Hi everyone,

I’m about to spring for a ResQFix 460 for my kit. My partner is a professional landscape photographer and I’m her guide (aka schleper). We spend a lot of time out of radio or cell phone range in the Everglades and Bahamas. Over the years we’ve had our share of drama but so far so good.

I first looked at a PLB a couple of years ago and became a firm believer. I waited for more competition to improve design and lower price. Hasn’t happened yet but I’m ready to make the move.

But, if I buy one tomorrow it will almost guarantee that a new version will come out next month. Any word on updates to the ACR product line on the horizon?

Finally, I have looked for specific details on the limitations of the system without much success. For instance:
- what is the SARSAT coverage in south Florida – how often is a satellite within range of the PLB?
- how long does it take for the PLB to acquire a fix
- how does overhead canopy affect GPS reception?
- And lots of other questions . . .

I would appreciate any information anyone would provide or point me to.

There is little doubt that I will own a ResQfFx within a few days. Hopefully, I will never need it but if I do I just want to know its limits.

Thanks!

I can't answer your questions, but I did notice there was a new, smaller PLB released recently. Might be worth looking into since the small/light object is more likely to end up in your pack.

McMurdo Fast Find GPS PLB

-john

I would say hold off buying the ACR if you can for the MicrOfix100 from ACR to be released in the July time period. If you need it sooner then buy of course the ResQFix or preferably the microfix. Another option is to rent one when you are going out and buy the new one when it is released.

ACR Announces Next Generation PLBs

http://www.equipped.org/blog/?p=104

Thanks guys!

I'll definitely hold off buying the ACR.

The McMurdo sure is enticing! I found it online for $284, no sales tax and free shipping. That would work for a couple of months until the new ACR units come out. If I decided to get an ACR the McMurdo could either be a backup or better yet given to a friend who is equipped challenged.

I do not have a lot of experence with PLB's but have some with ELT's. SARSAT usally comes over about every 40 minutes. With the older ELT's AFRCC would wait for three passes before SAR was called, this will be different for the new ELT's and PLB's. I think the procedure that I read said the the contact number would be called after the first "hit". If you get a PLB make sure it has a GPS built in, I think they all do. Of course like any electronic equipment do not rely on only it because of you do Murphy will make sure it does not work.

A lot of your questions can be answered via

Doug Ritter's PLB FAQ: http://www.equipped.org/faq_plb/default.asp

and his "How PLB's work page": http://www.equipped.org/406_beacon_test_background.htm#How

The coverage in Florida is as good as anywhere.

The GEO satellites orbit around the Earth's equator and will provide a very quick response to a PLB beacon - within 3-5 minutes. That will tell the system that you are in trouble, but won't tell them where you are.

Your location is determined - and transmitted to the GEO satellites - by one of two systems:

1. GPS location - a GPS fix gives you a location accuracy within 100 meters, but they rely heavily on a clear view to the sky - especially older GPS chip sets - I have not heard whether newer PLB's use the new high-sensitivity chip sets. If you turn on the PLB with onboard GPS, do everything you can to provide a clear view to the sky including as much of the horizon as you can. In Doug's testing a GPS fix can take anywhere from 1-16 minutes.

2. Doppler location - a Doppler-shift location is determined independent of a GPS using LEO satellites, and provides roughly a 2.5 Km (1.5 mile) location accuracy within 1.5 hours. The delay is less as you move away from the Equator - Doug says the maximum delay in the continental U.S. is about one hour.

The other things to keep in mind:

1. Rescue won't come immediately. It takes some time for them to confirm the validity of the beacon and to launch the rescue. Be prepared to wait for rescue to arrive.

2. At least from what I've read - not all SAR have the capability to take advantage of the 121.5 MHz homing beacon. YOUR job once you've initiated the PLB's signal is to be as "findable" as possible. A while back there was the story of a climber who had to use his PLB for rescue while perched on the side of a mountain. He watched in frustration as rescue teams looked for him off in the distance, but couldn't get their attention - somehow they had the incorrectly estimated his location. Eventually he was able to get their attention. I'm trying to remember how - maybe by waving a space blanket??

3. Don't be surprised if you are charged for the cost of rescue. But then again, what is your life worth?

Don't wait too long to buy one. As you say, a better one will come along next month. Its the same way with cell phones and digital cameras. It used to be that way with GPS's, but I'm not so sure anymore ... they have yet to improve on my wonderful Garmin GPSMAP 60CSx. They've added new models with attractive features but have yet to make a better GPS.

