Just curious if anyone else is running into this problem -- I recently (late 2008 - mid 2009) bought some WetFire tinder from UST and noticed the little gray foil packets seem to come apart at the end seams quickly. I've had a couple of pieces stored in an Aloksak bag with some other survival gear and the packets have already started coming apart, leaving little white shavings inside my survival kit. Also, I recently bought a StrikeForce firesteel (with the tinder in the handle) and the foil packet inside that had started to come apart as well. I wouldn't be so concerned, but from what I understand exposure to air degrades the tinder. I just sent an e-mail to Ultimate Survival Technologies, and if I hear anything I'll give an update.

So... anybody else have this happen to them?

JOOC, could you try lighting them with the sparking firestarter? Exposure to air will fairly quickly turn them into useless lumps of white stuff, not much good as tinder. Curious if those still in the Aloksak deteriorated already.

I'll definitely give that a try tomorrow and report back...

I will also try lighting the tab that was shipped in the handle of the StrikeForce and had somehow opened.

Okay, I went ahead and tested the following pieces of WetFire tinder:

Test 1) Piece of tinder that was included new in the StrikeForce firesteel handle. This piece had degraded (completely crumbled) in the handle and had started to flake off with an obvious hole in the end seam of the foil packet.

This piece failed to light with the StrikeForce firesteel. I was able to get it to light with a lighter. It burned for the least amount of time.

Test 2) Piece of tinder that was originally from bulk WetFire packaging and had been inside my Aloksak survival kit for a few months. Piece was mostly solid with minor crumbling and flaking. This piece had an obvious hole in the end seam of the foil packet and had started leaving small shavings inside the Aloksak.

This piece failed to light with a Doan firesteel. I was able to get it to light with a lighter. It burned for a medium amount of time.

Test 3) Piece of new tinder pulled out of storage with other WetFire tinder, exposed to no adverse storage or use. Upon closer examination it was easy to see that the end seam had failed on this foil packet as well. Piece was solid with no crumbling.

This piece was able to be lit by the Doan firesteel after breaking into chunks and burned much longer than the other two tests.

Conclusion) There seems to be a problem with the end seams on the WetFire tinder foil packaging.



(I have additional pictures from the tests if needed.)

cedfire,

I've seen the same exact issue that you have. I bought a fresh pack of WetFire tinder after reading a promissing review on it. I place a few cubes in my PSK.

Well, on a camping weekend with the scouts, I was doing a bit of PWYP (Practice What You Preach). Well, I couldn't get the tinder to light with a spark to save my life... It did take to a lighter, but I wasn't impressed with the burn time. Seems that I had similar seam failures. This was true even for packs that were never placed in my kits.

Mike

Thanks Mike... glad I'm not just imagining things! I want to trust this tinder, I really do. But so far things have not been good. Hopefully UST gets back to me with some info.

I have just checked mine. They appear to be ok but I have overbagged them. Just as a precaution.


One point that I would make about Wet-Fire, Esbit, Trioxane foil bagged type tinders in general: They are all vunerable to packaging damage. Unfortunatly it's inherent. The best way to ensure that it remains usable is to:

1) Store it in a rigid container . Altoids tins etc are perfect.

2) Over wrap the tinder with tape to reinforce the seams.

Wet-fire has it's weakness's but it's still (in my view) a better choice than Esbit or Trioxane because it's non-toxic.

Another interesting twist here -- I just looked at the lightweight survival kit I had put together the other day. Inside a small zipper pouch (heavy duty Omniseal kind for fishing licenses) were two pieces of WetFire tinder. They have not been subjected to any abuse and were put there directly from original packaging. I looked at the pouch and realized there was a glossy sheen inside, with an outline where the two tinder tabs were sitting. I pulled them out and sure enough, an oily residue on the foil packaging and they were partially opened on the end seams.

Then I went and looked at the rest of my WetFire tinder in the closet. More of an oily sheen on nearly all of the individual foil packets, too! And all over the plastic drawer.

Not sure what to make of this except the seams are failing in my three separate batches that had been opened, and leaving an oily residue (guessing from the tinder ingredients). I have another retail package I had bought last week and upon closer examination I can see lots of little white flakes inside. Not a good thing.

