One of the contributing factors to the suffering Hurricane Katrina caused in New Orleans, was the fact that about one-third of the adults did not own a car.

An even higher proportion of residents in Washington, D.C., where I live, do not own cars. Many of my neighbors walk, bike or Metro to their jobs and have chosen to not spend money on a car. Some made the "green" choice not to own a car. Several rely on car-sharing services such as "Zipcar" for major errands. Or will rent a car if they want to roadtrip somewhere. Meanwhile, I have always paid to own a personal vehicle.

Were a category 4 or 5 hurricane aiming for the Chesapeake Bay I'd be loading up my SUV (gas tank always kept above half) with gear for me and my dog -- and heading toward the mountains with food, camping gear, etc. (In 1989, Hurricane Hugo was feared to be such a threat and the federal government closed as a precaution to keep traffic down).

DC is, of course, also the major trophy for terrorists.

Anyone here given thought to what you'd do if you were presented with the choice of transporting carless neighbors or your own survival gear and provisions?

Some of us choose to be prepared. Others don't.

In such a scenario, it has occured to me that it would be helpful to have someone riding shotgun, with a shotgun. In normal times, carjacking is commonplace here.

Don't know what I'd do. My instinct usually is to help people. But I would resent having to leave supplies behind because my neighbors chose not to buy and maintain their own vehicle.

In all things--PLAN AHEAD, don't prepare for stragglers, prepare for your success in your best interests.

Your instincts are correct in wanting to have someone to ride "Shotgun". Work it out with someone to partner up in your retreat. This person should also have a fully equipped Bug Out kit. This person should be able to help you and vice versa.

Since there are so many people you know that don't have a vehicle you have a great bartering tool, they get a free ride to safety and you get someone to do some driving and security, splitting the expenses.

I would not rely on picking up someone(s) that you do not know to help you in any way. They most likely have nothing that you need for your trip/retreat and will probably be mooching off your equipment.

interesting. I'd consider pre-planning who to ask along as well as carrying a sturdy bicycle on the rack - highways may be gridlocked.

"Car" doesn't equal "preparedness" in my book. A car is just a tool. It might not be available. It might be impractical. It might end up being a liability in fact.

Looking back at Katrina, I'm not sure whether more cars would do any good. From what I've heard, traffic congestions were bad enough already.

In any densely populated area there is a limit as to just how much traffic the road network can handle at any given time. In an earthquake, major fire or something similarly destructive, the roads are likely to be blocked. Panic could take road rage to a whole new level. An SUV may look cool and has plenty of space for survival gear but it's pretty much all show, no go. If 4WD is a real necessity an old school Toyota or Land Rover will beat an SUV any day. In an urban environment though one might be better off with a smaller car, maybe even a bike. A big car needs a lot of room, not ideal when everyone owning a car is trying to drive the heck out of dodge at the same time. Just my 2 cents.

Does one of your neighbors who doesn't own a car have a shotgun (and ammo)? Are you and this neighbor on good terms/friends?

Is this person likely to be an asset or a hindrance in an evacuation? Are his/her bags packed and ready?

Sometimes you're better off solo.

The DW and I don't own a car. Our bug out gear is touring bike ready and our multiple planned routes out of town include bike paths and roads compatible with bike travel. Our average travel speed on the road is around 18 - 20 mph. Our freeways around here are backed up daily at rush hour I would hate to be stuck on one of them during an emergency evacuation.

Not owning a car does not necessarily equal being unprepared.

I thought it was because the authorities in charge of the evacuation really couldn't give a damn about that one-third when the 'Everyone for himself' evacuation order went out when the balloon went up. They couldn't even be bothered to organise any buses. The fact that after Hurricane Katrina passed though, the levees broke and New Orleans was flooded out then the armed road blocks went up around the city to stop those even attempting to get out by foot didn't help either.

Of course you should help your neighbors.

If you're leaving town because of a hurricane, it's not like you're going to be surprised, is it? How many days can you see a hurricane coming? If you wait till the last minute, take all the neighbors you can; Drive west for a day: are you then going to be in a jungle? Some hinterland where you'll hunt for game and worry about shelter? Or will you be in Kentucky or Virginia or some other state where there are hotels, motels, B&Bs who'll be helping the crowds leaving the coast?

Louise and I happened to be in Arizona and New Mexico when the Rodeo-Chediski fire happened, and in the West neighbors helped each other out.

> because my neighbors chose not to buy and maintain their own vehicle.

Um, I live in an area where people choose not to buy cars for a variety of reasons. Many people can't afford insurance, gas, and maintenance, not to mention the car itself. Sometimes it's not choice. Others choose not to buy because we have very good public transportation, and having a car is a waste of money. Some don't own a car because they're California fruitloops who think they're being green or something.

I cringe when I read your query whether to transport carless neighbors or your stuff. Take your neighbors, hon. They can help drive, pay for gas, pump gas in the hurricane rain, run in for food at the store while you guard your precious vehicle, and in general take care of you while you take care of them. I'm glad I'm not your neighbor.

Having multiple routes of egress is key. If you're preparedness minded its easy enough to watch traffic patterns around a holiday weekend and extrapolate that for a mass evacuation.

What main freeways were crowded going out of town last weekend for the holiday weekend? Those would certainly be areas to avoid. Also getting a Thomas Brothers guide or Google Maps and pre-plan alternate routes around those congestion areas.

One of my evac plans calls for dirt road that cuts through a national park that puts me scores of miles out of town before hitting the highway system. Its one of many plans I have for getting out.

Especially if your plan is just to get out of a danger zone, consider going in the opposite direction and then figuring a way to loop around. It may add a couple hundred miles but better than being stuck on the side of the road with 60,000 other people.

You just had to get personal.

Some of those with bikes could make it out faster than the gridlocked cars.
I have a 4x4 truck with camper and bicycles so I'm prepared.

Rush hour traffic here is such a nightmare on a normal day it probably would be faster to walk or bike (but then you couldn't carry much). Could run out a full tank just trying to get out of the Beltway. So many drivers would run out of gas. Dreary prospect.

