#172148 - 04/27/09 03:41 PM
Wow, That Brought Back (Bad) Memories
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Enthusiast
Registered: 07/19/07
Posts: 266
Loc: New York
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On September 11, 2001, I was in the World Trade Center (luckily, on the ground floor, but not yet in the elevator lobby). People I know (and some regrettably, who I knew) were not so lucky as to their locations. This morning, I looked out my office window from the 11th floor, overlooking NY Harbor, and saw what appeared to be a 747 flying VERY low. Trailed by an F-16. Heading right at my window. My initial thoughts on seeing this are not printable on this board. Apparently, I'm not the only one who got freaked out. My Step-mother's office building was evacuated, along with a number of others around lower Manhattan: Wall Street Journal New York Times What were they thinking!!! OK, to make it constructive, I did get a chance to mentally go through my coningency plans for another major event here in Manhattan, and realized that I need to stash a comfortable set of shoes at my desk. My current wingtips were not good for the sprint down the stairs, and would be worse for a long walk home.
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#172155 - 04/27/09 04:08 PM
Re: Wow, That Brought Back (Bad) Memories
[Re: Jesselp]
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Pooh-Bah
Registered: 09/15/05
Posts: 2485
Loc: California
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Heading right at my window. Yeah, that would've rattled me, too. Big plane. Bad memories.
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#172159 - 04/27/09 04:40 PM
Re: Wow, That Brought Back (Bad) Memories
[Re: Jesselp]
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Pooh-Bah
Registered: 01/21/03
Posts: 2205
Loc: Bucks County PA
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Yeah I saw that too. What a scare. I was coming in (late) to work - saw it from the NJ turnpike.
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#172167 - 04/27/09 05:33 PM
Re: Wow, That Brought Back (Bad) Memories
[Re: Since2003]
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Addict
Registered: 04/04/07
Posts: 612
Loc: SE PA
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That would have really have rattled me...
_________________________
"I reject your reality and substitute my own..." - Adam Savage / Mythbusters
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#172178 - 04/27/09 06:33 PM
Re: Wow, That Brought Back (Bad) Memories
[Re: ]
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Pooh-Bah
Registered: 01/21/03
Posts: 2205
Loc: Bucks County PA
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nah. we see them all the time. just not flying with an F16 on their tail and making all kinds of wacky moves.
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#172182 - 04/27/09 06:37 PM
Re: Wow, That Brought Back (Bad) Memories
[Re: Jesselp]
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INTERCEPTOR
Carpal Tunnel
Registered: 07/15/02
Posts: 3760
Loc: TX
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#172212 - 04/27/09 09:40 PM
Re: Wow, That Brought Back (Bad) Memories
[Re: Jesselp]
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Cranky Geek
Carpal Tunnel
Registered: 09/08/05
Posts: 4642
Loc: Vermont
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What were they thinking!!! They weren't. Idiots.
_________________________
-IronRaven
When a man dare not speak without malice for fear of giving insult, that is when truth starts to die. Truth is the truest freedom.
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#172233 - 04/28/09 12:15 AM
Re: Wow, That Brought Back (Bad) Memories
[Re: ironraven]
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Addict
Registered: 03/20/05
Posts: 410
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That was perhaps the dumbest thing I've seen since 9/11. I'll never forget going to work, pulling up slashdot, and reading about it. Then calling my wife at home - turn on the news...
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#172239 - 04/28/09 12:40 AM
Re: Wow, That Brought Back (Bad) Memories
[Re: ironraven]
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Pooh-Bah
Registered: 09/01/07
Posts: 2432
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Good thing your a prepared sort of guy. Who keeps a spare set of underwear in your kit. LOL.
According to a report on ABC evening news it was part of photography event staged by a government PR guy. They reported the man responsible was dragged into the wood shed and given a tongue lashing by the big guy himself.
Sounds to me like someone didn't think that through.
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#172262 - 04/28/09 12:50 PM
Re: Wow, That Brought Back (Bad) Memories
[Re: Art_in_FL]
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Geezer
Registered: 06/02/06
Posts: 5359
Loc: SOCAL
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FAA knew and apparently did their job informing NYPD and others. Mayor Bloomberg's underling, the director of operations for the Office of Citywide Event Coordination and Management got the word but didn't tell the mayor -- oops.
