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#175224 - 06/23/09 11:40 PM Re: Old Nalgene bottles [Re: Stu]
DaveT Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 08/15/03
Posts: 208
Loc: NE Ohio
I just ordered a batch of 10 bottles off eBay...works out to about $4 each with delivery. I should be just about set for life now with Nalgenes.

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#175229 - 06/24/09 02:53 AM Re: Old Nalgene bottles [Re: Blast]
haertig Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 03/13/05
Posts: 2322
Loc: Colorado
I've been using some old translucent Nalgene bottles for years (since about 1975 or so). They've got little brown spots in the bottom from the iodine stains (the water purfication standard of those day). I've poured boiling water into them to make a hot jello drink while backpacking.

I'm not dead yet. Never spent a night in the hospital either - except when I was born.

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#175236 - 06/24/09 11:58 AM Re: Old Nalgene bottles [Re: haertig]
raptor Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 04/05/08
Posts: 288
Loc: Europe
Here we go again:

Quote:
BPA chemical leaches from plastic drinking bottles into people

May 21st, 2009

(PhysOrg.com) -- A new study from Harvard School of Public Health (HSPH) researchers found that participants who drank for a week from polycarbonate bottles, the popular, hard-plastic drinking bottles and baby bottles, showed a two-thirds increase in their urine of the chemical bisphenol A (BPA). Exposure to BPA, used in the manufacture of polycarbonate and other plastics, has been shown to interfere with reproductive development in animals and has been linked with cardiovascular disease and diabetes in humans. The study is the first to show that drinking from polycarbonate bottles increased the level of urinary BPA, and thus suggests that drinking containers made with BPA release the chemical into the liquid that people drink in sufficient amounts to increase the level of BPA excreted in human urine.


full article: http://www.physorg.com/news162133540.html

Labeling this whole case as scare or BS is not counterargument at all. "I am not yet dead." or "I like Nalgenes, I will continue to use them!" type comments are not arguments either. I think some people defend polycarbonate bottles without evidence as if they are hard-core fans. What´s importatnt is that the research in this area continues. It´s good to keep of track of new studies.

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#175243 - 06/24/09 02:13 PM Re: Old Nalgene bottles [Re: raptor]
thseng Offline
Old Hand

Registered: 03/24/06
Posts: 900
Loc: NW NJ
Originally Posted By: raptor
Here we go again:

Quote:
BPA chemical leaches from plastic drinking bottles into people

May 21st, 2009

(PhysOrg.com) -- A new study from Harvard School...

All this study says is that some BPA in the plastic seems to get into the water. Which we might expect.

We still have no evidence if BPA is harmful to humans and if so, in what dosage. It should be noted that the concentration of BPA in their urine was already X ppm before they started and only went to 1.69X after drinking from the PC bottles. Also note that the article doesn't report what the actual concentrations where. For all we know, the normal level could be 3 molecules of BPA per thousand gallons and drinking from the bottles brought it up to 5 molecules.

We could just as well say:
New study shows that drinking water often results in increased levels of water in the urine. Exposure to water has been shown to cause drowning in certain animals, such as lab rats. Therefore we should stop drinking water.

This is the problem with most "science" reporting and a lot of the science itself.
_________________________
- Tom S.

"Never trust and engineer who doesn't carry a pocketknife."

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#175246 - 06/24/09 02:49 PM Re: Old Nalgene bottles [Re: raptor]
haertig Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 03/13/05
Posts: 2322
Loc: Colorado
Originally Posted By: raptor
Labeling this whole case as scare or BS is not counterargument at all.

No one is trying to present a counterargument (at least not me). I think most are just stating that we don't care about this "study", which seems a bit over the top to me, the way it's described. If you don't want to drink from Nalgene bottles ... then don't. I won't try to counterargue with you and convince you that you should.

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#175248 - 06/24/09 03:19 PM Re: Old Nalgene bottles [Re: Blast]
Mike_H Offline
Addict

Registered: 04/04/07
Posts: 612
Loc: SE PA
Originally Posted By: Blast
Quote:
Long story, short is I will not begin to need to shop in the ladies' department for undergarments, right?


Correct...unless you just like the way they feel. grin

-Blast


Oh my! Blast needs to hang out with guys more... All those females at home are starting to get to him!
_________________________
"I reject your reality and substitute my own..." - Adam Savage / Mythbusters

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#175254 - 06/24/09 05:23 PM Re: Old Nalgene bottles [Re: thseng]
raptor Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 04/05/08
Posts: 288
Loc: Europe
Originally Posted By: thseng
All this study says is that some BPA in the plastic seems to get into the water. Which we might expect.

We still have no evidence if BPA is harmful to humans and if so, in what dosage.


I think there is such evidence and it continues to accumulate.

Just a few examples:

Bisphenol A linked to metabolic syndrome in human tissue

Bisphenol A linked to chemotherapy resistance

Higher urinary levels of commonly used c...sease, diabetes

Our Exposure to Controversial Chemical May be Greater than Dose Considered Safe

If you search for BPA on physorg.com you will get this list: http://www.physorg.com/search/?search=BPA . I reccomend reading the articles.