Certainly faster to Metro out of the city if the system was still functioning. Just depends on the situation. Natural disaster with warning. Natural or man-made disaster without warning. Can never really know how you'll react until something happens. Probably it will never be a situation that arises.

Interesting how some people -- Phillip -- are so harshly judgmental on me personally for posting a query to generate a discussion.

The topic is a variation on the age-old question around here in a shelter-in situation of prioritizing one's family's needs when neighbors, who you may or may not know, never gave a thought to preparedness may come knocking on the door. But situations are almost never that extreme so it's hypothetical.

Perhaps there will be a compromise and the neighbors can hold the dog food. As for someone to ride shotgun holding a shotgun, I don't actually know anyone in the city who has said they own a gun. Virginians are another story. The laws in DC are still pretty strict.

It's a bleak topic. Think I'll put the roof basket back on. That would open up a couple seats.

I have a couple of bikes, hitch rack and two bike trailers. Would pass out from exhaustion before the Beltway. And my bike probably would be jacked.

The more I think about how awful for so many a mass evacuation would be, I'm inclined to pray more for that need to never arise. In addition to topping off the gas tank just in case it did.

Should cities mandate that in a mass evacuation, each car contain at least three or four people?

Akin to the rush hour High Occupancy Vehicle requirements?

My SUV is a Honda Element. It's actually shorter than an Accord, has little go and is widely regarded as ugly. But it is great in snow, for carrying camping gear, bikes and hairy dogs (no carpet). It certainly could not leap a guardrail.

Isn't a Land Rover an SUV?

Maybe I'll buy a motorcycle. And a sidecar for the dog.

Our potholes aren't that bad. If you detour off the freeway you'll end up in a cul de sac.

My neighbor with the Prius hybrid may have the best car for evacuating.

Wonder if she'd give me a lift....

Was just out for the evening dog walk. I couldn't leave behind neighbor pups.

I'll end up with a car full of dogs, their peops, and bags of kibble and greenies.

Great choice on the Honda Element BTW, I've never really heard a bad thing about it. Anyway, I was thinking about this hypothetical situation. While having a evac plan and proper protection is important, I think in a situation where you would need to possibly use (or brandish) a weapon to get out of town, the risks may be too great to be on the road at all. Lots of things can go wrong and those would be carjackers may have weapons too. I may be wrong, but if things were that bad, you'd need a minimum of a 2-3 vehicle convoy (with armed people) to have a chance of getting where you need to go. And then there's the realistic scenario of law enforcement covering some areas better than others. Not sure how they'd react to open carry, etc. There's so many serious unknowns that make evac unappealing, unless of course conditions at home give you no choice but but to leave. And in that case, leaving in a large group may be a better option. Sometimes there's safety in numbers.

Good God (Sean Connery accent)! LOL

Technically, the good old Land Rover COULD be described as an SUV. But considering what SUV actually refers to these days (basically big fake show-off urban vehicles pretending to have some offroad capability) I wouldn't even use it in the same sentence.

"SUV" does not equal "off-road".

A Land Rover/Range Rover is an SUV, just as the Ford Expedition being driven daily by a typical soccer-mom is an SUV (as she looks down on you while passing). I wouldn't trust either off-road because they're dressed up with tires designed for the highway. By switching tires a Land Rover can very easily be turned to off-road use.

Having a front-row seat for the Great Houston Evacuation of Hurricane Rita, I have to agree with this. Over two million people tried to get out of the city, blocking roads for three days before the hurricane. Some observations:

1. Mayor Bill White did ask people to leave behind their material goods and take those without cars instead. Some people listened, some did not.
2. Most families here own two vehicles and took both, adding to the gridlock.
3. A bicycle would have been traveled faster than the cars, at least until you were run over by a crazy driver. People were racing down shoulders, through ditches, and anywhere else they thought they might possiblely get their vehicle through.
4. Thousands of cars here left in parking lots and along the sides of the freeways after they broke down, overheated, or were otherwise abandonned. These cars were then broken into and stripped.
5. If you have kids and pets there's no room for neighbors anyway.

-Blast

Land Rovers are quite popular in Australia, but not without serious modification. Most of the ones I saw in the hills there had mods equal to about 50% of the sticker price of the vehicle or more. The ones that didn't were broken. I'd say it takes more than a tire switch to make them more than an SUV.

As the saying goes, cash, grass or a$$, no one rides for free. This is especially so in a crisis situation. I have enough room for me and mine, anyone who wants watashi-wa to share better square up and pay the bounty with something I need or they walk.

Thinking about DC and the events that could trigger a mass evacuation, a big hurricane ain't it -- that might be a go home early or don't go to work event, but not a mass exodus. By the time it moves that far inland a Cat 5 will be a Cat 3, lotsa rain and flooding at lower levels with storm surge near river level, but nothing to trigger a mass move to W.VA.

A man-made event could trigger it, but for that there would be little to no warning and the goal would be to move upwind.

Dagny,
What specific events do you see triggering such an evacuation and how much forewarning do you expect? Congress and the W.H. will have the most warning and will be long gone before the word gets to the general population.

Don't know your living situation, but unless you live at the level of the Potomac, I'd prep to bug-in or to have some strategic withdrawal points around town that would be "upwind". If you do decide to leave pack quickly and leave. You really won't have time to coordinate with your neighbor, triage his stuff and pack. Just load your pre-packed stuff into the Element and Go.

Dagny, you pose a very good, and old, question.

Much like you I am inclined to help people; I have don SAR and EMS for over 12 years, and not for the glory of it. (Though the fun red and blue lights are a good perk, LOL). The question of rescuing more people in lue of gear is not entirely how I look at it.

I have lived in areas where my neighbors would have stolen my truck from me if given the chance rather than work with me. If memory servers correctly there were unconfirmed reports that Katrina refugees were stealing from there hosting families. There is still the point that if you have the resources you should try to help some people, meaning pick those that you will help make a plan to involve them and bring them with you. This way you’re not picking up random strangers on the side of the road that you have no history with.

Given the opportunity I would take a preparedness drive and see how many side and back roads. Maybe power lines or dirt roads you can find. Seek out the roads that are unappealing to the average driver and you may find a route that will be longer in miles but NOT in time or gas. Perhaps carrying a bit of extra gas may pay off also. Google maps will pay off in spades on this.