_________________________
Better is the Enemy of Good Enough.
Okay, what’s your point??
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#172307 - 04/28/09 08:46 PM
Re: Wow, That Brought Back (Bad) Memories
[Re: Russ]
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Pooh-Bah
Registered: 09/01/07
Posts: 2432
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One might think that "Mayor Bloomberg's underling" might have offered a an opinion that flying an airliner and F-16 at near rooftop level over NYC might not be a prudent and crowd-pleasing action. Given the history. Apparently the "underling" only answers the phone and takes messages. Apparently not very effectively. Oh well, if this is as bad as it gets we can all laugh. On the positive side the NYC emergency call center got a workout. Good practice. An unscheduled practice run. Helps keep everyone on their toes.
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#172328 - 04/28/09 10:58 PM
Re: Wow, That Brought Back (Bad) Memories
[Re: Art_in_FL]
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Cranky Geek
Carpal Tunnel
Registered: 09/08/05
Posts: 4642
Loc: Vermont
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that flying an airliner and F-16 at near rooftop level ANYWHERE might not be a prudent There, fixed it. I don't care where you are. Jumbos flying low spook most people these days unless they are an approach. With fighter escort, no matter where, it is going to make people nervous.
_________________________
-IronRaven
When a man dare not speak without malice for fear of giving insult, that is when truth starts to die. Truth is the truest freedom.
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#172529 - 05/01/09 12:27 AM
Re: Wow, That Brought Back (Bad) Memories
[Re: Art_in_FL]
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Addict
Registered: 03/20/05
Posts: 410
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They reported the man responsible was dragged into the wood shed and given a tongue lashing by the big guy himself.
Sounds to me like someone didn't think that through.
I wouldn't be surprised if the big guy knew about this all along and is doing a serious case of CYA. How could anyone be dumb enough to think this is a good idea is beyond me...
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#172536 - 05/01/09 04:15 AM
Re: Wow, That Brought Back (Bad) Memories
[Re: sodak]
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Veteran
Registered: 03/31/06
Posts: 1355
Loc: United Kingdom.
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If that had been for real- pray for the poor sod in the F-14.
The only way to guarantee stopping the airliner is ramming. At full afterburner.
Question is: If your the pilot of the F-14 would you choose to eject just before impact?
_________________________
I don't do dumb & helpless.
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#172543 - 05/01/09 01:06 PM
Re: Wow, That Brought Back (Bad) Memories
[Re: Leigh_Ratcliffe]
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Rapscallion
Carpal Tunnel
Registered: 02/06/04
Posts: 4020
Loc: Anchorage AK
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Of course not. You stay with the plane until the mission is achieved or you are unable to complete the mission. Them's the rules.
Fanatical muslims aren't the only ones willing to die for a cause. There are many I am sure that would gladly put foot to a$$ for our country.
_________________________
The ultimate result of shielding men from the effects of folly is to fill the world with fools.
-- Herbert Spencer, English Philosopher (1820-1903)
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#172557 - 05/01/09 05:32 PM
Re: Wow, That Brought Back (Bad) Memories
[Re: benjammin]
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Veteran
Registered: 03/31/06
Posts: 1355
Loc: United Kingdom.
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When I looked at the footage it was apparent that the F-14 was too close for a missile shot (arming distance) and cannon fire wouldn't deliver enough stopping power fast enough.
So what I was getting at was: Would you choose to live with knowing that you have just killed something like 200 people?
And you have no realistic chance of a pilot obeying an order to ram. That would be tantamount to an order to commit suicide.
He might choose to be that heroic, but no one could realistically blame him for refusing. This is not Nazi Germany after all.
Having said that, hard hit pilots on both sides in WW2 rammed. But they knew that their wounds were mortal anyway.
_________________________
I don't do dumb & helpless.
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#172566 - 05/01/09 09:20 PM
Re: Wow, That Brought Back (Bad) Memories
[Re: Leigh_Ratcliffe]
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Pooh-Bah
Registered: 09/01/07
Posts: 2432
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[ If that had been for real- pray for the poor sod in the F-14.