I'll have to check mine, but IIRC, mine came in a gold color foil packet.

Thought: Have you tried cutting one in half and tried to light the interior? I suspect if you cut them open to expose fresh material you might have more luck.

-john

Didn't try cutting one in half and lighting that, but I did break them apart into chunks. All of the ones I have are the newer variety in the gray foil packets.

Doug,

I am seeing more than a trend here.

A retailer who shall remain nameless is a friend of mine. They just went back and pulled a sample of the UST WetFire Tinder from individual packs, and both the hard and soft side survival kits UST sells.

All of them had packaging failures.

One of the summer employees is a budding chemical engineer (Blast Jr maybe?), and he commented that is seems like the contents of the product were reacting adversely to the packaging (NO REALLY???).


Sounds like you might want to alienate the UST folks again.

That was my first thought as I read this. The hydrocarbon/oil material is probably dissolving glue used to seal the foil packet. If it is mylar rather than aluminum foil a similar degradation is probably taking place. I think I have some of these stashed away. I'll take a look at them and see what I can figure out.

-Blast

Okay, I think this is UST's (Survival, Inc.) patent for WetFire. It is composed of 50% magnesium powder mixed with one or more themosetting plastics (cool, I use these same things in the lab!). Looking at the list of chemicals, nothing jumps out at me that would likely dissolve the glue.

I'm thinking they might have got a bad batch of glue or the glue they chose wasn't the proper one for sealing this foil (unlikely) rather than it is being decomposed by the chemicals...unless maybe the magnesium is reacting with the glue. That might be a possibility.

-Blast

Thinking more...they might have recieved a bad batch of themopolymer. The oily material might be unreacted monomer.

-Blast

Good catch cedfire and thanks for the heads up, I have unfortunately had beefed up my wet fire collection from a base camp sale and had supplied my BOB and PSK with many of them. I will go back and check the integrity of them and contemplate pulling them until a solution is resolved. I agree with what Blast said that the glue is probably defective because I have had a wetfire packet in a handle of an old StrikeForce Fire Starter I had bought 10 years ago and I tried it and it lit right up after 10 years. I think there was some sort of bad batches or they have changed there packing procedure or something has changed.

That´s quite important information. I should check mine cube inside the Strike Force. I just left it there without any testing because it´s the only WF cube I have. I might actually replace it with something more reliable. I don´t like that WF changes it´s qualities once exposed to air. I knew it but I thought that it would still catch a spark and burn. I didn´t know that it would be possible for it to become totally useless.
Maybe I will go with combination of candle from high quality wax and/or fat wood plus one piece of TinderQuick.

Thanks for sharing the information about this.

I checked all mine. They are all in the gold foil and none of them were coming apart like noted in the original post.

I opened one from my *EDC* which is in my backpack, but packed in a a titanium bowl which means it is *semi* protected from crushing.







The opened packet shows some crumbling, but not tons.




I did a light test with a Firesteel Jr., which shows that lighting the solid cube takes some work, but it does light, and crushing a portion results in much easier lighting (which seems to be expected, IMO).

EDC cube + Firesteel Jr., partially crushed (.mov, 92MB)
EDC cube + Firesteel Jr., UNcrushed (.mov, 214MB!) Note at the end, I accidentally crushed part and then it lights. No need for snide comments about my technique! :-)

I went back and pulled a fresh (not carried) cube from the original packaging from the Rubbermaid box I keep supplies in and found the same results (work to light whole, not very difficult lighting a crushed portion).





"new" cube + Firesteel Jr., uncrushed vs crushed (.mov, 196MB!) Attempt to light for a while, then crush some and attempt again.

Note I don't have any way to determine the age of either of the cubes tested, but neither are "new" and all of my supply use the gold foil.

Takeaway:

1) In this limited sample, the gold foil doesn't seem to have a de-lamination issue.

2) Crush protecting the packets is probably a good idea.

3) In my limited sample, I did not see any large difficulties lighting my cubes.

4) Crush portion of cube when lighting.