Again, thanks to y'all for the information and DR for the website.

I did try to search for the info I knew was here but apparently was too clumsy to find it on my own. I have read over the links and most of the initial questions have been answered. I will go back and study more. Good stuff as usual.

I did order the McMurdo FastFind 210 PLB today. We have a trip to the Bahamian Out Islands next week and will be in some very remote locations. This device will provide some margin of comfort although I won't expect to see a chopper anytime soon if needed.

We spend a great deal of time deep in the Everglades on foot, by boat or buggy. Most of the time comms is nonexistent. The hazards are many. While I care for my own safety, my primary concern is for Angie.

When on a photo shoot she is all about the view through the camera, complete condition white while I am condition orange. I train her to use the survival equipment as much as possible but her attention is on her photo equipment [considerable] and the shot. She trusts me to get her in and out.

If she goes down we still have options. If I go down she is in serious trouble. I don't want her to have to make the decision to stay or leave for help. Even if I'm dead, I don't want her to try to come out on her own. Time to call in SAR.

While the McMurdo unit says it has 10 self tests available, it can't actually send a test to a SafeLife satellite, or any other, until the antenna is deployed. Bummer. Still, as you say, it's better to have than nothing. For the price I'm pleased.

I fully expect to buy the ACR product that allows 100 full satellite tests when it's available. If I understand the concept, testing will allow us to see how well the GPS acquisition works in the different environments we see as well as train Angie on its use. I don't believe in learning under stress.

Sorry for the 'discussion' but it helps me bounce important decisions like this in a forum I trust.

I am confused about one thing:
KenK >>> The GEO satellites orbit around the Earth's equator and will provide a very quick response to a PLB beacon - within 3-5 minutes. That will tell the system that you are in trouble, but won't tell them where you are. <<<

I thought the GEO satellites would receive your GPS location (if available). If location data was not available then it would be eventually determined by Doppler from the LEO system.

Please correct me where I am misunderstanding/dreaming/stupid.

I think he is referring to the idea there are GPS and non-GPS based PLBs. For those with non-GPS equipped device, or if the GPS can't get a fix, it uses the method described.

GPS may not always be able to get a fix due to tree cover or other location issues.

We'll need pics when you get it! And now you can't tell us you don't have access to a camera! ;-)

-john

I have an ACR MicroFix, and I have no complaints. It has passed every self test , but thank God I have never really needed it....

As stated before, my next big back country purchase will be a PLB. I have waited long enough and will most likely read through the reviews on the new models coming out this summer from ACR. I have been set on a MicroFix for a while and while the new models may have less weight by at most a half pound, I don't know if the bells and whistles will overwhelm me past what could possibly be a great price reduction on the original and so far well received model.

From what I've read as soon as the PLB is activated it begins sending out a signal that can be heard by both the GEO and LEO satellite. Since the GEO satellites are always in view, they receive the signal almost immediately without any location information. Until a GPS fix or Doppler location is available, that signal is being sent without any location information.

SARSAT's web site http://www.sarsat.noaa.gov/ says that even without a location, the initial alert gives them time to verify the alert by calling the telephone numbers given when the PLB was registered.

If the PLB has an onboard GPS it will take 1 to 16 minutes for the GPS to be able to provide a GPS location (assuming it can get a fix). Some PLB's let them obtain a GPS location from an external GPS. Once that location is available it is sent along with the PLB signal.

I always assumed that the Doppler location is something calculated by the 'system' using data from the LEO satellites. I wouldn't think that the PLB does those calculations, since it is not a receiver. At some point after the initial PLB signal is initiated that Doppler location information is provided to the Mission Control Center.

BUT I'm not an expert in all of this. I'm sure Doug can tell you exactly how it works.

I'm not sure how much time you spend out in the landscape, so I don't know if a satellite phone rental would be more cost effective. My wife and I camp in Death Valley on the occasional Thanksgiving, and we rent a satellite phone for the week we'll be out there.

Overhead canopy definitely affects reception, but that's not a problem for us in Death Valley. You'd have to know how far an opening is that the phone can see a satellite through.

We take local numbers for hospitals, ambulance, and tow trucks, as well as our Triple-A number. The nice thing about a sat phone is that you know you've gotten through and talked to someone who can help, they can stay on the line and give instructions, if need be, etc.

