#183197 - 09/25/09 09:56 PM
Wasp stings and fireants
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Member
Registered: 02/02/08
Posts: 146
Loc: Washington
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I recently had a discussion with my veterinarian concerning hymenoptera stings and the efficacy of using straight bleach on the sting site. He claims that this provides immediate sting relief as the base neutralizes the formic acid in the venom.
I am interested if anyone has had experience using this treatment for fireant stings in the South...
I will let you know how effective this treatment is on wasp stings, in my line of work at least one person from my crew gets stung daily.
If anyone gets a fire ant sting, i would appreciate any feedback to this treatment. It is supposed to be complete and immediate relief.
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#183200 - 09/25/09 10:08 PM
Re: Wasp stings and fireants
[Re: Tarzan]
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Pooh-Bah
Registered: 09/15/05
Posts: 2485
Loc: California
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...in my line of work at least one person from my crew gets stung daily... Interesting home remedy. If your people are getting stung almost daily, aren't you running a high risk that someone is going to become sensitive to the wasp venom and have a bad reaction one of these days?
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#183201 - 09/25/09 10:31 PM
Re: Wasp stings and fireants
[Re: Arney]
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Pooh-Bah
Registered: 12/18/08
Posts: 1534
Loc: Muskoka
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There is a lot more in the venom than just formic acid. It is not the acidity of the venom that causes the pain. Even if it was then adding chlorine bleach which is an acid should make it worse.
Household bleach and ammonia are both pretty harsh chemicals. Be sure to dilute them and remember to never mix the two.
Household bleach is strong enough to burn human skin. Don't put it on stings
Ammonia seems to be more effective than bleach and is the base for a lot of sting lotions.
The classic would be the "After Bite" dauber.
I am not sure but I think they use a solution of about 3% ammonia.
I will repeat this statement, Chlorine bleach will burn your skin if you are not careful to dilute it a lot. It is dangerous material.
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May set off to explore without any sense of direction or how to return.
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#183203 - 09/25/09 11:22 PM
Re: Wasp stings and fireants
[Re: scafool]
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Pooh-Bah
Registered: 09/15/05
Posts: 2485
Loc: California
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Even if it was then adding chlorine bleach which is an acid should make it worse. In the practical sense, bleach is actually highly alkaline, like around pH 11. While it's true that the active compound in bleach is hypochlorous acid, the bleach that we find in a bottle has sodium hydroxide added to it to make it highly alkaline. I posted on this topic a long time ago, but this is done to preserve the active ingredient in this highly alkaline state. Otherwise this highly reactive compound would break down and quickly become ineffective in storage. Still, I agree that bleach isn't something to mess around with lightly.
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#183212 - 09/26/09 12:54 AM
Re: Wasp stings and fireants
[Re: Arney]
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Old Hand
Registered: 11/09/06
Posts: 870
Loc: wellington, fl
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To make the bleach and ammonia work, you would have to get it next to the hymenoptera venom, which would in turn require injecting it down the wound tract...please do not do this-these chemicals will damage the healthy cells near the wound and invite an infection. Current medical science does not endorse the use of bleach or cleansers for insect envenomation. Topical cortisone and oral benadryl are effective for local reactions and available otc. If the reaction extends beyond local swelling to generalized hives or airway involvement, get emergency medical help fast, adrenalin and steroids. Infection-cellulitis around the insct bite-is lots scarier than it used to be, cuz the antibiotics are not working anymore.
_________________________
Dance like you have never been hurt, work like no one is watching,love like you don't need the money.
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#183231 - 09/26/09 12:26 PM
Re: Wasp stings and fireants
[Re: Arney]
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Pooh-Bah
Registered: 12/18/08
Posts: 1534
Loc: Muskoka
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Even if it was then adding chlorine bleach which is an acid should make it worse. In the practical sense, bleach is actually highly alkaline, like around pH 11. While it's true that the active compound in bleach is hypochlorous acid, the bleach that we find in a bottle has sodium hydroxide added to it to make it highly alkaline. I posted on this topic a long time ago, but this is done to preserve the active ingredient in this highly alkaline state. Otherwise this highly reactive compound would break down and quickly become ineffective in storage. Still, I agree that bleach isn't something to mess around with lightly. Well, OK. The sodium hypochlorite reacts with water to produce the hydrochlorous acid? So in the end it is an acid solution, or did I just get that totally wrong? (Note: I am not a chemist, but pouring toxic chemicals onto your skin makes no sense to me at all. Read the material safety data sheets on these chemicals and shudder)
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May set off to explore without any sense of direction or how to return.
