The 2000 Ford Windstar is developing a severe case of body rot. The unibody is going fast, the on-board computer is getting senile, the repairs are jumping from $250 now and then to $450 every two months. It's time. We normally don't buy new cars, the Windstar is the first - and only - new vehicle I ever bought and I saved up enough cash to buy it outright but paid for it with Amex for the points in late 1999. Now I'm ready again to get a replavement mom mobile and something for me too. I have a 1997 Jeep Grand Cherokee and it's hanging in there but at over 200K miles and with a lot of hard use, I can't expect much more.

I hate cars, I hate car shopping, I hate managing cars, I hate everything about dealing with cars. I think of cars as a troublesome necessity of life - so that's why I am asking for some opinion here.

I think we're going to buy new again, at least the mom mobile. I'll be OK with my jeep until the wheels fall off and the tranny fails (again). We can make new mom moblile a once every 10 years habit, I guess. I have looked at the vehicles from GM and Chrysler, and they have some phenomenal deals - but I have to admit that I have little confidence that parts and service will be easy to obtain in the near future. GM just sold the Hummer division to a Chinese company, they are also selling Saturn and Opal. Chrysler is heading to Fiat...and who knows what else. I have to admit that these facts and others have put GM and Chrysler in a very negative light for me as a buyer with a 10 year ownership horizon.

I have been looking at the Subaru Forrester, The Honda Oddesy, and even the Toyota Scion B they are pretty darn good. I've driven the hybrid SUV's - not impressed at all compared to the Prius, a vehicle I really like (my father in law has one). We need to transport 3 of my own kids plus any random number of spare kids that end up coming along for the ride, so 3 rows of seating is a must. I wish they still made decent station wagons.

Anyway, if anyone wants to talk cars...this would be a great time for it. Should I consider the Chevy or the Chryler products at all? What do you think?

Now that we have 6 kids, we had to upgrade from one of those 2000 Windstars to a 2001 Chevy Astro. The Astro was the only thing short of a 12 passenger van that has seats for our 8 people without climbing over the seats to get in and out. It also has a skosh more cargo space. I do miss the second sliding door, though.

Still have the Windstar for the moment if you want to do a lateral move - 106k miles, runs good, anti-lock brake idiot light comes on randomly, power door locks and rear vent windows work when they feel like it.

Would have been nice to get the AWD version of the Astro for a BOV but that's twice as much drivetrain to break. I'm not too worried about parts, the aftermarket ought to be able to take care of that. A male in my family must work on his own car no matter what, so it's not like I'd ever take it to a dealer anyway - death before dishonor.

I have a hunch that the parts availability issue will not be the major problem some think it will be. I'm guessing that the after-market and subcontractor suppliers will be around to service the market demand, regardless of what GM does.

I say if you can get a bargain price on the vehicle you want, go for it.

But what do I know?

Honda was supposed to have a new V6 diesel in the Pilot and Odyssey this year which would have made them pretty perfect. Oh well, another diesel letdown. Been looking at the 2009 Forester myself. Everything looks good except the 4speed auto but it still gets very respectable mileage (20/26) so its not that big a deal. Of course, there's a six speed Forester diesel for sale in Europe that's supposed to be here in 2010 but I ain't holdin my breath.

For philosophical reasons the only American company I would look at is the Ford Motor Company. I'd take a close look at the Taurus X and the Flex. They offer 7 passenger seating. The Forester would be my hands down favorite, despite only seating five, if Subaru could convince themselves to get rid of the archaic 4-speed auto and replace it with a 6-speed auto. Even Ford managed to pull that off. Otherwise, it would most likely be a Toyota RAV4.

Standard Disclaimer

2 cents

Ford is actually doing pretty well right now. In fact, Lincoln was the only car company this month that was in the green and Ford itself did better than Toyota, Honda, and Nissan. Their vehicles are getting much better as well, much less is the way of reported problems vs. vehicles from just a few years ago. If I was going to buy a vehicle from one of the "Detroit 3" right now, it would probably be a Ford.

With that said, Chrysler was just bought by Fiat and is being heavily restructured, so one could say they are slowly on their way back. GM just declared bankruptcy and has around 3 months to work it all out. With that said, GM will still be around as four core brands (Chevy, GMC, Buick, Caddy); they will just have less dealerships and less debt.