If you do a search for satellite phone on Google, you'll get lots of rental places, as well as places that sell them. GlobalStar has a system that appears to be failing as a result of radiation damage to the satellites. Iridium is still working. Both systems cover the US and the Caribbean.

Rentals vary all over the place in prices. Some include free shipping, some charge exorbitant amounts going and coming, but cheap rent. I always run the numbers for all the charges to see which is least expensive overall.

If you have a chance, try a rental your next landscape trip and see how it works for you, especially if you're going to be under the canopy. I'm a very happy camper in the boonies with a sat phone. Like you we haven't needed it for real emergencies, but we've helped fellow campers who've broken down and we've gotten weather reports for the Sierra Nevadas to check whether we want to come back via Reno or Barstow. Sat phones come in handy even when it's not life or death.

To KenK: I think I have a fairly good grasp on the system now thanks to you and the others here as well as studying the links provided. Thanks to all.

I am happy to report that I received the McMurdo 210 today from www.marine-electronics-unlimited.com. Free 48 hour shipping is pretty amazing.

The unit is about 1/3 the size of the MicroFix; weight difference in negligible to me. Cost is about 40%. I have read of the poor test results from Doug’s testing in 2004 but have seen no problems reported with the newer models.

The 210 allows 12 internal self tests per year and a total of 10 GPS acquisition fix tests over the five year battery life. Since the antenna can’t be deployed for testing, a ‘full circle’ test can’t be performed. Still, given the form factor and price I will receive full value until the ResQFix 100 becomes available.

I want to develop a test protocol to learn the GPS acquisition of the ACR unit in the real life conditions we encounter in the Glades. The dry season (November-May) is not so bad; the cypress loose their leaves and the prairies are mostly dry. During the wet season the cypress are in full foliage and will be a problem even in the prairies. I will need to develop techniques/tools to get the PLB into position to see the sky. The boat BlackFly offers a different set of challenges with the mangroves.

Will be a fun project while Angie is working with her gear.

Thanks to all for helping me get this gear in my kit..

Hey Phillip,

Thanks for the tip on the sat phone; I’ll definitely look into it.

Rental won’t work as we are weather driven and seldom know which direction we’re going until we see the morning sky. But it sure would be nice to always have voice capability. Not sure if ownership of a totally waterproof unit would be cost effective, but definitely worth looking into.

Thanks!

First, CONGRATULATIONS on a great new toy. Its too bad you can't "play" with it more, eh?? My family bought ours because we thought it to be a relatively small price to pay for the safety it brought us when heading out into less traveled areas.

From looking at the Fast Find manual on-line, it looks like you should be able to get a good test of the GPS right though the yellow cover. The GPS antenna is underneath the "GPS Zone" label shown in the manual, and being plastic the yellow cover shouldn't really interfere with the GPS signal.

One note - the McMurdo FastFind manual is so much nicer than the manual that came with my ACR TerraFix. I would have thought ACR could have spent a little more money on providing a good manual with photos and at least better diagrams.

I would REALLY like to know if the GPS chip set in the FastFind is one of the older ones or one of the newer high-sensitivity ones. I can't find any info on that in either Doug's write-up or on McMurdo's web site. I would hope it is a newer one since they can obtain GPS fixes under amazingly poor conditions (fairly often my Garmin GPSMAP 60CSx can get a fix from the center of the first floor of my house - amazing.

Bit tied up with Knife Rights right now, We have done some preliminary testing of the GPS in the new Fast Find last week and I'll have results to post next week or so. It is a new multi-channel chip.

Here’s an update since testing my new McMurdo Fast Find PLB:

I took the unit over to my friend’s house to show it off. He was impressed. I wanted to do a self test and a GPS test with him watching to verify I did everything right as well as observe the results.

We took the device to his dock behind the house for the test. The house obstructed the sky at about a 45 degree angle to the west while the rest of the view was obstructed to about 20 degrees.

We also had a Garmin GPS-12 (older chip set) to turn on simultaneously to see where the birds were and compare acquisition times.

The self test was simple with a pass. We did not realize at first that the GPS test had to concurrent with the self test so we had to restart from the beginning. The second self test passed as well and I put the unit in GPS test mode while he turned on the Garmin. We watched the Garmin find then acquire the first three birds in about a minute. A few seconds later the Fast Find signaled that it had acquired a GPS fix.

I am very pleased with the results. Of course, this is just a couple of guys fooling around in the back yard, not a scientific test or adverse conditions. I’m anxious to see the results of Doug’s testing.