[full gallery, larger size images]

-john

I have come close to purchasing these a few times, but have always had 2nd thoughts and put them back on the hook at the store. Now I am sure I will never get any of them. From what I have seen tinder-quick has no way to fail they have always worked for me. But then I have used dryer lint or lint scraped off my pants more times then I can remember.
I once decided I needed a hi-tech lighter I got a Brunton that cost over $50.00 it quit in a couple days and I went back to a Zipo I have several they all work. I carry a small fuel bottle and spare flint in my gear.

Jim

Without upsetting anyone, you guys must have money to burn!

I have never felt the need to buy tinder. A candle and a strip of old bicycle inner tube has done me fine for over twenty year and it is not effected by the environment.

Cotton wool soaked in petroleum jelly sounds more reliable than those fuel tabs.

Right now I have pulled all WetFire tinder from my kits. I am not comfortable with the seams coming apart and the oily residue on everything. Many thanks for you guys checking your individual collections, too. Hopefully we can learn more about what's going on.

I wonder if when US became UST they possibly changed the packaging for the tinder? From the gold packets to the gray packets?

The first batch I bought back in late 2008 came in a plastic cylinder container, with gray foil packets. The second batch I bought in early 2009 was the same packaging and gray foil packets. Then in spring 2009 a batch I bought was in plastic wrap with cardboard backing, same as the batch I picked up last week, both still with gray foil packets.

I found the order for the two twelve packs dated 11/7/2005, so most of mine is over three years old.

-john


Subject: Survival, Incorporated -- New Order
Date: 11/7/2005 12:57 AM

Thank you for placing your order with Survival, Inc!

(QTY) Product (SKU) Price
(2) FIRE STARTER, BLASTMATCH (1WG0415-BX) $19.95
(2) FIRE TINDER, WETFIRE (1WG0412-BX) $5.05

Subtotal: $50.00
Shipping: $8.45
Tax: $0.00
Total: $58.45
[...]

I checked my WF inside Strike Force. The wrapping is oily (I remember it was oily when I received the Strike Force and pulled the WF out). When I was checking toughness of the seam (not tearing it at all or something) a hole appeared immediately. I suspect there had already been a small hole and I just enlarged it.
The cube is wrapped in grey foil. The Strike Force is from 4/2008. I haven´t tried to light the WF yet. Anyway I am changing the contents of the Strike Force compartment.

JohnN: Thanks for the videos.

In testing and training my family over a year ago, I had better luck with the tinder quick products anyway.

I predict an upswing in tinder quick sales sometime soon....

Living in a wet area, I feel there are some benefits to this tinder which led me to choose it over the others.

FWIW, I sent an email to US and directed them to this thread.

It probably would be good if others do the same so they realize the concern is spreading.

-john

I have had a bunch of Micropur tablets degrade in the same fashion - both the packaging seems and the tablets turned to mush. Never thought to post about it and just threw them out.

Guys, thanks for bringing this up.
I've never bought any wetfire tinder, but I have been looking at it for awhile. I guess I won't now and anyway, I'm perfectly satisfied with tinder-quik.
But I've been wondering, couldn't you accomplish pretty much the same thing with esbit fuel tabs?

I think the esbin fuel tabs need to stay dry, and not sure if you can light it with a spark. If you look at the picture on the product page, this kind of wet resistance is perfect for the Pacific NW.

-john

I know, I've seen the ads. But I'm really not that interested in starting a fire in a cup of water. Tinder-quik works in the wet also. I live and work in southest alaska, we get over 150 inches of rain a year. Then it starts snowing.
I've always been wary of "new and improved", I guess I'll always be that way.

I have never bought or tryed the easy way. I still use PJ and cotton balls. always works
oops, I do have 4 in my DR PSK.

Absolutely....PJ and cotton balls work 100% of the time.

Ha ha. It sounds like you *should* be interested in being able to start a fire in a cup of water! :-)

Actually, I'm originally from Sitka, so I know what you mean. Probably why I'm concerned about starting fire in the wet so much.