Finally, if either company does happen to disappear completely, the government put into place a "Warranty Support Program" that basically means your warranty will be carried over to a third party provider, allowing it to still be valid. Therefore, there is really no reason to worry about whether or not your warranty will be good.

From what I can gather, a lot has been put into place to ensure that the consumer will still be safe buying a Chrysler or GM product. Therefore, I would go for it, especially if what I wanted was from one of GM's core brands or Chrysler/Dodge.

On a side note, resale value is in the s***er no matter what you buy now, be it import or domestic. We bought a $45,000 lexus RX330 new in 2007. Today, with only 18,000 miles on it, it's worth about $25,000. So, we're talking $10,000 a year lost on a Lexus (with less than average mileage), which is supposed to have one of the best resale values out there. If you're going to buy something now it's best to either get rid of it within a year or hold onto it for a long time (saving for a new vehicle along the way.) It's not like it was a few years ago when you could buy something, hold onto it for a couple years, and then buy something new with a minimal loss.

I personally would not consider a GM or Chrysler right now. But there probably are good deals out there if price is what you're after. My worries are not so much about parts availability - somebody (3rd party) will pick up the slack (or most of it) - but more about convenience. With all the dealerships being closed getting your warrantee work done might well involve a significant drive to one of the dealers that is still open. As time goes on, more and more dealerships will probably close and it might get more inconvenient. So even if GM and Chrysler pull themselves out of bankruptcy, you can count on less convenient warrantee work (fewer places to go), unless you happen to live near a dealership that remains open for the length of your warrantee. And there is no guarantee that you will end up in that lucky situation.

You also have to remember that 3rd parties do not currently make each and every part that's in an automobile. So it may be a while until some parts are ramped up and become available from 3rd parties, if they ever are. 3rd parties will be handling parts that they can make a profit off of. The manufacturers stock more parts because they realize that you'd never buy another car from them again if you couldn't get parts for the current car you bought from them. 3rd parties won't have this customer-continuity thing hanging over them, so they'll concentrate on the more common and profitable parts.

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p.s. - So what GM and Chrysler were worried about - nobody would want to buy a car from a bankrupt company - is true in my case. But what they didn't understand is that I would not have bought a car from a company that should have been in bankruptcy and was artificially held out of that state by bailouts. For me, "bankruptcy" and "should have been in bankruptcy" are exactly the same thing. I wouldn't buy from either. So save the taxpayers money and do away with the ill-conceived bailout.
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Wait and see who buys Saturn. It's not one of the brands GM wants in the "good GM", but we've had nothing but good service from the Saturn Vue we have.

. . . or go back to Ford. I'm driving a Ford Ranger older than your Windstar with no thoughts of switching. At least with Ford you'll get a vehicle designed by an auto company and not a car designed for White House committee approval. . .

The parts & service for GM & Chrysler will likely be a non-issue. I have been a jeep owner for YEARS, and parts are never hard to come by. There are enough after-marktet makers that finding parts wont be a problem. As for warranty issues, Haertig may have a point; I'd do some investigating there.
My current Jeep is the first new vehicle I've ever owned,and it is about out of warranty (well, technically, it IS, as I well exceeded the mileage). I have yet to have an issue with it. But, that was something that they kept all along-simple design, easy to fix if broken (at least in the Wrangler models). Had I a choice now, I wouldnt give up my jeep, but, I would likely have gone with a more economical car as well.

Marty, I have given some more thought to your question. I was thinking you may want to consider a three vehicle option. It sounds crazy but work it over in your mind. First, look at what your DW needs for her daily use. It looks like her and three kids. Four passengers; total. Leave out the contingency of "random" passengers for now. I would stick with the smaller SUV/minivan option for her. Second, you have pretty much defined your direction. You will stick with the Jeep for now. However, a move to a quality used pickup or true frame-based SUV (think Nissan Xterra) is in your future. Third, the contingency option for more than 5 passengers needs to be dealt with. I would seriously consider a Ford Econoline van. They are a true multi-tasker. You will have room for an army if needed along with the capability to remove the seats and haul an army's worth of stuff. Also, you can camp in it if you desire. The van sounds expensive gas-wise, but when you are considering moving many people fuel efficiency gets left out of the equation IMHO. The UberVolksMover probably wouldn't see as much action as anticipated.

Feel free to disregard anything you want.