The Honda element isn't what I would call and SUV. Yes, it has 4x4 and will go great in the snow. But hardcore off reading it may break, or lack the clearance. But dirt roads and some reasonable power lines you should have no problem. Keep in mind that a Ford Explorer has about 7 inches of cleanse.

I have to agree that what is being sold as an SUV/4x4 is not what I would like to take off road. Stock tires, and suspensions are made for highway driving and looking cool. Conversely do you really want to be rock crawling or taking on class 5 off road trails when you are evacuating? If you ventured up the, "old mountain pass" road that requires a supper lifted or modified or even a seriously modified vehicle and you get stuck, guess what, no one is going to come pull you out. If you have a winch, well that may help, a little.

The truth is that if you find a series of less appealing roads to the average driver, you will be more likely to not see traffic. But as you review these alternative routes ask yourself if you can take them when the weather is bad. Also I will pose the question, who said you couldn't drive on the grassy strip between the highways?

To sum it all up, I would say bring people, chose them wisely remember that the complexity of anything is not simply increased for every person you involve but expediential increased for every person you add. Also remember that being prepared is being ahead of the lemmings.



FYI, Honda element 2010 has 6.9 inches of ground clearance.

I agree! +1 on your post.

You also want to look at driving range. The smaller "SUV"'s like an Elemnet may get 20-25mpg but typically have a smaller than 20 gallon gas tank. The frame based SUV's and trucks may top out at 20mpg but will have a 25 gallon or larger gas tank so they can go longer distances. Some of the smaller v6 SUV's top out at 20mpg empty then drop significantly when loaded where a v8 based truck or suv will top out at 20mpg but will only drop 1-2mpg when loaded so you need to factor that into account as well.
Also remember some of those Element like SUV's are unibody or uniframe so a minor fender bender will put them out of commission where a body on frame vehicle can usually keep going. Chances are when people are ignoring laws while running for their lives they may not care if they bump into you.

When I moved last year one of my criteria was being outside the outerbelt. I work and live outside the city outerbelt mow so I didn't want to be living inside it like before. If I ever did have to evacuate I don't have to take the major highway, I can take side roads and get around traffic.

It is up to the driver to know the capabilities of their vehicle, what it can or can't do, and to stay within those capabilities. The same vehicle may not be able to do the same with different drivers.

What does my passenger have to ofter that I may need, will make a difference as the whether they go or stay, room permitting. Another deciding factor is "Do I trust them" either with my life, vehicle or stuff.

Pre-planning is a must in my book. Know who you are willing to take well in advance, and establish guidelines/requirements on what they are to bring with them.

The reality of evacuating the WDC area is not feasible. The major evacuation routes even during non-critical times are a nightmare. Frederick, which is in the WDC evacuation plans as a relocation destination, is really only accessible via 270. On a good day, 270 is backed up. No less during an emergency. While there is limited mass transit out of the area, the number people requiring evacuation though the use of mass transit far exceeds the capacity of the system to handle. Unless you evacuate early, sheltering in place is the only option possible. For evacuating the WDC area, a 4X4 is pretty much useless.

Pete

Many years ago, I looked at the C&O Towpath as a way out of DC.

The most plausible situation where I can foresee mass evacuation -- officially sanctioned or not -- is a dirty bomb. The initial blast would be survived by 99.9% of the population but the specter of invisible radiation would freak the rest of us out. I'd certainly be inclined to leave for awhile -- heading west toward the mountains where we frequently camp and where I have a trailer in storage.

I live a few blocks from one of the two major targets.

If I thought about it much I'd have to move. Many of us here assume something bad will happen someday but obviously don't expect it to happen in the next second or this day, or we'd be hitting the road by lunchtime. 9/11/01 was a perfect beautiful blue sky morning. No one imagined at sunrise that day that the Pentagon would be smoldering at sunset.

I posted this query because it is an interesting moral question. Most people in everyday situations, including me, are generous and quick to help. But depending on how such a crisis played out, there could be all kinds of reactions. Most people, I'd guess, haven't given this any thought at all and even those of us who have can't know for sure how we would react in a situation that hasn't unfolded.

It certainly argues once again for being as prepared as possible to grab-and-go. And to be very strategic in packing in advance, because we may well have to make a choice between a box of stuff, a cooler, and a neighbor who wants a lift (with their own stuff in tow, no doubt).

And which neighbor(s)? Would I just grab my dog and purse and take off? Would I check on all my friends? Take the first neighbor who asks for a lift, who I may or may not know well?

99% sure I'd check on my friends (all of whom have cars but may not have much gas) and acquaintances who live on my block. This presumes we're all home when whatever happens.

Something to think about.

I'm encouraged by memories of 9/11, when the roads -- including side streets -- quickly clogged, but drivers were remarkably calm and at least in my neighborhood obeying the traffic lights and stop signs. Perhaps everyone was in shock. Most had a very strong urge to get home -- commuters left ASAP and those of us who live here communed with our neighbors (I took three strangers in for a couple hours, one of whom was hyperventilating in front of my house, having been yelled at by police to run as fast and far as possible - leaving her car in her office garage). My home was walking distance and my car was actually in lock down and inaccessible. This city, on the busiest commuter day of the week - Tuesday - emptied out within a few hours. An unorganized mass evacuation of hundreds of thousands of commuters (residents mostly stayed). The freeways were deserted by late afternoon -- a motorcycle cop that evening told me it was eery.

Let's hope it never happens. Preparation can only go so far.

Dagny,
Speaking of shotguns. . . do you have one? Maybe a pistol in 9mm (or bigger).

Russ,

Because of where I live, if I did I wouldn't say so on the Internet. And I wouldn't say if I did not.

I will say that I have a couple canisters of bear spray and an axe (and a hatchet) with which I am quite handy and fit nicely behind the front seats.

And were fireams such as you mentioned within reach, I do know how to use them. I grew up in California and Oregon, daughter and grandaughter of men, and women, who believed in the right to bear arms and practicing regularly.

