Sue, I generally have a great deal of respect for your posts, but this one touched a nerve with me. Please don't take it personally.

This topic - and where the discussion has gone - hits a bit close to home. You see, I was in the World Trade Center on 9/11. I personally knew people who died at their desks (or trying to find their way out - they were last heard from at their desks and didn't make it out).

Before you criticize the people who stayed put, it's helpful to remember the may things that changed from pre-9/11 to post-9/11.

It used to be, if you were on a hijacked plane, the common wisdom and training was to do whatever the hijackers wanted, and nobody would get hurt. Of course, nobody would think of following that advice now.

But here's something that has not changed: in NYC hi-rise office buildings, in the event of a fire we are trained to evacuate the fire floor, and the three floors above and below. In fact, if you are evacuated from your desk, you are told to re-enter the building after descending four flights of stairs, and not to continue all the way to the lobby. Most buildings were not constructed with the appropriate systems to evacuate all of the occupants. If they tried, the fire department would have no way of getting up to the fire floor.

So it's not so surprising that people did not evacuate on their own - we have been trained over and over again that self-evacuation is NOT what you are supposed to do. This training continues to this day, and is supported by the fire marshals and FDNY. Nobody ever considered that what happened on that day could happen, and unfortunately, the training that generally made emergency responses work more smoothly cost lives.

That said, there is a large group of people working in NYC these days who routinely ignore this training and bug out early and often. As you may be able to guess, I'm firmly in this group!

About 9 years ago my office was in a lease space connected to a building that was being remodeled. The entire structure shared a fire alarm system, and it included a large cabinet shop. After weeks of false alarms 8 - 10 times a day, the alarms went totally ignored by all.

One evening working late, the alarm went off again, and my coworker and I ignored it again.

It was the Fire Fighter in full turn-out gear and SCBA that stormed into my office that got me moving... Seems the adjacent cabinet shop was fully involved, but the multiple fire walls and distance had kept all the smoke/fumes out of the building. We heard the sirens, but that was an hourly occurrence since we were located less than 300 feet from a very large fire station.

Lesson learned, GET OUT

That was a very interesting post.
I am usually outside either building high-rise towers or industrial plants like refineries.
My response to alarms is evacuation to muster points far enough removed from the scene both for safety and to allow emergency personnel a clear access route.
Unfortunately in a situation like the WTC bombing a normal muster point likely would not have been far enough away.

High-rise buildings have always had a problem with proper evacuation plans. There is no simple way to provide enough exit points, even if it was architecturally possible the cost in floor space would be prohibitive. You would end up losing more area than you gained by adding the extra floors.
(Lets not even mention wheel chair accessibility here)

Thank you Jesselp for pointing out the vertical traffic problem and the limits it places on evacuation plans.

They weren't nice enough to tell us when the drills were. Drills or false alarms were unannounced & more than a few times were shirt sleeves in 40* weather. I tend to think drills because I don't remember emergency units showing up.

Jesselp, I am not taking offense at your post --- I am assuming that you are totally correct.

"So it's not so surprising that people did not evacuate on their own - we have been trained over and over again that self- evacuation is NOT what you are supposed to do."

No one is going to 'train' me to ignore what could turn into a life-threatening situation. NO ONE. If the people in command (and I simply don't care if it IS 'supported by the fire marshals and FDNY') are of the opinion that they are going to do my thinking for me, they are mistaken (and out of their effing minds).

Their departmental egos and assumptions helped cost 2,605 people their lives, and injured a few thousand more.

How many disasters were followed by bureaucrats saying, "But we didn't think anything like this would ever happen"?

Just because something hasn't happened doesn't mean it won't.

Sue

It "helped" that the APs son was in my homeroom - we were not offically told, but we all knew

Alarms go off I get out while checking that the area I am exiting to is safe. What I would have done on 9/1 will never be known. Would I have been far enough away when the towers went down? I hope so. But the EX-firefighter in me may have had me helping people leave the building.

Jesselp -- I will not even begin to try and imagine what that day was like for you and the days, weeks, months and years that followed. Just reading accounts of being in the WTC is chilling. What we in Washington went through that day, especially those of us who were in certain high-profile targets, cannot be fully appreciated by those who weren't there. It was surreal, and I don't think that I will ever get totally over it unless I lose those memories.

Have you read "102 Minutes?" I was fascinated by its discussion of the lobbying over the NYC building codes which resulted in the 1968 changes in the code that made way for construction of the WTC.

Since Desert Storm, friends and I had been saying it was not a question of whether DC would be hit someday, but only when and how. Yet we stayed. We stay because we don't believe, or choose not to consider, that it will happen in the next second, or the next hour, or this day. And this becomes home and career base, so we stay.

When it happened on 9/11, when the Pentagon was hit and news reports of truck bomb at the State Department and fire at the OEOB and more incoming hostile flights, we were stunned. Many were stunned stupid. The images of what was happening at the WTC and smoke pouring out of the Pentagon, it was an indescribable situation to be in as it was unfolding in real-time.

No one can really know what they're going to do in such a crisis situation until the situation arises. Hopefully the right instincts will prevail. Having these discussions, I think, increases the chances that we'll do the right thing if an emergency situation arises.

If something happens this afternoon, I will be shocked at that instant. But better prepared than on 9/11. Better prepared for anything: terrorist attack or an accidental fire.

Am_Fear_Liath_Mor, thank you very much for mentioning the elephant in the room.



and your second post re: structural steel and fire.

Part of my mindset of being equipped is being open to the "unthinkable" as well as laws of cause and effect (whether they be psychological, social, governmental or physical).

Experience has taught me that governments and organizations can lie, deceive, withhold information or cover up information -- even in "unthinkable" ways. This is a necessary truth through which I must filter facts, rumors, lack of information, etc. when faced with a call to evacuate or to respond to an emergency. Typically, of course, such responses must be made quickly, with incomplete information and some emotional and physical turmoil.

I understand the need for community-mindedness and the efficiency of habitual compliance, but I'm working to "untrain" my indoctrinated mentality of compliance. The aftermath of 9/11 has especially helped me in this regard. Now I am loathe to relinquish my self-reliance and personal responsibility to "officials."

Speaking of fire alarms - we just had an alarm up on the 10th floor of the building I work in (I'm on the 8th) - folks did the right thing (evacuate down 2 floors - aka my floor), but the bad one - when they grabbed the fire phone - NO ONE ANSWERED!! 10 minutes - no one answered - many just walked out. The only reason I knew was my office is right by the lobby/staircase where the phone is

I saw what was going on, had my bag grabbed, let the folks on my floor know what was going on, and was standing by the warden phone (as I'm the 8th floor warden).

We got the all clear

What was interesting was that they got the 'alert tone' (aka the 'Macys tone') which is no longer supposed to be used. For the last N years (I think it was changed post 9/11) is that you ever get the 'full alarm' or NOTHING