Standard Disclaimer

2 cents

I'm not much help on buying cars - I have owned beater and new Toyotas since I could drive. My sister though who is a careful and frugal shopper bought a Honda Odyssey to move her brood + frequent moves with a chunk of the soccer team, and likes it alot. I think it sits 7.

If I were on the market for a family van I might go retro, and get an old style VW van. Our family of 10 grew up in two of them, one with the old style double doors and one with a sliding back door. Besides a weak engine that seemed to blow up on steep mountain passes (part of the family adventure) it was a great, great vehicle for kids and to drive. No seatbelts, you could stuff an infinite number of kids in it in the day. Fond memories in later life of getting a ride home from school with a cheerleader on my lap (thanks mom!) Also learning to drive, the manual transmission was so smooth you could skip lower gears with ease (which both freaked out and impressed the driving inspector). Does VW have a more modern equivalent?

Every vehicle I've owned has been a GM save 1 Chrysler, I just bought a Toyota Sequoia. Question answered,

Honda. Hands-down, the Honda Odyssey. It's the #1 minivan for good reason.

After over four years with my Honda Element (built in Ohio), I still adore it. Could not be happier, it's been 100% trouble-free. If I were minivan shopping, Honda would be my first and last stop.

Just this weekend I was talking to a fellow camper who was raving about his Honda Civics. His first one, '97, lasted over 200,000 miles with little trouble. So he went out and bought another '97, a lower mileage Civic.

Toyota's are synonymous with quality, too.

GM or Chrysler - no way in the world, especially now that GM is Government Motors. They're toast. Burnt toast.

I'd look at Ford in another year or two, assuming they'll still be in good shape (I'm hopeful for Ford).

Good luck!

If I had my druthers I would buy a Jeep Commander fully loaded and set up for off road. I have a couple friends who took the plunge and they say the platform is solid. I might consider a Dodge Ram with a Cummins Turbo Diesel, but that would be a stretch.

I may look into the dodge/cummins next, the half ton limits the size of camper I can haul/tow. I have a small one now, a guy bought it who had one of the new Toyota "full size" and it couldn't handle it so he sold it. He was impressed that mu 1/2 ton truck handled the weight so much better than his and couldn't beleive I was getting better gas mileage too.

I always laught when I see people talk about how their Toyota/Honda went x# of trouble free miles that it was so great, but all the GM cars/trucks on the road going the same amount of trouble free miles are somehow not as good.

Eugene,

Is it your belief that GM has as good a track record of manufacturing reliable vehicles as Honda and Toyota?

I work for a major automotive supplier (4th or 5th largest, depending on the state of bankruptcies right now). We supply to most every automotive company out there, though by far most of our parts to to U.S. or European companies. We make a few parts for Asian companies - but not many. It is VEEERRRYYY difficult to sell to them.

Folks see a Toyota or Honda plant in the U.S. and think it is a "U.S.-made" vehicle. It is simply not the same. Almost every single part comes from an Asian plant. It is only assembled in the U.S. Yes, some parts for the big three come from offshore, but a lot of those are from factories owned by U.S. companies. Much of that money stays in the U.S.

Quality was a huge difference back in the 70's, but things are different now. Very different. People are fooling themselves if they think that is the reason not to by from the big three.

I used to work for GM 20 years ago. Even back then they would buy Hondas or Toyotas for comparative testing, and they would find that the quality of some models - especially their first year models - were so poor - in a relative sense - they'd stop testing them. 20 years has brought an amazing change in quality to U.S. cars AND trucks.

J.D. Powers' 2009 dependability ratings - the top two spots are Jaguar and Buick, Lexus at #3, Toyota at #4, and Mercury at #5.

In J.D. Power's 2009 dependability ratings the Chevy Malibu and Ford Fusion beat out the Toyota Camry, and Honda Accord. The Pontiac Grand Prix beat the Toyota Avalon. The Dodge Dakota and Ford Ranger beat out the Toyota Ridgeline and Toyota Tacoma. The Dodge Dakota beat the Toyota Highlander and was much better than the Honda Pilot. The fullsize Chevy Silverado 1500 beat the Toyota Tundra. You see a pattern here?? The only categories where the Asian vehicles have full quality advantage is the compact, subcompact cars, and minivans.

All orders are down. Its not a quality thing. Its just that folks in the U.S. are not buying new cars.