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#183235 - 09/26/09 01:47 PM
Re: Wasp stings and fireants
[Re: scafool]
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Pooh-Bah
Registered: 09/15/05
Posts: 2485
Loc: California
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The sodium hypochlorite reacts with water to produce the hydrochlorous acid?
So in the end it is an acid solution, or did I just get that totally wrong? This may sound confusing, but an "acid" doesn't necessarily result in what a non-chemist normally thinks of as an "acidic" solution (i.e. very low pH). The active ingredient in bleach may be an acid, by definition, but a normal, diluted bleach solution is about pH neutral since there is so much water compared to anything else. Think of it this way--sugar is a carbohydrate, but putting a pinch of sugar in a big glass of water doesn't make that solution a "high-carb" drink. However, the home remedy mentioned in the OP is using "straight" bleach, right out of the bottle, and that solution is highly alkaline because sodium hydroxide is added to the bleach for storage.
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#183247 - 09/26/09 03:07 PM
Re: Wasp stings and fireants
[Re: Arney]
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Member
Registered: 09/20/09
Posts: 158
Loc: MO, On the Mississippi
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I have used a tobacco poultice on a wasp sting, it worked for me. imo i think that bleach and ammonia either one would be overkill. But i grew up around wasps (mud and paper) and got stung a lot as a kid.
Jim
_________________________
Jim
Do you know where your towel is?
Don't Panic!
I have an extra.
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#183352 - 09/27/09 07:49 PM
Re: Wasp stings and fireants
[Re: nursemike]
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FigTree
Unregistered
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Nurse Mike nailed this one.
Advoidance is the best solution.........
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#183411 - 09/28/09 11:55 AM
Re: Wasp stings and fireants
[Re: Tarzan]
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Newbie
Registered: 03/15/07
Posts: 31
Loc: Guyana, South America
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I think using straight bleach might be too strong and can burn and peel skin.
My advice is to get a tube of Anthisan cream and keep it handy. Applied to most insect bites, it will provide excellent relief after about 5 mins.
Nas.
_________________________
"Things to know: a trade and how to swim"
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#183412 - 09/28/09 12:47 PM
Re: Wasp stings and fireants
[Re: Naseem]
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Stranger
Registered: 12/15/06
Posts: 16
Loc: KY
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Old wives Tale......
Put a penny over the "Bite/Sting" and it will draw out the venom. Tape it over the site overnight and there will be no soreness in the morning.
Never tried it but I haven't been stung in years either.
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#183451 - 09/28/09 11:54 PM
Re: Wasp stings and fireants
[Re: Naseem]
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Addict
Registered: 03/15/01
Posts: 518
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I'm not sure Anthisan cream is available in the U.S., but it is an antihistamine cream. Probably benedryl cream would do the same thing.
There is sound advice in this thread from two medical professionals, amidst home remedies that "may" help and "might not" do harm. Primium non nocere.
Some of my woods buddies are good ole country boys. They'd put napalm on poison ivy; waste good whisky on a cut; slash and suck a snake bite; smear butter on a burn. I just hope I'm never stung, bitten, or injured to the point that I can't ward off their attempts to help. I rememember watching silently while one of them painted another's sadle sored rump with "Skin Shield Liquid Bandage and Pain Reliever". Man, the hollering almost caused the horses to stampede.
Primium non nocere -first, do no harm.
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#184016 - 10/02/09 03:43 PM
Re: Wasp stings and fireants
[Re: NAro]
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Addict
Registered: 03/20/05
Posts: 410
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Meat tenderize contains papraine, which I think helps break down the venom in stings. It works pretty good.