It has never occurred to me that I would need 4x4 prowess to get out of the city. We're going to be on pavement. The Element is fantastic in snow and I have tire chains were something to occur during winter (we rarely have substantial snow or ice).

My instincts are that fuel economy and capacity are more important. And the vehicle's mechanical reliability is equally important. Not going anywhere if the engine conks out.

That's why I'd trust my Honda more than a Land Rover.

The most versatile and reliable vehicles I own are mountain bikes and bike trailers. I should learn how to change a bike tire.

This discussion reminds me of a passage from a P.J. O'Rourke book in which he observes that the ultimate off-road vehicle is a rental car.

Any rental car.

I thought the DC laws regarding handguns had shifted to allow DC residents to own one legally.

We ride and walk the C&O frequently. Yes, that would be an excellent option for evacuating without a vehicle.

Helps that the C&O starts out in the least crime-ridden part of town, too.

I have a C&O map, will dig it out and keep it handy.

I believe it's still being litigated. The city has done its best to ensure that legally doesn't equal easily. The devil is in the details.

The long arms stipulations are also quite restrictive.

I'm confident that there are still a lot more illegal guns here than legally registered.

http://mpdc.dc.gov/mpdc/frames.asp?doc=/mpdc/lib/mpdc/info/pdf/firearms_eligible_registration.pdf

http://mpdc.dc.gov/mpdc/cwp/view,a,1237,q,547431,mpdcNav_GID,1523,mpdcNav,|.asp

I've started riding a lot of the converted rail trials like your C&O in DC. Just starting out with a trailer, kids seat and two kids I can ride an easy 10mph, 15 if I push a little bit. So if I had to some of those are alternate routs.

Sure 4x4 doesn't help evacuating a city by road, where it helps is if you need to hop a curb or U turn in the highway berm, the police are not very nice to you if your stuck in the middle of the berm

Communications are another essential, scanner and/or CB, you want to hear where the accidents are stopped traffic is.
Good maps, GPS, etc. You want street maps, bike trail maps, etc so you can plan alternate routes.

> I may be wrong, but if things were that bad, you'd need a minimum of a
> 2-3 vehicle convoy (with armed people) to have a chance of getting where
> you need to go.

I may have missed it, but in all the mass evacuations we've had over the decades, when did anyone need an armed convoy to get anywhere?

Um, never? There seems to be some conflation of real regional disasters, of which there have been plenty, and hypothetical apocalyptic events, of which there have been none, so far.

Nonetheless, the latter seems to occupy the thinking and planning of many preparedness-minded folks at least as much as the former. Moreover, there seem to be many popular misconceptions in circulation about what and how things will happen, especially with respect to government actions, in the type of disasters we do have some experience with, such as hurricanes, earthquakes and floods.

I have been to many or most of these regional disasters over the years, and I am pleased to report that neighbor-helping-neighbor seems to be the near-universal rule. Yes, some strange things did go down post-Katrina in NO, LA, but strange things are always going down there, hurricane or not.

In the event a truly nationwide or global apocalypse does occur, all bets are off, and Mad Max rules may well then go into effect. But short of that, we can usually expect most people to display the traditional American values of common decency, kindness, resourcefulness and concern for one another in times of adversity.

In addition to your "everyday carry" of a good tool kit and spare parts for your car, the following may be helpful in an evacuation, or post-disaster, especially if you are forced by unforeseen circumstances to take some bad or unimproved routes in a regular, non 4x4 off-road-ready car. You can do amazing things in a regular car, provided that you go slow, plan ahead and can accept significant damage or total loss and abandonment of the car:

- gas cans (very dangerous-emergency carry only)
- spare water/coolant
- full size spare, or two, mounted on rims (post disaster, there are lots of nails and other tire-shredding debris on the roads)
- Tow strap

For improvised off-roading:

- "Hi-Lift" jack (an amazing tool, for more than changing tires)
- Come-along with accessories and lots of chain or rope
- Shovel, axe, bow or chain saw, sledgehammer, hacksaw
- Carpet strips or other traction devices
- bolt and wire cutters (for gates and fences - only very extreme circumstances justify using these to access private property - try to minimize your damage. But public property like forestry roads may be gated or fenced off, too)
- The longest pry bar you can carry
- 2x4 and 4x4 wood pieces for cribbing
- Gazeteer or topographic maps

My experience AND upbringing is to leave no one behind.

The elderly couple across the street have a lifetime's wisdom & experience in their heads. Their thinking and recommendations are likely to help avoid a disaster while evacuating from a disaster.

The young diver next door has resources and skills to contribute.

I can go on & on. The bottom line is that, I feel, everyone has valuable contributions to add to the group's survival, if bugging out of a neighborhood became necessary.

Yes, I would assist the carless. Extra drivers would also be needed as well as extra guards, worker bees, etc.

I would be more inclined to give someone a ride if and only if they could contribute to the group's safety and well being.

No, I am not giving a ride to Sam and Suzy and the 3 kids (first off, my truck won't hold em) who expect "the government to provide" for them. Luckily, I am in an area where not too many people think that way.

I am throwing the gotta haves in first, to include self protection items, then the pets, then the should haves, then the nice to haves. After that, I see what I can do for others.

I can see agreeing to take a neighbor who you trust AND who has his go-bag already packed. But this isn't something you decide to do while you're lugging stuff from your home to the car. This neighbor/friend needs to be preselected and what he/she packs is agreed to and dovetails with your stuff.

The problem I see is any late/last minute packing and triage of gear that causes expensive time delays. All that needs to be decided way ahead of time.

Dagny,
How much stuff can you preposition with the trailer you have in storage to save room in your vehicle?

Very good and well made point, Russ!

Y'all might want to check out "Story of the Day 3" at

www.standeyo.com

It addresses some of the issues.

Excellent point. Truth is it's pretty well stocked except for food.

There's a bike out there, camp stoves, a couple tents, screenroom, hiking boots, backpack, winter clothes, etc.

My priorities for the car would be dog food, water, some clothes, people food.

The car itself is presently pretty well stocked with gear because we camp quite a lot. In fact, the rear seats are out for the season, replaced by two 48-gallon Action-Packers. The gear I normally take camping and don't keep with the trailer is packed and ready to go.

