that the story of the survivers throughout history has largely been a story about refugees.

Depending on the reason I had to bug out.

A lot of my gear is pretty drab.
I also seem to have a lot of stuff in black, but not so much any more.
I was in a store getting some winter clothes today and almost bought a fleece balaclava until I realized how much it looked like a Ninja hat.

Getting lost or found depends totally on the needs.

Military camo might not be the best camo either.
It tends to make you stand out in a crowd for one thing.

I might point out that areas with low populations are hard to hide in.
Almost anything you do signals your presence.
Cities and large crowds are easier to disappear into.

Lets see.... What did I wear to work today. Dark grey (field grey) utilities, sport shirt that is nearly coyote brown, and tshirt that is nearly foliage green, with my black bag of tricks and steal toed sneakers. It looks good on me, it is fairly professional so I can literally switch from warehouse supervisor to white collar in a couple minutes (mostly taking a sponge to the BoT, and tieing back or braiding my hair), and the colors let me blend in in the woods.

Why do I point this out- unless you are trying to stand out, you won't, unless you are trying hard NOT to stand out.

And that is how I normally dress, btw.

Although the colour of your kit can help if you want to remain stealthy the main rules for not being seen are;


Do not to stand up.

Do not pick an obvious piece of cover in which to hide.

Don't tell your neighbours where you are going.


As described in the HM Government Public Service Film Number 42 How not to be seen which was produced in the late 1960s and which can be viewed on Youtube.

Movement
Shape
Shadow
Color
Cover

Control those, and one controls visibility.

I just got a Kelty Redwing tonight based on the fact that in most situations (in my opinion anyway), my Voodoo Tactical bag I had been carrying would stand out more than a regular-looking backpack.

If I need to hide, I'm extremely good at doing it. I don't require the best in digital camo patterns to hide. Movement is the number one thing that gives away a persons location. Number two would probably be things looking out of place.

If I REALLY need to hide, I'm making a field-expedient ghilly suit.

NOOOBODY EXPECTS THE SPANISH INQUISITION!!! Classic. My stuff is a bit similar. Truthfully though, I don't buy gear and clothes on the basis of blending in, I just happen to like natural colors. The low keyness is an added bonus I guess. Of course I also carry my international orange bandana, reflective gear, etc. And its helpful to remember that most athletic/outdoor gear and clothing usually has some type of reflective material nowadays.

I tend to get my gear in green/grey and tend to dress in green/brown.

I solve the "I want to be seen" problem by carrying things like a pack cover, and a saftery vest in Orange with reflective stripes

Knew there was something I liked about you. A Monty Python fan.

I believe the US military uses the 5-S acronym:

Shape
Shine
Silouhette
Smell
Sound

Though, definetely, movement should be in there.

The toughest human to hide from in the bush is a trained, but color vision deficient person. Their mind has subconsciously learned to ignore color (more or less), and is looking for your movement (or the movement of your shadow), your lack of movement (Gee sarge, why is that one 6 foot patch of grass NOT blowing in the wind when all else is?), and shape.

Oddly enough, the first MEPS physical I took showed I am color blind (OH BOY AM I TOO!). When I had to go back just prior to leaving for basic though, they marked me as perfect in the vision area. I didn't argue, and got the job I originally wanted.

Supposedly, the color vision issue deals with red-light readable maps at night. I was told I would only see a blank sheet of paper. Never had a dime's worth of trouble, and was usually the one to go out and find lost Navy doctors or Signal Corps 2LT's.

Maybe there is a recently returned to the forum SF fellow that has some views on this subject? They are generally very adept at blending into their surrounding landscape and population...


BTW, welcome back.

This is quite a good study by Natick for the effectiveness of a range of camouflage patterns

http://www.scribd.com/doc/19823845/Photosimulation-Camouflage-Detection-Test

http://soldiersystems.net/2009/09/18/natick-camo-study-making-sense-part-ii/

The Natick results were described by a retired UK Special Forces Warrant Officer, "Nothing earth shattering; desert s@&* works great in the desert and green s@&* works great in the green area.".

As for the current US Army issue UCP or Universal Camouflage Pattern, it doesn't seem to be at all Universal since it doesn't work well in either desert or arid regions or work well in woodland either as well.

The so called Digital camouflage (multicam, spec4, UCP etc) is nothing really more than just a fashion statement or an attempt to make the camoflauge look more modern (to todays electronic gaming generation) even though digital camouflage materials has been around for more than 3000 years.

Am_Fear, I was part of a group study for the same project in the late 80's/early 90's. What they did was dressed dummies up, put them in various areas (woodland in our case), and we tried detecting them, first with no help (we walked a path), then with binos, then spotting scopes. There were several different types: the standard US camo pattern, tiger stripe, the british version, a variation on the german stuff, regular jungle fatigues similar to those worn in Viet Nam. Oddly, with my group, the most effective ones WE (didnt) see were the solid green jungle fatigues-they sort of blended in with everything. My unit was just randomly picked-we were just a regular infantry unit, nothing special. It was a neat learning experience though!