Also this is quite interesting. Quoted from this article: Study: BPA research might have been bias

Quote:
Among government and industry experiments on lab animals and tissues, 153 found adverse effects and 14 did not. The majority of those reporting no harm were funded by chemical corporations, the journal Chemical & Engineering News reported.

Now an editorial in the journal's April 16 issue by Senior Editor Bette Hileman highlights a number of potential sources of bias behind the inconsistent study outcomes, including the use of strains of rats that are insensitive to estrogen and choosing batches of animal feed that vary widely in their estrogenic activities.


And from this article: Better science, please

Quote:
The FDA has relied primarily on two studies funded by a trade association for makers of BPA. In April, an international consortium of scientists rejected the government's use of those studies.

These latest e-mails reveal an agency less concerned with consumer safety than with how the chemical's maker viewed the product's safety. This makes about as much sense as asking the oil industry to craft energy legislation.


This is also interesting article (note it is older then some articles I linked before): Hot liquids release potentially harmful chemicals in polycarbonate plastic bottles

Quote:
All bottles were subjected to seven days of testing designed to simulate normal usage during backpacking, mountaineering and other outdoor adventure activities.

The UC researchers found that the amount of BPA released from new and used polycarbonate drinking bottles was the same&#8212;both in quantity and speed of release&#8212;into cool or temperate water.

However, drastically higher levels of BPA were released once the bottles were briefly exposed to boiling water.

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#175260 - 06/24/09 07:53 PM Re: Old Nalgene bottles [Re: raptor]
Blast Offline
INTERCEPTOR
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 07/15/02
Posts: 3760
Loc: TX
From your link:
Prior to boiling water exposure, the rate of release from individual bottles ranged from 0.2 to 0.8 nanograms per hour. After exposure, rates increased to 8 to 32 nanograms per hour.

Belcher stresses that it is still unclear what level of BPA is harmful to humans. He urges consumers to think about how cumulative environmental exposures might harm their health.


To put things in perspective 1 nanogram = 0.0000000000022 pounds or 0.000000000001 kg for our non-American readers. That's eleven zeros to the right of the decimal point.

Let's say I fill my 1 liter Nalgene bottle with boiling water to keep my feet warm overnight. If the water in my bottle remained boiling all night long (say eight hours) and then I slammed the whole liter of water, worst case is I would imbibe 256 nanograms of BPA which is 0.00000000056 pounds of BPA.

Now if we look at O'Connor's & Chapin's often-quoted paper on the xenoestrogen effects of BPA we see he had to give dose of 1.5mg of BPA per kilogram of body weight per day for the entire gestation period to get any measurable effects.

Hmm, 256 nanograms equals 0.000256mg, so someone would need to drink 5859.4 liters of BPA-contaiminated water per kilogram of their weight daily for nine months to suffer these effects.

-Blast, Ph.D.
_________________________
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#175261 - 06/24/09 08:16 PM Re: Old Nalgene bottles [Re: raptor]
thseng Offline
Old Hand

Registered: 03/24/06
Posts: 900
Loc: NW NJ
Bisphenol A linked to metabolic syndrome in human tissue
Quote:
They found that exposing human tissues to BPA levels within the range of common human exposure resulted in suppression of a hormone that protects people from metabolic syndrome.

Doesn't say how much the hormone was supressed. Water can cause drowning.

Bisphenol A linked to chemotherapy resistance
Again, how much resistance?

Higher urinary levels of commonly used c...sease, diabetes
Quote:
Independent replication and follow-up studies are needed to confirm these findings and to provide evidence on whether the associations are causal," the authors conclude.

See, there is still no evidence.

Our Exposure to Controversial Chemical May be Greater than Dose Considered Safe
How, exactly, was the "safe" dose determined to begin with? We still don't know how much is harmful.

Hot liquids release potentially harmful chemicals in polycarbonate plastic bottles
So? How liquids release more BPA than cold but we we still don't know how much is bad. According to the previous article, 1 microgram per kg of body mass is considered "normal exposure" (doesn't say over what time period) and this article says hot water causes a up to 32 nanograms per hour of release. Let's say you boil some water and leave it in the bottle for three hours and then drink it, that's about 100 nanograms of BPA added to your exposure. Uh, that's an increase in exposure of 0.1% Wow.

_________________________
- Tom S.

"Never trust and engineer who doesn't carry a pocketknife."

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#175262 - 06/24/09 09:35 PM Re: Old Nalgene bottles [Re: Blast]
Still_Alive Offline
Finally, I am a
Member

Registered: 04/08/08
Posts: 119
Loc: Utah
Originally Posted By: Blast
From your link:
[color:#000099]

Let's say I fill my 1 liter Nalgene bottle with boiling water to keep my feet warm overnight. If the water in my bottle remained boiling all night long (say eight hours) and then I slammed the whole liter of water, worst case is I would imbibe 256 nanograms of BPA which is 0.00000000056 pounds of BPA.



What Blast fails to mention is that for some of us, drinking water that had been anywhere NEAR our feet all night (especially after a long hike) could be potentially fatal. I think my wife really loved me right up until I took my shoes off after that first long hike...
_________________________
“Learning is not compulsory... neither is survival.”
W. Edwards Deming

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