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#176812 - 07/19/09 12:56 AM Re: Eagle Scout Lost on Mountain Fined $25,000 for Res [Re: Todd W]
haertig Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 03/13/05
Posts: 2322
Loc: Colorado
This is how I handle it here in Colorado:

http://www.dola.state.co.us/dlg/fa/sar/sar_purchase.html

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#176822 - 07/19/09 02:49 AM Re: Eagle Scout Lost on Mountain Fined $25,000 for Res [Re: haertig]
GradyT34 Offline
Member

Registered: 02/14/09
Posts: 118
Well, this is just great. Now people are not going call for help because they're afraid of devastating fines.

"Hi, I'm a park ranger and I'm here to help you."

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#176826 - 07/19/09 03:37 AM Re: Eagle Scout Lost on Mountain Fined $25,000 for Res [Re: GradyT34]
comms Offline
Veteran

Registered: 07/23/08
Posts: 1502
Loc: Mesa, AZ
Kid shouldn't get fined. But that my opinion.

But look in Arizona we have a law called Stupid Motorist Law, if you drive through a barricaded flooded wash and get stuck you get a ticket and a big fine.

But if your (most likely) an out of state tourist and not used to our heat, climb a extremely difficult but well maintained mountain trail in city limits without water and get a heat injury that needs med evac, your good to go.

I think someone who is woefully unprepared for the environment they enter should be fined before an accident.
_________________________
Don't just survive. Thrive.

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#176833 - 07/19/09 07:06 AM Re: Eagle Scout Lost on Mountain Fined $25,000 for Res [Re: comms]
PureSurvival Offline
Member

Registered: 02/21/09
Posts: 149
Loc: UK
This is an emotive issue here in the UK, some people are calling for people to have insurance to cover rescues, the government often talks about it. But, thankfully Mountain Rescue and many other groups resist the idea despite the many silly call they get to help people off the mountains just because they are tired.

I feel that if insurance companies where involved the cost of rescues would go up by a lot of money and that the mountain rescues teams would be working on the insurers behalf and on their rules. A mountain rescue team may justify walking a tired 70 year old off a mountain but think its a waste of resources to walk a 20 something year old of just because he is tired: an insurance company could sue both for wasting the teams time.

RAF and Navy S&R helos fly their missions as real life training missions and the MOD resist charging for the service because if they were not saving lives they would still be flying training missions to rescue dummies and people playing casualties. Their primary role is the S&R of downed air crew and military personnel and assisting civilian S&R is their secondary role and provides valuable training.

I know i have moved away from the original post some what, but my view is that if in the US a S&R is carried out for a genuine case then people should not be charged: but we are not often privy to all the facts and the press distorts the available facts.

In this case it is said that the lad carried on after sustaining an injury, yet he was praised for using his Eagle Scout skills. In my mind this is the issue, one has a duty of care for themselves and the advise is clear, if you are injured or the conditions change don't press on, turn around and go back. This is true for any outdoor activity and i am sure is one taught by Eagle Scouts. This is the first skill anyone should employ in a situation. This lad did not use his skills until he had closed all the options to himself, he made the classic mistake.

Does that justify a $25,000 fine, not in my book but then i live in the UK where things are different and if I came and played in the US i would have to have travel insurance which would cover this sort of thing. If i lived in the US my feeling maybe slightly different, but it still would not justify a $25,000 fine, i would also be asking the Government why S&R have to rely on local helicopters often privately owned and of the good will of the pilots. The military and national guard could make available helos for S&R as part of their training.

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#176836 - 07/19/09 11:16 AM Re: Eagle Scout Lost on Mountain Fined $25,000 for Res [Re: PureSurvival]
Russ Offline
Geezer

Registered: 06/02/06
Posts: 5357
Loc: SOCAL
Maybe I'm dense, but I don't see the negligence -- all things considered, a $25K fine is crazy. He did good except for leaving the trail that was clear when he took his self-rescue "shortcut". More likely to find help on a trail.

He should take this to court and let a jury decide. He can explain to them what he did and why, and let them determine his negligence.
_________________________
Better is the Enemy of Good Enough.
Okay, what’s your point??

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#176841 - 07/19/09 12:15 PM Re: Eagle Scout Lost on Mountain Fined $25,000 for [Re: duckear]
Nicodemus Offline
Paranoid?
Veteran

Registered: 10/30/05
Posts: 1341
Loc: Virginia, US
I think I'll start leaving a note with my intended route, "I don't know when I'll be back and neither do you, so don't send SAR."

Perhaps I should quit leaving info on my intended route altogether and instead leave a note that says, "Gone to Europe. Be Back Later."

I appreciate SAR for what they do, but I myself just can't afford it. Having said that, I'm not going to stop enjoying the outdoors to become one of those people that hikes around the mall for exercise either.

So, is there any way to ensure that Search and Rescue is not called if I go missing? I don't need anyone to save my life so that somebody can ruin it for years to come. I'll take my chances on self rescue. I understand that I'm taking my life into my own hands.

If charging for rescue is the new trend, I can also save some money by not having to purchase a PLB... Even though it might drastically cut an SAR bill by being able to locate me more quickly...


_________________________
"Learn survival skills when your life doesn't depend on it."

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#176842 - 07/19/09 12:23 PM Re: Eagle Scout Lost on Mountain Fined $25,000 for [Re: Nicodemus]
Nicodemus Offline
Paranoid?
Veteran

Registered: 10/30/05
Posts: 1341
Loc: Virginia, US
Or maybe you get the PLB just in case you change your mind at the very last minute... LOL
_________________________
"Learn survival skills when your life doesn't depend on it."

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#176850 - 07/19/09 02:29 PM Re: Eagle Scout Lost on Mountain Fined $25,000 for [Re: Nicodemus]
Tarzan Offline
Member

Registered: 02/02/08
Posts: 146
Loc: Washington
The biggest objection I have to this fine issue is the fact that many folks involved in search and rescue are volunteers. They don't get reimbursed or rewarded, all the money seems to find itw way into government coffers to be squandared on studying the effects of household mites on the elastic of a woman's brassiere.

There are many volunteers who are offended by this billing issue as well, and rightfully so.

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#176853 - 07/19/09 03:09 PM Re: Eagle Scout Lost on Mountain Fined $25,000 for Res [Re: duckear]
Roarmeister Offline
Old Hand

Registered: 09/12/01
Posts: 960
Loc: Saskatchewan, Canada
$25K is a bit excessive for what he did. Maybe a $500 fine or something like that, a fine that's appropriate for his actions and ability to pay. $25k is a year at college for him.

I generally support the idea of fines for stupid actions that require your rescue (ie. the idiots on Garibaldi who intentionally went OB while skiing) but this was a bit much.

In a similar article I read this morning, a drunk vacationer went out to the dock, dropped off his clothes and jewelry and swam out to a boat where he then fell asleep. The locals thought somebody had committed suicide and sent out the rescue team. He shows up a few hours later to clarify that he wasn't dead, just drunk and a bit stupid. No charges, no fines.

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#176880 - 07/19/09 07:38 PM Re: Eagle Scout Lost on Mountain Fined $25,000 for Res [Re: Roarmeister]
Susan Offline
Geezer

Registered: 01/21/04
Posts: 5163
Loc: W. WA
One of the hardest things to understand is why people keep moving once they know/suspect they're lost.

Maybe there should be a big advertising push on STOPPING. Stop when you think you're lost, and no fine. Keep going, get out the calculator.

It wouldn't be such a big issue if there weren't no many fools out there with poor judgment.

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