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#180810 - 08/30/09 02:20 AM Re: shoot pedophiles who abduct children? [Re: 7point82]
Rodion Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 04/29/08
Posts: 285
Loc: Israel
Originally Posted By: 7point82

First off, in the hands of an abductor the child is already in mortal danger.

I must be the only one here with a little imagination. lol

Let's say the bad guy grabs your daughter in an attack similar to the Dugard case. You are able to close on the car as the bad guy is climbing in and or starting to drive off. There are a number of angles from which shooting the driver without putting a passenger in more danger would be very possible. You might also be able to disable the car as they are attempting to flee.

Everyone is getting caught up with being too close to use a weapon or too far away to use a weapon. A LOT of CQB training courses include shooting at contact distance.

I would comment on the last sentence in your post but I'm having trouble keeping my response civil.


You aren't the only one with imagination, you're just letting it run wild and free here. As for not accidentally shooting the child being "very possible", that's not good enough. Putting rounds through a vehicle with children in it does not help anyone. It "might" save the day, yes, or it just might not.

Your time would be better spent writing down the license plate number.
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#180818 - 08/30/09 09:37 AM Re: shoot pedophiles who abduct children? [Re: Blast]
Leigh_Ratcliffe Offline
Veteran

Registered: 03/31/06
Posts: 1355
Loc: United Kingdom.
Originally Posted By: Blast

Input from Texas: yes, we could legally shoot a kidnapper we catch in the act to prevent him/her from succeeding in this crime. However we had better be dang sure this is a "real" kidnapping. It's a given that at some point one of my adopted daughters will yell "You're not my real dad!" at me while I try to drag her out of someplace. This has happened to EVERY adoptive parent I know...

-Blast


If I wasn't sure what was happening, you would be told to "STAND STILL!" .

A much more effective command than "freeze!"

Gives me time to sort out exactly what is going on......



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#180837 - 08/30/09 02:25 PM Re: shoot pedophiles who abduct children? [Re: Leigh_Ratcliffe]
Rodion Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 04/29/08
Posts: 285
Loc: Israel
On that note, I myself had a child scream "I'm being kidnapped!" at a crowded bus station during my college years. I was volunteering in the projects and the child was African-Israeli. I'm not. Nobody bat an eyelid.

I understand where this is coming from, I really do. It's appalling that children can and do become victims of predators in this day and age. It's even worse that bystanders let it happen.

But none of my training, or simply common sense, suggests guns would be too useful in this situation. I suppose when you've secured the victim/s behind you a gun will come in handy to subdue the perp. Any other application of firearms runs a high risk of turning the event into a blood bath, or a hostage crisis. Why escalate? If possible - knock the guy out, sure. If not - okay, at least you saw A. Who is missing. B. Who took them and when.

That's a good start right there.
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#180884 - 08/31/09 03:38 AM Re: shoot pedophiles who abduct children? [Re: picard120]
picard120 Offline
Old Hand

Registered: 07/10/05
Posts: 763
[censored] out of pedophile?

Does Canadian law permit parents to use force to defend their kids?

Do the parents have to consult lawyers on this issue ?

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#180886 - 08/31/09 03:55 AM Re: shoot pedophiles who abduct children? [Re: picard120]
Blast Offline
INTERCEPTOR
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 07/15/02
Posts: 3760
Loc: TX
Originally Posted By: picard120

Does Canadian law permit parents to use force to defend their kids?

Do the parents have to consult lawyers on this issue ?


Picard, it would be best if you asked a local lawyer these questions rather than asking them here.

Also, consider yourself warned in regards to using swear words in your post.

-Blast
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#180887 - 08/31/09 04:22 AM Re: shoot pedophiles who abduct children? [Re: Blast]
picard120 Offline
Old Hand

Registered: 07/10/05
Posts: 763
oops. I didn't realize I used swear words.

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#180893 - 08/31/09 06:11 AM Re: shoot pedophiles who abduct children? [Re: Blast]
Madcat39 Offline
Stranger

Registered: 02/12/07
Posts: 7
Loc: So Cal
Originally Posted By: Blast
It's a given that at some point one of my adopted daughters will yell "You're not my real dad!" at me while I try to drag her out of someplace. This has happened to EVERY adoptive parent I know...

-Blast



I never did it to my parents and neither did my sister. We are both adopted. So there is at least one set of adoptive parents that didn't have to hear it, i hope you will never hear it either.

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#180896 - 08/31/09 12:25 PM Re: shoot pedophiles who abduct children? [Re: picard120]
Brangdon Offline
Veteran

Registered: 12/12/04
Posts: 1204
Loc: Nottingham, UK
Originally Posted By: picard120
my post refers to pedophiles who grab kids from their homes. They even audacious enough to kidnap the kids in front of the parents.
I gather it's rare for them to enter homes to abduct. Apparently when they are claimed to have done so, it often turns out the parents were involved in foul play and covering it up by claiming abduction. (This is part of why not everyone believes Madeleine McCann's parents, for example.)

In the Caycee case in the article you linked, the victim was outside, waiting at a bus stop. That is (relatively) more common. So the case you linked to is not an example of what you were talking about.
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#180901 - 08/31/09 12:42 PM Re: shoot pedophiles who abduct children? [Re: Ranter]
Dagny Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 11/25/08
Posts: 1918
Loc: Washington, DC
Originally Posted By: Ranter
The aftermath: the cops determined he was a known child molester. He tried to lure both girls into the car and the old lady happened to walk up as it was happening and interfered.


Ranter - Most of us will go through our entire lives without making such a profound difference in anyone's life that you made in these two girls' lives by saving them from their attacker. Hopefully his being arrested saved others, as well.

God bless you and the elderly woman for taking an interest and then taking action.

Child molesters don't usually walk around with "CHILD MOLESTER-PEDOPHILE" emblazoned on their forehead or t-shirt.

But when a child we don't know is in distress we should pay attention and assess the situation. And if anyone else is around as a potential witness or help, we should try to draw their attention, too.

But shooting the suspected perp on sight? Outside of Hollywood, that's very dangerous for innocent bystanders and exposes the shooter to considerable legal jeopardy. Being judge-jury-executioner on the spot like that is a horrifying prospect.

If it were my own child at issue and in or around my own home, I'd know the person was a threat and if armed and my child were not in the way, I'd probably shoot. And shoot, and shoot until all the bullets were gone. I'd worry about whether my action was legal when someone from the police department mentioned it.

As for the thread title: Shoot Pedophiles Who Abduct Children? I'm all for the death penalty for these perps. Their recidivism rate is extremely high and the crimes they commit against children are pure evil.





Edited by Dagny (08/31/09 12:51 PM)

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#180903 - 08/31/09 12:55 PM Re: shoot pedophiles who abduct children? [Re: Brangdon]
scafool Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 12/18/08
Posts: 1534
Loc: Muskoka
In Canada we are allowed the use of lethal force to protect ourselves or others.
It is still homicide though and you will almost certainly defending yourself against a murder charge.

So you had better be very sure that you really had to kill to protect yourself or somebody else from harm.

We don't have the death penalty in Canada for any offence. We do have life in prison instead, which is supposed to be 25 years with no parole.


Edited by scafool (08/31/09 12:58 PM)
Edit Reason: added a line
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