Perhaps I misread. The comments were based on my interpretation of the OP's hypothetical evacuation scenario. The point was that if things were dangerous enough to warrant having someone in the passenger seat literally ride "shotgun," it would likely be too dangerous to travel, especially without a group.

Coincidentally, I just got back from a dog walk and was thinking how it would be preferable for many reasons to caravan with some of my neighbors. If an evacuation were called, the roads will probably clog before I could get my car started.

I'd be surprised if any of my neighbors own guns.

All things considered, most city folk will consider bugging out a last option and will vacillate. Being ready to leave and not hesitating will be key to staying ahead of the wave. So if you do decide to leave with a neighbor/friend, that person needs to know that once you decide to leave, the timeline will be very compressed.

IMO, considering the reality of bugging out of any large metro area, if you can't get out early, you’d better have a Plan B.

Actually, in my case, bugging out is Plan B. The only thing that will get me to Bug-Out is a wildfire and my home being in a mandatory evac area.

For sheer bugout convenience in such a scenario, I would think it far more preferable to have a sturdy on-road/off-road motorcycle, something akin to what Ewan MacGregor used to circuit the globe with. A motorcyle like that can go places 4 wheel vehicles cannot, including the median or the shoulder, or cross country. You don't have the luxury of equipping like you would with a pickup or SUV, but if the objective is to get the heck out of Dodge, then having more gear with you is pretty insignificant if you can't get out. Plus, solicitations for rides are going to be a lot less likely.

Personally, I rather like the BMW R 1200 GS Adventure package. It fits me, and with 105 hp on two wheels, you can get out of Dodge quick, at least till you hit the deer.

Bikes, motorcycles or a really good driver with a SUV and proper tires should have no trouble depending on where one would get on/off the Towpath and how far you wanted to go.
I've seen ambulances and ranger vehicles on much of the towpath.

Don't forget the "Rail trails" and other hiking paths.

Indeed. Many of the two lane rural roads out here have no shoulder, so negotiating traffic might be less than 3 feet side to side clearance, with impassable ditches/dropoffs/obstructions at the edge of the pavement. In those instances, a motorcycle should be able to find clearance unless the lanes become completely obstructed as with a car crash or some such. No means of transport is going to be a sure thing, so it helps to have alternatives.

How about a pickup towing a trailer with two bikes on it? Then if traffic plugs up too much, at least you have a high speed alternative. If it gets too snarled, then foot traffic is almost always a final option.

Works for me! Finding a way to have a small bike trailer or 2 on the trailer with the bikes would be really great.

I would also add that as an emergency prep you may also want to get to know your neighbors better. If you live in a community where you can't trust at least a few folks after getting to know your neighbors, you may want to look for a new place to live.

After the DW and I moved into our new place we got to know our next door neighbor over a few drinks at a barbecue. It turned out he is a rescue swimmer and pilot survival instructor for the U.S. Coast Guard. He has taught me quite a bit and we have a great friendship now. I never would have known who he is if I didn't inquire beyond occasional greetings and small talk.

Take a complete read of this website.
I don't remember where I found it, but it is spot on for your situation.

Always a good plan. I know some of my neighbors quite well, others not so much. They all know my dog.

These are rowhouses, neighbors abound. For blocks. DC's population is highly transient.

I put the roof basket back on last night. It holds quite a lot.

:-)

I don't own a car and am a cyclist too. As a cyclist i think there are many advantages over cars.

I can happily cycle a 100 miles a day at around 20 mph and at a push can do a 200 mile day.
If on roads with traffic jams i can cut trough the traffic still doing 20mph.
I am not reliant on the range of the fuel tank and don't have to worry about empty gas stations.
I don't have to worry about the car breaking down or over heating, bikes are simple to look after.
I am not restricted to only roads, i can go across country and cycle through cordons and closed roads.
My fitness level is probably a lot higher than the average car owners fitness which equates to survival fitness and control of survival stresses.

Not owning a car definitely does not mean you are unprepared or that you cant look after yourself and that you are a burden on others.

So there you go Dagny. The bicyclists here endorse you not fretting a bit about the neighbors you leave behind. They are well prepared with their chosen mode of transport.

Yep, we moved in and started walking around meeting the neighbors. One was telling me about another neighbor into wooddorking like I am but to be careful because he has a lot of guns. So of course I now avoid that neighbor and talk to the gun owner/wooddroker more That same neighbor brough beer to a cookout with more kids than adults so the rest of the adults got to do nothing but keep the kids away from the beer for the reat of the time.

As others post, a motor vehicle though potentialy useful is not essiential, and in some cases a cycle might be preferable.

However everyone seems to be assuming a gasoline powered vehicle, would not diesel fuel be a better choice ?

Diesel fuel is much safer to store, and whilst I am not too keen on any fuel cans in a vehicle, diesel is far less of a risk.
Most diesel vehicles get better fuel mileage, thus a greater range from a given size tank.
Most diesel vehicles can in emergency run on kerosene or light heating oil, or cooking oil, which could be very valuable if regular fuel was not available.

For most natural disasters it might be best to stay put, provided of course that you live above flood level, have a strongly constructed home, and keep supplies for at least a week, and preferably for a month or more.

If you fear any release of radiation, then a geiger counter is essiential.
There is otherwise the risk of getting a greater dose stuck in a traffic jam, than would have been received staying indoors.

If you fear any release of toxic or noxious materials, then a good respirator helps to an extent.
Most toxic materials and chemical weapons are heavier than air, therefore in an urban area, the greatest safety might be achieved not by evavuation but by gaining access to the upper floors or roofs of tall buildings.

(makes me glad to work in a deep concrete basement, which is bomb and radiation resistant, but also have access to fresh air 10 floors up in case of any chemical incident)

Yep, bugging in is always a better option if it's viable. There are many unknowns that may be a higher threat once you leave home and join the masses hitting the road. If you can identify specific threats and make plans to deal with them rather than run from them it gives a bit more control IMO. That said, there may be specifics about Dagny's situation that dictate evac.

This has been a worthy mental exercise, thank you.