The only way to guarantee stopping the airliner is ramming. At full afterburner.
An armed F-16 should have no problem at all shooting down an airliner as long as they get there early enough. A single missile might not do it but several are pretty much a sure thing and any pilot worth his salt can hit it with 20mm fire. Airliners just aren't that maneuverable and they aren't designed to take damage. Even a controlled destruction of the engines with gunfire isn't out of the question. Those engines are huge and just one round would do it. Airforce-one has much more chance of surviving damage, mostly through system redundancy, safeing and countermeasures to make it more difficult for a missile to lock on, but it can't fly without engines. But any such action has to be undertaken long before the airliner is over a city. Once over a major city the benefits of shooting an airliner down largely disappear. The exception being if there is some singular high-value target. Even in that case your not going to ram the airliner. Two airplanes falling randomly into a city is not any better than just one.
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#172569 - 05/01/09 09:48 PM
Re: Wow, That Brought Back (Bad) Memories
[Re: Leigh_Ratcliffe]
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Addict
Registered: 03/20/05
Posts: 410
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And you have no realistic chance of a pilot obeying an order to ram. That would be tantamount to an order to commit suicide.
He might choose to be that heroic, but no one could realistically blame him for refusing. This is not Nazi Germany after all. No, it's not suicide if you are saving lives for a greater good. It's sacrifice. It has a purpose. You might be surprised to find out how many of our fine military men and women are willing to give their lives for their country. God bless them all.
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#172575 - 05/02/09 01:06 AM
Re: Wow, That Brought Back (Bad) Memories
[Re: sodak]
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Veteran
Registered: 09/01/05
Posts: 1474
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And you have no realistic chance of a pilot obeying an order to ram. That would be tantamount to an order to commit suicide.
He might choose to be that heroic, but no one could realistically blame him for refusing. This is not Nazi Germany after all. No, it's not suicide if you are saving lives for a greater good. It's sacrifice. It has a purpose. You might be surprised to find out how many of our fine military men and women are willing to give their lives for their country. God bless them all. Thats actually a very utilitarian philosophy which if applied on a society wide scale would have very interesting consequeces. I'm just bringing up the point that when you're talking about something as large and complex as a country, moral absolutes and questions of sacrifice for the greater good are inherently complex issues.
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#172577 - 05/02/09 02:28 AM
Re: Wow, That Brought Back (Bad) Memories
[Re: LED]
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Addict
Registered: 05/06/04
Posts: 604
Loc: Manhattan
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Something I noticed in this, is that people really reacted to it this time. There were a lot of descriptions of people standing around and not evacuating or returning to work during 9/11. People immediately and spontaneously started evacuating buildings during this scare. I wonder if there is a larger impact on peoples' response to fire alarms and other types of emergency warnings.
_________________________
A gentleman should always be able to break his fast in the manner of a gentleman where so ever he may find himself.--Good Omens
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#172584 - 05/02/09 07:33 AM
Re: Wow, That Brought Back (Bad) Memories
[Re: Art_in_FL]
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Veteran
Registered: 03/31/06
Posts: 1355
Loc: United Kingdom.
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[ If that had been for real- pray for the poor sod in the F-14.
The only way to guarantee stopping the airliner is ramming. At full afterburner.
An armed F-16 should have no problem at all shooting down an airliner as long as they get there early enough. A single missile might not do it but several are pretty much a sure thing and any pilot worth his salt can hit it with 20mm fire. Airliners just aren't that maneuverable and they aren't designed to take damage. Even a controlled destruction of the engines with gunfire isn't out of the question. Those engines are huge and just one round would do it. Airforce-one has much more chance of surviving damage, mostly through system redundancy, safeing and countermeasures to make it more difficult for a missile to lock on, but it can't fly without engines. But any such action has to be undertaken long before the airliner is over a city. Once over a major city the benefits of shooting an airliner down largely disappear. The exception being if there is some singular high-value target. Even in that case your not going to ram the airliner. Two airplanes falling randomly into a city is not any better than just one. Aircraft? What aircraft?
_________________________
I don't do dumb & helpless.
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