-john

Esbit needs to stay sealed up or it gets hard to light. And can't get the smell out of your gear- think rancid fish oil, moth balls, and something really vile tossed in for kicks.

I have the gold foil pack ones...

Just not impressed with it all in all... I like Tinder Quik much much more...

When it comes to tinder/kindling I like LMF Maya sticks a lot. Non toxic, water resistant. You can cut it in order to get the size you need or you can make shavings. Burns great. And doesn´t need to be sealed. When you combine it with TinderQuik it´s great solution.

I've checked my BOB and PSK and I've had several wet fire tinders that came unglued as well. I unfortunately had 2 tubes and 1 box of them and have lost several already due to them coming unglued. I'm going to see if I can still use them in a fire, I may not can strike them but they still may make tinder. I may have to go back to cotton balls and PJ until a better solution is made. Cotton balls are very cheap and effective providing they are dry.

Well, I haven't heard anything back from the UST folks yet. Hopefully they have checked out this thread after JohnN directed them to it.

Has anyone picked up the phone and called them??

I'll be hopefully seeing them next week at Outdoor Retailer in SLC. Assuming they don't shoot me on sight. It's on my list to discuss with them.

To those concerned about WetFire.

I am sorry to hear some of you are having problems with WetFire.
Hopefully this will ease some of your concerns.

If sealed the WetFire should last at least 5 years (our warranty) – see video on YouTube
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GU0nOdjZ2Yo

1. Yes, if exposed to air it does degrade the effectiveness of the WetFire. If exposed to air they should last approximately 1 year.
2. The residue some of you are seeing is nontoxic and is part of the process of making this product. If you would like a complete chemical explanation of this, please call and I can email you a copy.
3. The individual way we are packaging has not changed, and seams are sonically welded, only the color of the package has changed from gold to grey
They are made to be opened easily. In an emergency situation physical functions in a hypothermic state are limited ext: hard to use fingers.
Those of you who have been very cold know what I am talking about.
4. The WetFire cube is made to crumble for ease of use and exposure to more surface area.
To use:
Break open package
Shave a small amount of shavings from the cube and light, then if desired light the cube.
It is almost impossible to light just the cube without the shavings. It would be like lighting a huge log rather than starting with shavings.
Advantages of WetFire:
Will light is very wet conditions. Even if the whole cube is submerged in water, simply shake off water, shave off some tinder and light.
Can use cube multiple times. As long as there is still white powder to be exposed, simply scrape off black residue and relight.

Remember to always have a backup to everythng you carry. Even the best, well thoughtout products can fail.

If any of you have WetFire you received and were opened, please give us a call and we will replace it, no charge.

We stand behind all our products and want to make the best products possible.
If you have trouble with any of our products please contact us directly, so we can solve the problem.

We want to make the best because people’s lives depend upon our products!

Nancie Weston
Director of Commercial Sales
866-479-7994 ext:111
nweston@ultimatesurvival.com

Fair enough nancie, I can say this much about your product, I can say that I had a old wet fire still in the wrapper in a old handle of a old strike force fire starter or what ever you called it back then and struck a spark from it over 10 years later and it lit right up with no problems. That did impress me but the foil wrapping had never came unglued. I am also thankful that you came on this forum to address concerns about your product as well, but I still wonder if there is a issue with a few bad batches that did not get processed correctly. My old wetfire cubes have never had issues with coming apart like the newer ones that I had bought but I I'm glad you will take back the bad batches and send replacements. I still like these tinder's but I wish the air didn't degrade them as much.

If the packets are sonically welded, it must be physical forces that are causing people's packets to come apart. It seems that with this particular tinder, protecting it in a container of some sort would be indicated.

I think I'm going to try to find a small container just for the tinder for my kit.

-john

Well my tinder is in a gold wrapper and protected by the otter box the kit came in. Guess what? It still has the same issue of the seams being open.

Sounds to me like UST is about to be flooded with returns....

If the box isn't crushed, sounds like a defective batch.

-john

Nancie -- many thanks for coming here and providing us with info and support. I just tried your extension but apparently you are out all week, so I was able to speak with Bill Clark instead. He was very friendly and helpful and I'll be sending in some tinder pulled at random with replacements headed my way.