Desperado, I took the same test, and am like 80% color deficient. It SEVERELY limited my jobs in the Army-but, I went in to be a grunt, and they didnt have an issue with that (is that discrimination?!?!?!). I never once had an issue reading maps with a red light-using night vision gear either, which I was also told wouldnt work (no idea what they based that on!!!).

The thing that gives someone away, more than ANYTHING else, is movement. As has been stated above. Even well trained individuals can give themselve away by lack of it-when the wind blows, almost everything moves-except rocks and people. If you are observing an area for a while, you sort of catalog everything in your FOV. When the wind blows strong enough, you can sometimes pick out silhouettes-even if someone is using some sort of screen. Granted, this isnt something that people look for unless its their job...but usually movement, or unnatural LACK of movement, give away a person. Muted colors normally blend in, particularly at a distance. They human eye is easily tricked...but some things you simply cant replicate.

Sounds like you did TD at one of the specialty schools offered at the school for wayward boys outside Columbus GA also.

Odd that they let you have 11B being color blind. That wasn't allowed when I went in. But then neither was 95B, and that was my primary MOS plus the identifier B4 I picked up along the way.

They may have fudged it, lwtting me in-I know that I had to go for additional testing, and they signed off on it.

I had a break in service, and when I went BACK in, in 98, they werent going to allow me back because of it...I had to argue with the doctor, telling him I didnt DEVELOP it....I had it when I went in before...ultimately, they let me in. Again.

Would I want to be found?

After a natural disaster? Heck yeah!

After a "Red Dawn" type of invasion? ... no so much. (Probably best to leave the bright orange rainsuit inside the dark green backpack in that situation.)

Jackets from Left to Right; Tweed 109, Hyperstealth SpecAm 4, 5.11 British DPM.

The Tweed Jacket works remarkably well for concealment out on the hills during the spring and Autumn days in Scotland. I wonder how well it would perform in the Natick Tests.



I guess if your being hunted down by anyone wearing UPC out in the woods during the cooler months you'll probably see them way before they see you, what ever your wearing..

Beyond scenarios based on apocalyptic, and unlikely, 'running from authorities', or 'avoiding plundering hoards' scenarios, most of which are based on a misreading of reality and/or tactics, there are a few good reasons to maintain some ability to maintain a low profile.

IMO as more people take up hiking and camping the people themselves, particularly when they wear or use bright colored gear, become a form of visual pollution. When people use and wear subdued colors the situation seems calmer and less chaotic. A matter of aesthetics.

I also have been known to use subdued gear simply because people are social animals. I have found that if I set up a tent it isn't uncommon for people, particularly those who are less experienced in wilderness manners (exactly the sort who will be out in force after a major disaster) tend to try to set up right next to, sometimes on top of, my camp. Subdued kit and camp placement a bit farther off the beaten path than normal go a long way toward keeping people out from under foot.

On the other hand when you want and need to be spotted you need to have something that will stand out against the predominant background. Day-glow orange, blues, yellow and greens jump out at you. The military use identification panels with bright colors. A 2' by 6' piece of cloth in a bright color folded into a ground cloth, a bright hammock in the tent, or a distinctive sleeping bag liner are all options.

Generally there is little need for actual camouflage, Simple, and often less expensive, earth tones, dull greens, grays, and browns all virtually disappear once you get any distance. Deep and dark reds seem bright up close but once you add a bit of distance they appear often look brown or black.

I agree. I find blaze orange to be a particularly obnoxious color when out and about; it doesn't belong. Good color for hunters and folks trying to be seen, but I much prefer subdued colors that blend in. Solid OD hides well in a wide range of environments and in general subdued tones, not necessarily camouflage, hide well if you don't stand up.

(link added)

Brilliant

the things to think of for concealment when i was in the military were:
shape
shine
shadow
silhouette
spacing
surface
movement

the worst is shine; people send signals to aircraft with a little mirror. in the british army they gave us everything in camouflage, then issued shiny mess tins!
concealment is a fantasy option, can anyone give an example when not being findable was helpful in a natural disaster?

but you specifically say 'I guess my question is more for the EOTWAWKI scenario.'
and the only realistic scenarios that could bring the US to it's knees is a nuclear war. In which case why hide yourself?
from who? why would they be looking for you? "The population has just gone through the floor; there are cities to empty, but we'll go into the woods and if we find someone in an orange jacket we'll have him"
the only reasons to conceal yourself in a disaster is because you are intending on doing something criminal. then running away and hiding. otherwise you want to be as visible as possible. no one is going to come for you if you are trapped by fire/rubble/water if they don't know you are there.
The Sock