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#184084 - 10/02/09 11:22 PM
Re: Wasp stings and fireants
[Re: sodak]
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Addict
Registered: 03/15/01
Posts: 518
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Personally I've never found that(papain)to be the case.. YMMV. But it is a single-purpose addition to a FAK, and I tend to go for products with multi-purposes. I've used Benedryl cream or .5% cortisone cream (I think I have one with a bit of lidocaine in it for topical pain relief.. but not sure of the lidocaine) for stings (mosquito to hornets), poison ivy, "boat butt" (rash from days in a wet bathing suit) etc.
But in essence this is a matter of comfort more than anything I'd consider critical. Keep any of the above problems clean and avoid scratching (risking bacterial infections if you scratch), and you probably going to survive.
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#184238 - 10/04/09 02:34 PM
Re: Wasp stings and fireants
[Re: NAro]
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Member
Registered: 02/02/08
Posts: 146
Loc: Washington
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I guess I should have framed this question different. Since I already carry concentrated bleach in my kit as a water purification agent, its uses could be expanded to include relief of hymenoptera stings.
I can attest to the efficacy and immediacy of the concentrate on stings. As soon as a few drops are dribbled onto the sting side and rubbed in, the pain is eradicated. There is no post-sting itching at the site and swelling is halted.
Immediately after the bleach was applied, it was flushed off with copious amounts of cold water, thereby assuaging worries about chemical burns. Having worked around pool chemicals for many years, I have never had bad side effects if immediately washing the concentrate off skin.
I would like to remind many of you that close minded people tend to be poor survivors. I am not advocating for any particular treatment, but dismissing things out of hand without consideration has been the road to ruin for many folks in emergency circumstances
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#184270 - 10/04/09 10:54 PM
Re: Wasp stings and fireants
[Re: Tarzan]
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Addict
Registered: 03/15/01
Posts: 518
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I would like to remind many of you that close minded people tend to be poor survivors. I am not advocating for any particular treatment, but dismissing things out of hand without consideration has been the road to ruin for many folks in emergency circumstances Sorry... I missed it. Didn't notice anyone being closed minded or dismissing things out of hand without consideration. I thought people were offering thoughtful opinions. Silly me.
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#184281 - 10/05/09 12:47 AM
Re: Wasp stings and fireants
[Re: NAro]
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Pooh-Bah
Registered: 12/18/08
Posts: 1534
Loc: Muskoka
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I would like to remind many of you that close minded people tend to be poor survivors. I am not advocating for any particular treatment, but dismissing things out of hand without consideration has been the road to ruin for many folks in emergency circumstances Sorry... I missed it. Didn't notice anyone being closed minded or dismissing things out of hand without consideration. I thought people were offering thoughtful opinions. Silly me. Naro, are you being sarcastic? Nicely done. Tarzan, I am So Sorry about being closed minded. Here let me try to correct that failing on my part! From http://www.fireant.net/Bites/Home Remedy for Treating Fire Ant Bites:
There are numerous home remedies for fire ant bites. We list some here for educational purposes only, with no guarantee that they will work.
Please Note: If you have an allergic reaction to fireant bites,
please seek medical attention, rather than trying a home remedy.
* Take an antihistamine (like Benadryl) to help prevent allergic reactions and swelling
* After washing the bites, quickly (within 15 minutes) apply:
o Worcestershire sauce. Cover the bite(s) with a paper towel and saturate with the sauce. Read more.
o Topical steroid cream such as a 1/4% or stronger hydrocortisone cream.
o Baking soda and water (thick paste)
o Bleach and water (half and half)
o Meat tenderizer and water (thick paste)
o Alcohol
o Ammonia alone, or alternately applying ammonia and hydrogen peroxide with two rags, cotton balls, or paper towels.
o Vinegar. (This is the suggested solution for use with box jellyfish.)
o Crushed aspirin (thick paste). May help even after a day.
o Salt (thick paste)
o Tea Tree oil (may also be good for other insect bites, such as, chiggers, fleas and mosquitoes)
o Aloe jell
o Dishwashing liquid
o Freshly cut onion
These can reduce the pain and itching. You can carry a small spray bottle of one of these mixtures with you to use immediately if you know you will be in an infested area that is not close to the house.