Because I'm smack in the middle of the city and there's no way I'd beat the crush without an hour heads-up before everyone else, I think the goal in such a scenario -- where sheltering-in is not the prudent option -- is to coordinate with neighbors on a caravan.

Something I do not have is a device to siphon gas and gas cans to put it in. I'd rather not risk sucking gas out with a piece of garden hose, which I recall my brother doing years ago to put gas in his motorcycle.

Some of these peops do have two cars. The second fuel supply would be more useful than dragging along a second car.

If things ever were so bad, I suspect the rural shall inherit the Earth.

Am now off to the Metro. Hopefully the train operator won't be texting....

. . . or sleeping

You beat me to it!

"If things ever were so bad, I suspect the rural shall inherit the Earth."

Only if they live in a fortress. Otherwise the zombies will get them just the same.

FYI, cars have siphon blockers that prevent easy extraction of gasoline from their tanks. Currently gas thieves just punch a hole in the bottom of the tank and drain the gas into a container. A less damaging but more difficult and time-consuming is to unhook several of the fuel injectors and direct their spray into a gas can. I' doubt that method is very effective though.

-Blast

Don't even waste time with the injectors, up until 2005 or so the fuel filter is usually under the drivers side door, unhook it and get the gas there. Or most newer ones ~2000 and up have a valve on the fuel line leading to the injectors, its a standard shrader (SP?) valve like tires so a length of fuel line and a screw on pump end works.
You have to figure a way to run the fuel pump manually, either through the prime terminal or wiring the relay and the fuel pump in a car is a high pressure low volume so it is slow to move fuel, figure hours to empty a full tank.
Really new stuff the engine computer controls the fuel pump via PWM so there is no external tank and relay so now you would have to find the wiring going to the pump.
If it gets that bad I'm looking for high ground clearance vehicles and unbolting the tank straps and taking the whole tank for fuel storage as well

I'm willing to spend quite a bit of money on preparedness, but if I lived in a city where a car wasn't normally needed, I don't think I'd buy one just for use in emergencies. I wouldn't condemn others for lack of a car, either.

As others have said, having 30% more cars on the road isn't going to make evacuation by car any easier. If you can get out early enough to beat the rush, you probably will also avoid people wanting to hitch a ride.

On the general subject of charity: efficiency is the enemy of resilience. If you only have just enough resources for yourself, then you are vulnerable to the unexpected. If you plan to have enough spare to give some away, then you have a safety margin.

Good for you. For those of us with families, this isn't an option.

Not true at all. There are handelbar child seats, rear child seats, trail a bikes, trailers, etc.

Look at some of the "bike trains" even http://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php?t=279527

A high end bike, seat, trailer and other gear is still cheaper to buy and own than even a low end car.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rAOHhV1EFe4

Is Bugging in the best option? I suppose it depends on the circumstances.

In many cases bugging out is the best option because you are moving away from the problem. By bugging out you are less likely to be an added drain on the local resources in the troubled area, even if you have stockpiled your own supplies you still take up resources even if it just time of some government official coming to take your details.

What if the situation worsens and then it is too late to bug out?

I don’t think there is any need for anyone not to bug out whether they have a car or not. In the exception of an earthquake; there is normally a warning or at least clues to something happening. If that is the case and you are switched on to seeing these clues and you have a plan, then bugging out in good time is possible for most people.

People that bug out normally leave it to the last moment. That is when you see footage of roads backed up with jams and all sorts of havoc. If you have read the clues, have a plan and act as soon as you see the clues. You can bug out with the minimum of fuss and be well clear of the area before the rest of the population have even thought about it.

If you don’t drive but have a plan and act you can be out of the area whilst the public transport systems are still functioning and not overcrowded by others bugging out. If you are a family and don’t have a car you can get a bus or train out, often in better comfort than sitting in a car on a gridlocked highway.

Plan for a bug out
Observe for clues of an immanent disaster
Act on your plan early

To PureSurvival-I take it you have Not lived in The USA! You write as if you have it All figured out,or perhaps,You only have you to,worry about!Have you ever Toiled, to own anything&Then have it taken from you?This is one of the Main states of mind,that is a constant,Before,During,&Afterwards of a Major Disaster,Even during/sustaining Injury thereof in many cases.I live in West Los Angeles presently,Bugging Out is Not an option,for Anything!I have lived in Georgia,Florida,Louisiana,Texas&Alaska,& have experienced Mother Natures wrath, in each of them.I have seen 1st hand how folks react,Before,during,&after Catastrophic Events.This is dagny's thread,she resides in the Metro area of Washington D.C.& It is a Quite unique area as far as the, mere Idea, of contemplating Bugging Out!What I am really attempting to point out is, the state of mind,during Evacuation/Survival in a Metropolitan area of The USA!WDC doesn't have the "Brotherly Love"San Francisco enjoys either,so relying on your neighbors,May Not be an option,not to mention the Horrible"Gun Laws".As Always,YMMV

Me and mine first, if we have room then we have room.
Simple as that.

> Good for you. For those of us with families, this isn't an option.

I think the bigger picture is that "I would resent having to leave supplies behind because my neighbors chose not to buy and maintain their own vehicle" does not mean people _have_ to choose to buy cars in order to be responsible members of the community. While you think not having a car is not an option for you, for some people it's a responsible decision "not to buy and maintain their own vehicle." Not having a car does not fit within the statement in the original post


It seems to be that some people think their rational decisions apply across the board to all people. Just as you object to people saying they get along fine without a car, others object to the apparent requirement that one buy and maintain a car to be worthy of aid in the event of a hurricane.

It appears obvious that different people have different needs and expectations and so not all "answers" are universal. Individual planning and decision-making seem to me to be good things, and coming to different decisions on how to deal with hurricanes should lead to a diversity of ideas, plans, and gear that will benefit the entire community.

Should the original poster find that all roads are blocked or that his vehicle has been wrecked or stolen, those who have no cars and who have the plans and gear to ride out the storm may be able to provide some assistance to those who remain behind. Let me turn it around: when you find you can't get out, should those who planned on staying and have the plan and materials to survive refuse to aid those who planned to cut and run? :->

So you live in the US; does that make it any different from anywhere else on the planet?

