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#179103 - 08/12/09 08:24 AM Re: Question about EMPs [Re: ki4buc]
adam2 Offline
Addict

Registered: 05/23/08
Posts: 478
Loc: Somerset UK
Indeed, although the article refers to a solar storm, and not an EMP event, the effects on grid transformers would be similar.

EMP is a pulse of electromagnetic energy produced by a nuclear detonation, A solar storm is a natural event, that induces undesirable currents in long conductors such as grid lines.

A solar storm would only damage transformers connected to grid lines, spares or units switched out for maintenance would be safe.
However only a very few spare large transformers exist, and they are manufactured to order.
Smaller transformers are less of a problem since utilities hold stocks of spares, and they can be manufactured readily.

The EMP event is more concentrated than a solar storm.
EMP could kill a radio or TV connected to an aerial, a solar storm would only damage equipment connected to long grid lines.

Beyond normal disaster preps (food, water, fuel, shelter, defence etc.) there is nothing that an individual can do about solar storms.
Individuals can however prepare, at least to some extent for EMP events.
Spares should be stocked of useful electronic goods such as radios, landline telephones, GPS units, solar charge controlers etc etc. These should be stored completly enclosed in metal which will at least partial protect against EMP.

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#179123 - 08/12/09 03:53 PM Re: Question about EMPs [Re: adam2]
benjammin Offline
Rapscallion
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 02/06/04
Posts: 4020
Loc: Anchorage AK
Man, I just don't know where you folks are getting your information, but it is worse than useless, it is wrong, flat wrong.

It doesn't matter what the source of the emf field is. It could be lightning, it could be a solar storm, it could be an ionizing atomic discharge, it could be someone forgetting to run the switchgear improperly at the substation. If the field exceeds the dielectric limits of the insulation in a transformer or a motor or just a plain old coil, or if it exceeds the PIV of a diode junction, then that device is going to fail. Once the insulation on a coil is breached, you essentially have a short circuit condition across the windings, and the first time a constant current is applied across that coil, it is going to either blow open at the short, or fry altogether in a catastrophic failure. Once the diode junction is punched, the semiconductor becomes just another resistor and the junction will fry and blow open. As for induced current, if the emf potential is not too high but is sustained long enough that a spurious current of sufficient size hits the coil or the forward biased diode, it can cause excessive current and thereby overheat the device and also result in a failure. EMPs aren't typically long dwell time events, but by their nature they can accumulate a current in a long wire network that results in a sustained current flow condition that can be just as bad as a solar storm.

It doesn't matter if a device is in circuit or sitting on a shelf in a bin somewhere. EMP and solar storms can and will fry the compnents just as quickly on the shelf. Longwire impulse won't be a factor out of circuit, but the excessive voltage will be. Sometimes even a faraday shield/screen/cage isn't sufficient to protect the component. The surest protection for any component is to have as close to an infinite ground on all the leads as close to the component as possible. The ground will shunt the induced voltage and current. It still may not be enough, but it is your best chance at saving electronic components. That means the component has to be out of circuit. Barring that, a deep and well grounded Faraday cage is your next best chance.
_________________________
The ultimate result of shielding men from the effects of folly is to fill the world with fools.
-- Herbert Spencer, English Philosopher (1820-1903)

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#179127 - 08/12/09 04:39 PM Re: Question about EMPs [Re: benjammin]
big_al Offline
Addict

Registered: 01/04/06
Posts: 586
Loc: 20mi east of San Diego
benjammin: Not to be a wise guy, just asking a question.

What if less say parts for a car were bured under ground, in a water proof container. and let me also say that EMP is leat of my worry. If that happens there will be other pressing problems.
_________________________
Some people try to turn back their odometers.
Not me, I want people to know "why" I look this way
I've traveled a long way and some of the roads weren't paved

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#179133 - 08/12/09 05:36 PM Re: Question about EMPs [Re: big_al]
benjammin Offline
Rapscallion
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 02/06/04
Posts: 4020
Loc: Anchorage AK
It depends on the ground potential around the container, which takes into consideration ionic mineral content, moisture, density of material, area/volume etc. In addition, the emf field strength determines the effective penetration of the field.

