These thoughts originated over on the 'Gentleman's Pocketknife' thread.

From a (cynical) woman's point of view...

Do men of any age have ANY IDEA how decent manners elevates their 'rating' with women? I mean, REALLY. Those who don't have manners obviously don't have a clue, and I'm sure the ones who do don't realize what an incredible difference it makes.

A gentleman (in the original meaning of the word) today stands out like a beacon among a bunch of rocks --- they absolutely GLOW. And it's mainly because there aren't many of them.

Most guys behave like two-year-olds their entire lives. They must think the world revolves around them and what they want. They want sex and a mommy to take care of them (Freud was probably dead on with his Oedipus complex). Well, grow up and join the Real World. It's not too late to take lessons in manners.

What is truly amazing to women is that most men haven't got a single clue about how to go about getting what they want, and it's really, really basic:

STANDOUT MANNERS WILL GET YOU SEX.

How's that? Simple enough?

Here are a few really important basics:
* Don't spit. It isn't macho, it's repulsive.
* STOP LYING! Lying as easily as you breathe is NOT a recommendation.
* If you smoke or chew, stop. Licking an ashtray or spittoon is not high on any woman's list.
* If you don't know how to dress properly, LEARN. That scruffy look doesn't attract the higher-class woman. Why would she want to appear to be supporting a homeless guy?
* If you meet a woman you like and she doesn't like you, you aren't going to change her mind, so move on.
* Don't call, text or email a woman 30 times a day, even if she isn't working, as it means you're either a control freak or a stalker-type personality, and both are creepy.
* Public displays of affection are just showing off.
* Avoid showing off. Guys go for big things, women want you to do the little things. This alone can make or break you.
* Learn to take care of yourself. If you can't do your own laundry, clean your own place, take out the garbage before it smells, pick up your own dry cleaning or have rudimentary cooking skills, hire a maid. Ditto babysitters.
* If a relationship starts okay and then deteriorates, don't force her to get a restraining order.


Bernard Bailey: "When they discover the center of the universe, a lot of people will be disappointed to discover they are not it."

Sue

Perfect. I am printing this off for my 19 year old son. He probably won't pay any attention to it now but, perhaps, someday ...

I'm a happily married man and have followed the advice you list for decades (well, it took a while for some of it). I honestly didn't behave well so I could get what I wanted - just felt better when I wasn't being an idiot. But, the result was/is a great wife and a great life.

They could teach this stuff in school but it wouldn't do much good I guess. Men have got to figure it out for themselves.

If I was smart I would write a similar list for women.

I don't understand a thing you just said.

My grandfather summed it all up when he told me:
"Don't grow up to be a cafone."

So why am I still single? Oh wait, that's kind of by choice.

For the guys out there that can't figure most of these ones out, you'll still stand out if you can figure out a few of the basic rules, then move to an area where NONE of the guys figured out ANY of the rules!

Yup, you too can mediocre your way to greatness! lol


Seriously, good post Susan. I'd like to think that I have most of these down, but I'm sure I fail at times. Like once I'm out of work, it's Tshirt and shorts. But I hear I clean up good. Interesting it says nothing about cheating - maybe that's supposed to be too basic?

If I can find a good cook, he'll need a restraining order against me.

;-)

Susan, that's a wonderful contribution.

I make it a matter of pride to be a better man than I already am - that makes it an iterative process and, speaking from experience, it doesn't take many iterations to make a guy stand out with respect to both 'Manliness' and 'Gentlemanliness.'

There's a piece of advice I maintain for my bachelor friends (and myself) - take a weekend and go to 1) a bowling alley, 2) a laundromat, and 3) a Starbucks. Take a look at the guys you find in each of these venues. This, my friend, is your competition. As Susan said, it doesn't take much.

"There are some things which cannot
be learned quickly, and time, which is all we have,
must be paid heavily for their acquiring.
They are the simplest things,
and because it takes a man's life to know them
the little new that each man gets from life
is very costly and the only heritage
he has to leave.

"Every man's life ends the same way, and it is only the details of how he lived and how he died that distinguishes one man from another."

-Ernest Hemingway

But that doesn't mean we can't get help along the way. I didn't have very good role models growing up, but that didn't turn out to be much of a handicap as the interest was there. Latent, yes, but still present.

Things that might help: Esquire magazine, Mollod and Tesauro's "The Modern Gentleman - A Guide to Essential Manners, Savvy, and Vice," and the Thin Man movies. Oh, and there's no motivation like not wanting to be an idiot around a pretty girl

I've written a fair amount on etiquette and dress - rather than clog the thread with a wall of text that nobody cares about, if anybody's interested just PM me.