My mother was born in LA, my uncle lives in Florida and I have family in New York and yes I have quite a lot of experience of the US. Including storm chasing both tornados and hurricanes. I chased Floyd and Andrew and saw first hand the effects. I had friends that chased Katrina (and helped out with the aftermath). As a child I lived in Australia and lost my home to a Cyclone that made landfall in Yeppoon and also had to evacuate from forest fires that threatened our home.

In adult life work has taken me to many places in Africa that have been devastated by war or disasters from draught, floods, disease or famine. I also saw Yugoslavia being ripped apart so yes I have seen first hand the devastation to people’s lives.

The US does not have the monopoly on disasters but the US does have the resources and money to bounce back relatively quickly compared to some countries around the world, I have been to refugee camps that are over 20 years old and with little prospects for the people in them to go back to there homes.

There is one thing I have learnt, be a real man and walk away from a fight, heroes end up bleeding in the gutter. If the situation is that bad that bugging out is a option I will do everything in my power to get out.

You guys saw first hand the effects of Katrina and its aftermath, it filled your media, you saw the suffering which in many cases is still going on and you say bugging out is not an option? In some situations bugging out is the only option, so a bug out plan should be considered.

I cant really comment on Washington DC as I have only been there twice as a young lad but I do know it is a political and military target and being a metropolitan area has a very high chance of large scale civil unrest. For those reasons alone a bug out plan would be good idea.

My point was/is, not having a car is a lame excuse (just like other lame excuses) made by people after the event that did not plan or saw the clues or were too stubborn or lazy to bug out. If you have the will you will find a way to get out.

As for helping others bug out I can’t answer that, it’s all down to individual circumstances and your and the individuals needs of the person you are thinking of helping. In my case I would only help if it did not hinder my survival. I would try to give some advice to the young single mum that lives next door and make sure she bugged out and if the 4 meter coastal storm surge happened that they are predicting for the south coast of England happened then I would make sure that she and her daughter made it to high ground if the opportunity allowed.

The crawl fact is that even if you hesitated long enough to help your loved one you will perish with them.

I'd be surprised if those who were mindful enough of preparedness to plan for evacuating were not also better prepared for sheltering in.

I don't have a problem with people not having cars or people saying they get along fine without a car. In an emergency situation, I may have a problem with people who don't have cars expecting to catch a lift in mine. Or I may not. Can't know for sure until and unless such a situation arises.

A very good point Dagny but i think the fact you are on here and are thinking about the problem and you have a plan you are on the way to bugging out before others even think of bugging out. You just need to spot the threat early and consciously make the decision to put your plan into action. If you can do that you will be bugging out nice and early with the minimum of fuss before the panic of the masses.

If you can do this you will also be better placed to help someone in your community that you feel would benefit from your help, even if it is drive someone to a safer place and drop them at a red cross clearing station or the like, at least they will be there early and will probably be moved up the chain before the station is inundated with the panic of the masses.

In survival by having a plan you have made the first steps to being rescued. In disasters by having a plan you have made the first steps to surviving and limiting the damage for when it comes to rebuilding your life.

There are always possibilities. My plan is to accomodate my responsibilities first and foremost. Beyond that, it is at my discretion (as it rightly should be) whether or not to offer aid.

It certainly is better to have done some thinking, planning and preparing. Hopefully, if a crisis occurs, I will have now the instinct to prioritize basic needs: shelter-water-food. But the more you learn in this arena the more daunting it all seems -- evacuation or sheltering-in.

On a normal day within the Beltway, there is only a four-hour window (10:00a-2:00p) in which you can be reasonably hopeful (not confident, merely hopeful) that you are not going to run into traffic jams. The normal routine outgoing traffic jams -- bumper-to-bumper crawling traffic -- start around 2:30p and go until 7:00p.

The Potomac River cuts this metro area in half -- choke points at every bridge. And another complication, which I have not done nearly enough to prepare for, is that a post-9/11 emergency preparedness initiative in this city makes Pennsylvania Avenue a wall. In a mass evacuation, civilian traffic is not to be allowed to cross Pennsylvania Avenue. Pennsylvania Avenue is to be kept clear for emergency vehicles.

Those on the north side -- which is most residents and most downtown private office buildings -- will be forced to evacuate north through Maryland (bad neighborhoods between me and Maryland). This is not only a concern to me but will be a nightmare for a lot of Virginians who work in DC. One wonders how civilians will react if that policy is put into action in an emergency. On 9/11, many people left their cars at work and walked across Pennsylvania Avenue, several miles to their homes in Virginia and Maryland.

Given a choice, staying home is preferable. Evacuation in any scenario would be extremely stressful.

Just watch the next episode of "Meteor" next Sunday, you'll learn all you need to about evacuations and bugging out...;^)

Nope, sorry, I'm referring to the guy who objected to people saying they get along fine without a car because he had a family and needed a car. It's hard to keep the threads straight, even though they're indented, isn't it.

Sorry for confusing you.

werd - Parkour BOUnicycle (jk) - bikes are cool though: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z19zFlPah-o

Motorbikes are better - like a KLR 650...

A sea worthy sail boat with a desalinator and some fishing gear might be best of all.

I couldn't agree more.

Although there is a "HEAD FOR THE HILLS" mentality, because for some darn reason people in the city think people in the hills have food coming out their ears, and water flowing in all their backyards. I think it's just an imaginary wish of a 'great life'.... but there was a study someplace that showed a lot of ppl think "heading for the hills" is the answer.

Were they advised they might not have cable in the hills?

;-)

Well, there is much more likelihood of finding a nice garden to poach from in "the hills", and wells are much more prevalent, so water would be easy to poach as well. Not that I'd poach during an emergency or anything.

> A sea worthy sail boat with a desalinator and some fishing gear might be best
> of all.

If I remember the original query, it's about evacuating because of a coming hurricane. :-> I'd be very leery of putting out to sea to escape another Katrina on the east coast.

Depends on the boat - an acquaintance of mine tells the story of a couple who owned a 63 ft catamaran. Not the sort of boat you hire in the BVIs for a vacation, but designed for sprightly performance. A hurricane was due to land in the Caribbean - they set out and sailed around it!