Bascially, it is how deep you bury it, how conductive the material is you buried it in, and how far the conductive material spreads out without encountering a less-conductive area. Also, how big the EMP is and the proximity to it. Under ideal conditions, underground burial can be highly effective at protecting electronics. However, if the equipment is still hooked up to an outside supply source that the EMP could get to, the equipment and it's components can still be compromised.
_________________________
The ultimate result of shielding men from the effects of folly is to fill the world with fools.
-- Herbert Spencer, English Philosopher (1820-1903)

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#179136 - 08/12/09 06:06 PM Re: Question about EMPs [Re: benjammin]
big_al Offline
Addict

Registered: 01/04/06
Posts: 586
Loc: 20mi east of San Diego
Thanks
_________________________
Some people try to turn back their odometers.
Not me, I want people to know "why" I look this way
I've traveled a long way and some of the roads weren't paved

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#179181 - 08/13/09 09:02 AM Re: Question about EMPs [Re: big_al]
adam2 Offline
Addict

Registered: 05/23/08
Posts: 478
Loc: Somerset UK
I can not agree that a grid transformer, disconnected from the grid is vulnerable to solar storms.

The voltages induced by a solar storm, per yard, are very modest, and far below the normal operating voltage.
If however the transformer is connected to long conductors as would be the case whilst in use, then damaging voltages would be induced.

I would respectfully point out that a moderatly severe solar storm caused blackouts in Canada and the nothern parts of the USA some years ago.
Several transformers and other items connected to the grid suffered damage.
I am not aware of any electrical equipment being damaged whilst sitting on the shelf.

An EMP event produces greater electric fields, and can damage unprotected electronics, and might damage heavy electrical equipment.

Portable electronic equipment if totally enclosed in metal should survive all but the very worst EMP event.
Should certainly survive anything that the owner can survive.

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#179194 - 08/13/09 02:12 PM Re: Question about EMPs [Re: adam2]
benjammin Offline
Rapscallion
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 02/06/04
Posts: 4020
Loc: Anchorage AK
Adam2,

With common solar storm activity, I would tend to agree with your conclusion. If however we are considering a large magnitude X class flare, then all bets are off on amplitude. However, such events are very rare, and have other far more immediate consequences. My point is that the sun is capable of producing solar activity sufficiently strong to match the signal amplitudes found in EMPs

It's been my experience that metal cased equipment, whether referring to the chassis alone or placing the equipment in another metal container, provides only limited protection. If the metal case is grounded, the protection is improved, and could be enough to negate lower EMP amplitudes. It is scalarly proportional, and some protection is always better than none. My contention is that by the nature of the threat, at or near the very worst EMP event is a likely outcome should the threat manifest.
_________________________
The ultimate result of shielding men from the effects of folly is to fill the world with fools.
-- Herbert Spencer, English Philosopher (1820-1903)

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#179222 - 08/13/09 05:13 PM Re: Question about EMPs [Re: NightHiker]
benjammin Offline
Rapscallion
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 02/06/04
Posts: 4020
Loc: Anchorage AK
Yeah, the green boys have all the best toys...
_________________________
The ultimate result of shielding men from the effects of folly is to fill the world with fools.
-- Herbert Spencer, English Philosopher (1820-1903)

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#179253 - 08/14/09 03:56 AM Re: Question about EMPs [Re: sodak]
Susan Offline
Geezer

Registered: 01/21/04
Posts: 5163
Loc: W. WA
Okay, off on a tangent...

Does anyone remember who said about space aliens something like "We always assume that they're smarter than we are, but not as good-looking"?

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#179392 - 08/15/09 01:02 AM Re: Question about EMPs [Re: Susan]
sodak Offline
Addict

Registered: 03/20/05
Posts: 410

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