Chrysler orders have already started to ramp up toward pre-bankruptcy levels. They are coming back.

GM will come back too. No doubt.

Folks who bought Pontiacs will probably buy other models.

What does it mean when someone buys Saturn & Hummer from GM. Many (most?) of the models are on GM platforms (Hummer H2=Tahoe, Hummer H3=Trailblazer, Saturn Aura=Chevy Malibu). GM will still be selling them the platforms for a while at least.

Parts and dealers won't be an issue.

Please, do buy from the big three. I don't care which one. Most of that money stays in North America (mostly the U.S.). If you buy a European car, at least some of that money stays in North America. If you buy an Asian car, VERY little of that money stays in North America.

I'm not a protectionist, but I do believe in national pride and doing what is right for my country. I think it would be disastrous for the U.S. send all manufacturing off-shore, but it is happening. I want my kids and their kids to be able to find jobs and earn a living. That is not a political statement - just a personal view.

I was listening to a talk radio program this week and someone who called in stated they were a current large American auto dealership in California that is not suffering as bad as his competitors. However he did say that part of his current money woes was not selling vehicles it was servicing them.

Where he used to do $25,000 a month in warranty repairs, now he is lucky to do $5,000 and as he somewhat admitted, that is where a lot of his company income/profit comes from. But what he was attempting to do was speak to the quality of the American brand.

About Thanksgiving time I purchased a new-to-me 2002 Chrysler Town & County minivan from a Chrysler dealership. I got a great deal on the van, and was comfortable that the government would ensure that the 5-year/50,000 mile warranty would be honored. Overly optimistic? Perhaps, but so far I've seen nothing to make me question the assumption.

The Town & Country has been great. Much more comfortable, if not as much fun as, the Subaru Outback that we also own. I hate that I drive a minivan (I wanted a truck) but I have to admit that it is a supremely useful vehicle that can carry my wife, kids, me and a set of grandparents in comfort, if not style. If I take out the rear bench, it swallows up a surprising amount of stuff as well.

So far maintenance has been what I would expect of a car it's age: a vaccuum line developed a pinhole from dry rot and needed to be replaced, and I'll need to spring for new tires soon.

I guess I'm saying I wouldn't discount the very aggressive pricing that is being offered by the American dealers right now, if I were looking to buy a car.

With all due respect, corporate wellfare is not something we should be supporting. We all lose when the taxpayer is forced to subsidize one industry over another.

Like what's happening with Wall Street?

If nothing else, we're subsizizing 2 industries...

Marty, I think you'd be OK with any of the big 3. I grew up in a Ford family, even though we've owned Chevy, Datsun and VW along the way. My personal experience has been that Fords tend to do great for about 120K miles, then problems slowly start developing. We've gotten about 180K out of every vehicle before we get a new one, though I couldn't honestly tell you how long they would have lasted. Yes, I know the allure of an Asian car lasting 200K or more is tempting, but as someone said, they mostly do that in the smaller cars. I'm kind of eyeing the market right now too, and like the Nissan XTerra, but like some of the GM and Dodge trucks too. I'd stick with an Explorer if Ford hadn't wussified it and made it a glorified minivan (personal opinion of my dad's 2007 vs my 1999 Explorer).

Anyway, given that folks can find parts to a '55 chevy, tons of classic Corvettes, or WW2 era Willy jeeps, I think you'll be fine finding parts for something that's only been out of production (if the company totally tanks) a few years.

you have no idea how many times i come home and there's 3 or 4 unexpected extra kids around...we have the house that seems to ALWAYS have a massive amount of kids around...and it's only planned now and then.

7 passenger is our "EDC" for the vehicle...

Thanks everyone. After all of this input and with careful consideration, we have decided....


...to do nothing.

We're going to run the Ford until it completely breaks down and we've set $4,100 a year as a budget to keep it on the road.
The logic is that $4,100 is about the same as car payments, we have no expectation of a resale and we have no need to take on debt. I don't care how the car looks so I'm taking it to a shop and welding the damn rocker panels myself with something to stiffen it all up. I was able to reset the computer and disable some of the automatic features with creative wire snips

So thanks, this was useful.