* Apply an ice cube to reduce pain and itching
Note that the site referred to is flogging their own miracle panacea insect and jelly fish treatment. They were kind enough to include an ingredient list for their super solution too. Water, Walnut Shells, Emulsifying Wax NF, Pentaerythrityl Tetracapryate/Caprate, Isopropyl Palmitate, Cetrearyl Alcohol, Polysorbate 60, Sodium Bicarbonate, Papain, Alcohol Denat, Sodium Hydroxide, Methylparaben, Propylparaben and Phenoxyethanol The walnut shells are there as an abrasive because you are supposed to scrub this into the skin just enough to mildly abrade it. The water and wax are really just carriers. There is some papain to denature proteins in the venom, and some alkalies like ammonia, lye (Sodium Hydroxide), baking soda (Sodium Bicarbonate) The rest of the chemicals you can look up for yourself if you want. Some are just soothing skin cream stuff but at least one is antibacterial. Like I said before. I have found diluted household ammonia to work OK. A solution between 3% and 6% seems to be effective enough and relatively safe. I am still very leery of putting strong chemicals directly on skin. I have seen burns caused by bleach and by lye.
Edited by scafool (10/05/09 12:51 AM)
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#184283 - 10/05/09 01:15 AM
Re: Wasp stings and fireants
[Re: scafool]
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Veteran
Registered: 11/01/08
Posts: 1530
Loc: DFW, Texas
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Maybe I can finally be of use in return for all the Canadian help I have received...
The best Texas remedy for a fire-ant sting is as follows:
1) Ignore the bite once the offender is gone. It will stop hurting soon enough.
2) Get ready for another fire-ant sting, they travel in groups, and seem to communicate when to bite. The little Bas74%d$ are tenacious, so get them gone quick.
There are products to reduce the sting and itch (After Bite and Sting Eeze). We mainly just pop the residual "pimple" where the bite occurred and move on with life. Living in Texas and enjoying the outdoors, it will not be the last one you get.
Now then, if you have the misfortune to fall into a large ant den and collect hundreds or thousands of bites I suggest heading for the ER. The toxins are cumulative, and you aren't going to like the results. This is especially true if you are allergic to any other insect stings.
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I do the things that I must, and really regret, are unfortunately necessary.
RIP OBG
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#184435 - 10/06/09 11:32 PM
Re: Wasp stings and fireants
[Re: Desperado]
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Member
Registered: 02/02/08
Posts: 146
Loc: Washington
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I would sincerely like to apologize to anyone who took offense to my comment, I did not mean to insinuate anyone was closed minded, just pointing out the immutable fact that rigid thinkers tend to be poor survivors.
I can attest, from several first hand experiences that concentrated bleach does immediately cease the pain and sting from hymenoptera stings. Immediately after putting a few drops on the sting site, the area is flushed liberally with cold water. In the period of time it takes to read about it, the bleach can be flushed off the skin.
The pain relief is immediate. This can be quite useful for someone suffering multiple stings as the pain can be distracting.
I have worked around bleach concentrates with the swimming pool I belong to and have had occasions where I had inadvertant contact with my skin (my discolored warddrobe is strong testimony to its power) I have always promptly flushed the area with prodigious amounts of water and fortunately have not suffered ill effects from said contact.
If I were out on a backpacking trip and happened across a ground hornets nest, the two or three sting relief wipes in my first aid kit would hardly be adequate for a dozen stings, but I do carry a small bottle of bleach for water purification and I would use that to make the pain and itching go away. I thought some of you may have found that a useful pearl of wisdom and was wondering if it would have a similar effect on fireants since ants and wasps are related.
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#184905 - 10/11/09 03:49 PM
Re: Wasp stings and fireants
[Re: Tarzan]
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Addict
Registered: 12/06/01
Posts: 601
Loc: Orlando, FL
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My mom was stung by a wasp this morning and she applied household bleach to the sting. She said that this is what her mom used way back when (my mom is in her 70's) for a variety of bites. She said that it substantially reduced the immediate burning sensation. Couple of hours later no swelling, she usually has noticeable localized swelling, and very little redness at the site of the sting. Bleach is now mommy tested and approved for insect bites.
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