The original thread also referenced terrorist attacks.

A boat would be an excellent option in several non-hurricane scenarios for those of us in the middle of this city. The Potomac leads to the Chesapeake Bay and that presents all kinds of options.

I have a kayak -- in storage in the mountains. Was already thinking of bringing that back to the city.

There is much to be said for a power boat or sailboat at one of the marinas around here.

Great thinking outside the car-box.

You could always save up the pennies and get a Little Nellie to get out of dodge pretty quickly. As you can see Little Nellie can fit into 4 large suitcases stored in the garage or a large cupboard.

Yes, for small families it would be fine. If, however, you have several children, including toddlers/babies, and, oh yeah, lets not forget a disabled parent. Then it doesn't work at all.

I'm not saying you have to have a car. I AM saying that one size does NOT fit all.

I was basically trying to say don't go the complete opposite and rule bikes as a mode of transportation all together.
Here is a family of 5 for example http://www.bikeforums.net/showpost.php?p=5603579&postcount=31

Some disabled/handicapped people are able to ride different kinds of recumbent bikes.

I'm not giving up my truck but have the bikes as a plan B should something happen to disable it.

Bikes have long made great Stage/Plan B transportation modes!!

thats my plan. If we would ever need to leave our house the truck with camper and bikes are going.

Izzy, we will likely see a lot of creepy stuff in a bugout situation that requires bicycles.

LOL!

Reminds of the new twist in group tourism in DC, and some families touring -- everyone in matching bright colored t-shirts.

Actually could be wise.

The family that bugsout together in matching outfits, stays together....

Let’s says there is an attack in WDC. Let’s even say the river traffic has not been halted. You evacuate the WDC via your kayak by way of the Potomac and reach the Chesapeake. Now what? Where will you go? Do you have friends along the Bay that can take you in or must they travel to pick you up? Where will you meet?

It is likely that communications in the area will tricky at best. Hotels will likely be full. Evacuation centers may become your only option at that point in time. Will they take your dog? Are the ones along the Bay really where you want to end up? If you stay on the east bank of the Bay, further evacuation out of the area might be possible, although I suspect most road ways heading south will be jammed, heading north back towards WDC is not viable. If you head to the Eastern shore, your evacuations routes become very limited.

While it may be your only option, I think a whole lot of preplanning would be required for this option. I think better options would be to head north, south or west. If you can make it to Frederick (assuming we have not been evacuated), you can always stay with us, if you don’t mind the mess and possibly having to bunk with one of my daughters or camp in the backyard .

Pete

You're very kind, Pete. We have friends with a farm in Myersville. Beautiful country out there.

Think I'd try to get back on the Oregon Trail, head west, and go home.

Fortunately, I love to camp and have tons of camping gear. Some of it here, much of it out near the mountains in Virginia where we usually camp.

We'd probably drown before getting far in the Bay in a kayak.

But the powerboat/sailboat owners have a nice option, in some situations.

Is that how to keep`m`out... hmm.. lol

First, it would have to be an evacuatable situation, like a hurricane, with enough warning to be effective.

Remember all those school buses that weren't put into use ahead of Katrina? The main parish had about 250 working school buses at the time. I know those buses carry 40-80 people, so if they carried an average of 50 each, that's about 12,000 people. On an evac route, I'm sure that takes up less pavement space than three people per private car (4,100 cars).

I've worked in the transportation industry, and most rigs are topped off with fuel at the end of each run.

So, all you would need would be prearranged drivers for those buses, have them go to predetermined neighborhood, and pick up people. The drivers could automatically take their families if they wanted to. Priority would be given to drivers who didn't have their own cars.

The same concept could apply to city buses.

Dagney, much of the Oregon Trail is fenced, the rest is paved.

I followed it from St. Joe to Oregon City one summer. Couldn't even get close to it in many spots.

Was actually thinking more in terms of Interstates.

But the actual trail would be more scenic.

I just now tried to picture my block (the people, not the homes) in a field or forest in West Virginia, and having to survive a month with what we brought with us.

One doctor, several lawyers, several bureaucrats, assorted political flacks, lobbyists, an architect, a shrink, a restaurant owner, a few college students, couple adolescents and a couple infants. And a bunch of dogs.

Between us a hundred takeout menus, and no cell signal.

Fodder for a television comedy. Or horror flick.


:-0

Properly done, I think that would make a hilarious movie. But you would have to add some 'real' people or everyone would be dead by the end of the first week.

You could be rich... write it up, submit it to a studio, and bam! :P L O L.

I`m sure you can't do any worse than some of those shows :P

LOL! I'd wager a fair amount that there's not a gun on the block. But someone could get violent with a Blackberry....

We could certainly be a top 5 reality series. Watching lawyers-lobbyists-bureaucrats suffer is bound to garner high ratings.

:-)

Yeah, I recall feeling some eyes on me when my gun safe was being offloaded with the tiltdeck tow truck when I moved in last November. Not too many gunowners on my block I reckon. Then again, none of them ever talk to me either, so they are on their own if/when the bubble goes up.

You mean your document safe

And when asked you be sure to tell them you wish you had money to put real things in there...

One of neighbors we met early on was telling me about another neighbor I should meet because of a common interest in woodworking but then quietly told me "he has a lot of guns though". My response was that I had only brought a couple of my guns so far as the rest were at my parents home. Hopefully she learned to assume that not everyone she talks to is as liberal as her
Later on the same group of neighbors were over for a birthday party and saw more than one ammo box in the top of my closet and said they knew where to go if they ever needed anything.

I don't want anybody to know what I might, or might not have, in my armoury.

I agree, but don't limit that to your armory... life in general NO one needs to know too much.

That's why I own a Jeep and my roommate owns a Toyota 4wd pickup. When the crap hits the fan, roads become a luxury. I've never yet found anywhere I can't get to in my Jeep, and I've been a lot of places through some very rough stuff in it.

It may not be as roomy as a large SUV, but it's extremely 4wd and I have a cargo rack I can throw on it in about 2 minutes.