I bought a couple of Strike Forces years ago, close to 15, I think. I also purchased some extra tinder cubes with them when I bought them. I just checked and they all are intact. This was when the StrikeForce was marketed by Gerber.
I also have several packs of Esbit fuel, I have not noticed any deterioration in performance in any of those, but I can attest to the fact there is a very distinct odor when I open the airtight container I store them in.
You all have me thinking about just sticking to Trioxane and petroleum-jellied cotton balls. I will test my stores as well and get back with you, also.

Anything in foil in a pack is likely to get jostled, loosened, and leak... power bars, light sticks, even this wetfire tinder. It's the nature of the package.

I received the replacement tinder the other day from UST (thanks!); these batches were in small cardboard boxes, same gray foil wrapper. Just need to get outside and give them a try...

Discovered by accident that Lock & Lock makes a small round plastic container that is 100 ml / 3 oz. / 0.11 qt. in size and holds five pieces of WetFire tinder perfectly. Both Uwajimaya and H Mart (asian food stores) carry lots of various Lock & Lock containers. Should work well for protecting the tinder if anyone needs something cheaper than an Otterbox or Pelican case.

I spoke to UST at Outdoor Retailer about these Wetfire failures. They are looking at bringing the sealing process in-house to exercise more control. While I agree that the packets need to be opened easily, it may be that they have erred too far in that direction. It could also be that QC in production sealing of the packages may not be as good as desired. <shrug>

We also discussed the fact that while the latest retail packaging notes that the cube should be shaved for lighting with a sparking firestarter, the reality is that many users do not realize this. That becomes even more critical when the cube has been exposed to air for any length of time, losing some or most of the volatile elements that make it easier to light. I suggested that they should print that sort of instruction on the individual packaging itself. They indicated they might consider it down the road when they have used up existing packaging material.

They seemed pretty adamant that a recall is not warranted. I am not yet convinced of that. I was told they may post a notice on their Web site offering to replace any packages that have come open, as they have posted here. That would be a good start, but since many, if not most, purchasers of the Wetfire will never stop by the UST site or find that offer, or even notice the individual packages have come open until too late, a more critical issue, I am not convinced that solves the issue.

I should note for those that like this product, there is another seemingly identical product available (the manufacturer claims it is identical and it seems to work the same) that seems to have more secure and somewhat tougher packaging, but which is, unfortunately, a larger cube, which would create some packing issues in a small kit. This is Fastfire by Solkoa: www.fast-fire.com.

Of course, another alternative is the Spark-Lite Tinder-Quik product, such as I use in my Pocket Survival Pak.

Both products have their advantages and disadvantages. Neither is the perfect tinder.

UST probably cannot afford another recall.

I have been thinking about unwrapping the WetFire cuboid and casting it in wax and then wrapping it again. The layer of wax would protect it from air and therefore deteoriation. And the wax would be useful for fire starting too. I could actually get smaller pieces this way - cutting the cuboid and casting the individual pieces in wax. What do you think? Would it be good storage method?

Call a chemist or cat wrangler.

I think that would work. If my research is correct the WetFire is powdered magnesium trapped in a cube of thermosetting plastic. Be warned that when you do open the original packaging and start breaking the tinder into smaller chunks whatever magnesium is exposed to the air will quickly be rendered inert. I think you are better off coating the intact cubes with wax rather than breaking them apart.

Also, I would use a fairly flexible wax like the stuff used to coat cheese rather than brittler waxes.

-Blast

Thanks a lot for the info, Blast!

I just looked over each foil packet of replacement tinder that UST sent me recently... I can't find any obvious seam or packaging failures on the individual cubes.

When stored in an airtight container (such as a Lock 'n' Lock) the WetFire tinder seems to be offgassing some sort of byproduct. It collects on the wall of the plastic container and leaves a cloudy, slippery film. The smell is definitely of the chemical variety. I'm assuming since the tinder is non-toxic this is nothing to worry about.

This offgassing happened with the original batches of WetFire that had seam failures, and also with this newer batch with no seam failures.