I can't argue with your facts!!!!

P.S: No, I'm not dead yet!!

To this day, I am still thankful my high school had an assembly every prom season to teach etiquette and manners.

"If I was smart I would write a similar list for women."

That would be wonderful!

And I'm not saying that you need to be dressed like James Bond all the time, that would be stupid. Appropriate to conditions, is what I meant. Perfect all the time would be scary! Remember the Stepford Wives?

Wheels, they actually did used to teach basic manners in school. And handwriting. And history.

Knowing good manners is like having a firesteel on your keychain: you have the choice of using it or not using it, but if you need it, you've got it. Better than the other way around.

Sue

I was thinking similarly that ladies are few and far between nowadays too.

I will always hold a door open etc. Funny it's the really old ladies and/or mothers that seem to appreciate politeness and good manners. Not knocking any of you fine young ladies on the forum. It is just my observations.

Many girls and young women are more rude than the men. Or so it seems sometimes.

Thanks for the reminder Susan

I think I have done Ok for most points except this one



Those days are gone when I would wear ANYTHING and it looks great on me. Now, with a big waist line, I can hardly find anything that can make me look good. LOL

She deserves better than that, I know.

Actually, I have been thinking about this since last week when I read something about men & women appearances. Specifically it was about husband & wife . I am trying to figure something to change my lifestyle and get 'younger' for her.

IT guys dress atrociously bad. They often don't comb their hair or don't use tuck in their shirts. I have seen this often.

what about women who drink too much booze? I find intoxicated women to be a major turn off.

If only it were that simple.

Good thoughts Susan, it's been a long time since I had lessons in manners -- they didn't take. I found the article at the AoM site on Cultivating your gratitude very good reading. I say thanks and leave a tip, but that's rather mechanical and doesn't really communicate. A tip doesn't say thank you, "Thank you" says it.

Susan, i thought that this was your personals ad,

Strong, independent, cynical woman seeks man with tractor, must send photo of tractor.

Here is the photo,



Of course staying true to form for a personals ad the photo is a few years old, there is a lot less paint on the bucket now.

Maybe we should all nominate Susan to be the moderator of of a new forum on relationship survival. I know that it is something that i could use help with from time to time.

While in college, women called me the "best mannered guy" they've "ever met". At work, I'm "the only gentleman". Yet somehow, I'm 24 and single since the day I was born.

I don't doubt girls admire the attributes outlined in the OP, but this



is 100% false. I've got proof.

Or rather, haven't.

P.S. I don't dismiss the possibility the OP refers solely to adults and I just have to hold out some 5-10 more years for the sex appeal to kick in.

I'd have to agree.

It's confidence.

If you're confident, it won't matter what they say. You also probably won't freak out when she says your food taste like crap (Yes, I know I have a greater chance of being propelled to the Andromeda Galaxy than a woman actually being direct and telling me the truth) or the that she's not interested.

I believe the rules are just BS. Put their to protect fragile minds. Just be yourself, but always evaluate if there is something you can change for the better. Plus, I like to not be perfect, I cannot disappoint them, only impress them.

While I do not agree with all of the list there is something to it. Just ask my wife of 34 years. I'm not perfect, just the right match for her.

Dude, aim higher. You know, the 30-something divorcees. They've got the experience to recognize a decent quality guy, after being burned already. Plus, well, there's other experience they have. Plus they tend to have decent jobs, their own place, and usually have stopped partying to the point where they wander off with the wrong guy.

Girls in early 20's are "vibrant" "outgoing" and dumb. Really, a lot don't know what they want, don't know a good thing when they see it, and are just all around too hyper. Like a good wine, they have to decant a bit.

+1, that was worth repeating.

Definitely. +2!

Sorry, Sue, but Rodion and ki4buc are right.

Don't get me wrong, manners and civility are crucial (and the lack thereof are inexcusable). But unless they are mixed with at least 50% "eau du dominant male," a good-hearted, well-mannered, stand-up guy is commonly mistaken for the chauffeur, and treated as such by the female contingent.

I agree about having manners and a lot of stuff on your list... but some I don't. It almost seems like you only want to date someone who is PERFECT. Good luck with that :P And, I know plenty of women who find the opposite of certain things on your list attractive or a quality they wouldn't mind in a man.

Just saying, different strokes for different folks.

Gentleman: OED definition thereof:

A cad who has not been sussed yet.