Marty, I like your call. When you mentioned the repair cost in the first post it was far less than a car payment. The one thing that finally made me change my mind a ton of years ago was this: how much anxiety am I allowed to inflict on my wife due to an iffy car? It came to the point that she was not comfortable driving because any problem is big when you are not home. I am guessing that point hasn't come yet for you; and I hope it doesn't for a long time.

2 cents

Then they grow up into teenagers and they all have their cars parked at your house. Kiss your current "reserved" parking space goodbye!

Back in Feb, I looked at an Element, and a Scion xB - liked both, went with the Scion for 2 reasons

1)The Element has a 2 passenger rear seat - no middle belt, and in fact, has a storage compartment in the middle

2)I couldn't GET an Element - would have had to wait and put my name on a list - the Scion was delivered next day!

Of course I was replacing a 1993 Saturn SL2. Car was OK, but had gotten to the point where monthly maintainence was north of $450 - the car payment was less. In fact, what I'm doing is dropping in almost $600/month, and paying off WAY early

Always been a jeep guy. My first Cherokee Sport (1991) had 350000 miles on it and after I was done with it my dad still abused it. I had to change shifting sensor on it after racing stock car in the rockies but that was the only problem I had with it. Only reason it went to the junk yard is because it rusted thru so much that you couldnt even weld anything to it. My second Cherokee Sport (2000) was also great. No major problems but after 6 years of hard use I was told that I will need to put $5000 into it. I sold the car and was looking for a new one. Sad to say Jeep wasn't a choice anymore. All my friends who had them were facing constant problems. I'm not talking about little things but major stuff like blown transmitions etc etc... I went with Nissan. When people said that they dont make them like they used to I wrote it off as nostalgia talk. Not anymore thou. I'm all for buying American (whatever that means today) and keeping jobs here but not when local stuff is crap.

I would buy a 2009 Dodge Ram 2500 to replace the 2005 Dodge Ram 1500 I currently have. I have not been impressed with Ford or Chevy (particularly Chevy) products in this work range. We have a 29 ft. trailer that we haul to dog sled races (living quarters, equipment and animal transport) so 4wd power is a premium we highly prize. The current 1500 does a good job and is expected to for awhile; however, should events dictate that these types of vehicles are going away we might invest in a new one to extend the number of years we can maintain our activity.

I wasn't talking about any kind of government support. I was talking about doing our best to buy American-made products when possible/reasonable.

As I get older I tend to lean toward what I think (?) the founders' view points were - smaller & simpler government.

I do think that SOME corporations (manufacturing/financial) have simply grown too large. I don't think the founders ever foresaw a company being so large that its demise could actually damage the U.S. economy.

(Sorry Chris ... this is leaning toward politics ... I'll shut up now)

@Polack:

I really like jeep. I have had three myself, two Cherokees and a 1985 AMC CJ7. Based on some electrical issues I had with the Cherokee Limited, and the upkeep I was constantly doing on the CJ7, I got a bit soured on the brand.

Now however, (last three years or so) I have noticed just how many Cherokee models are still on the road. Even my brother still has his 1998 on the road.

I have been considering a trade in on my Charger to a Cherokee for this reason but they don't make them anymore. I really don't like the new models they have, based on shape.

The secret to keeping a Jeep Cherokee on the road is to get one with minimum accessories added. The inline 6 cyclinder 4.0 liter engine was one of the best things Chrysler ever built, they will run forever with proper maintenance. The problems come when you get the power seats and windows and all the other stuff that people wanted their SUV's to come with. I had a 2wd Cherokee that I bought at auction that just ran and ran and ran, basic model, 4 doors, automatic transmission. I bought a newer 4wd model with all the cool stuff on it from someone who was moving out of the country, had nothing but problems with it, not with the engine, with all the extra stuff that unfortunately killed the resale value of it. Got rid of it much faster then I did the 2wd model.

This is true for most vehicles. The vehicles I've had that are basically stripped work vehicles (i.e. crank windows, manual door locks, manual transmission, RWD, maybe no A/C) are always the ones that have the least amount of problems, or are at least reasonably easy to fix. When they start making things complicated is when things start to fall apart.

The other thing I've noticed is that the first year of production usually produces the least reliable vehicles. I always wait until at least the second year it has been out to buy something.

Not only that, but those manual items are all muc easier to fix and keep the vehicle functioning.

@JohnE-

you are right on the money, my stripped down manual 4 banger Cherokee was much more reliable than my Limited. It was always an electrical issue.