I could not believe what I was reading today and that this can still happen, what the hell were they thinking , I expected a lot more from our emergency services than this pathetic effort, That PLB is looking better now. Read on....

The last people David Iredale spoke to before he died alone in the NSW Blue Mountains were emergency operators who were sarcastic and showed no empathy, a Sydney inquest has heard.

Emergency operators were 'sarcastic'

If true, that's pretty horrible indeed.

On the other hand, emergency operators are people like everyone else. It's not exactly the most attractive or lucrative job. I assume it's not that pleasant either, especially if you're overburdened with phone calls, many of which turn out to be pranks or plain dumb.

It's amazing how often emergency responders get called for something that is supposedly a real emergency only to find out it's just a matter of a little old lady dropping her keys into the sewer or having her cat run up a tree. Things like that get old really fast and tie up resources so people in a genuine emergency might not get help in time.

I suppose when making an emergency call it's critically important to be able to speak clearly despite the adrenaline rush, as bad as the situation might be. I know it's hard, I've been in the same situation before. But you really have to calm down and let the emergency responders know what exactly is going on. Also, being able to give your location is a major factor. Asking for a street number when you're out in the bush is of course ridiculous. But on the other hand, you have to do better than just telling the operator you're stranded out in the middle of nowhere.

Anyway, I wouldn't make any hasty judgement in this case but it sounds like the unfortunate young man panicked. The bottom line is, anyone going out into the wilderness is for the most part responsible for their own safety. Even with a PLB and cellphone you can't trust them with your life. There's no guarantee you'll be able to call assistance if something goes wrong. If that's too much for you to handle then you really have no business going out on your own IMHO.

Which is part of the job. If you're working as a 911 operator and you can't handle the basic requirements of your job -- which includes dealing with people who are upset or panicky -- and you feel that your job is insufficiently attractive and lucrative, then you need to grow up, stop whining, and find another job.

If, on the other hand, you intend to continue collecting your paycheque, you need to suck it up and do the job you're paid to do.

Normally I am pretty accepting of the human failings we all have, but in this case I have to agree with Andrew.

If you lack the skills and demeanor to be a good McDonald's cashier, someone gets the wrong hamburger.

If you lack the skills and demeanor to be a good 911 operator, someone dies.

There has to be a higher standard here.

I couldn't agree more. I respect everyone's job from the smallest to the largest. All I ask is that you perform your job as expected. If I order a hamburger from a fast food place, I expect to be greeted in a positive tone and to get my food in a reasonable amount of time.

If I call 911, I expect them to treat my call as an emergency. If it is later deemed to not be an emergency than so be it, but that shouldn't be determined by the operator.

Reminds me of a story when I was doing some acting in college. The director told me the story of being in a small, insignifact role in a play. He was something like spear carrier #3. He said that he was determined to be the best spear carrier #3 he could be. It is that attitude that stuck with me till today. If you do something, do it and try to do it to the best of your ability, otherwise, don't even bother.

You know, you're all right and I totally agree with what you're saying. But the point is, everybody makes mistakes, everybody has a bad day now and then. Even cops, firefighters, 911 operators.

A boy died but no amount of finger pointing will bring him back to life. If the emergency operators really did screw up, I suppose they'll lose their job, get sued, maybe worse. Still, what's done is done.

And at any rate, not knowing the full story I would be EXTREMELY hesitant before pointing a finger at anyone involved. Most emergency responders I've ever had to deal with turned out to be very dedicated and professional individuals.

As far as the particular incident, has it not caught anybody's attention that there are several odd things about the whole story? The boy got separated from his two buddies but when he called, he was already out of water and "unable to walk"? There is no explanation as to what his buddies did in the meantime nor what actually happened. Hard to say anything not knowing the details

It's easy to blame the emergency operators for not doing their job right. However, it could well have been a matter of inexperienced hikers biting off more than they could chew. It happens all the time. Personal responsibility is a rare trait these days. Once out in the bush, you can't just expect to be rescued by the push of a button.

PPPPPP.

But to repeatedly ask for his address after being told that he was lost in the bush? In my book, that's inexcusable.

The real issue here is not whether people make mistakes. It's whether the training and procedures were adequate, which apparently they were not.

I have to agree with that. Also, I'm not familiar with the situation in the US, but in mine country the majority of the calls are pranks and misuse of the emergency number. So sifting out the real once can be challenging.

This happened in 2006 and apparently they still have not worked out an acceptable protocol for their operators to use when callers are somewhere off the beaten path, even when this same call center--the same operators, apparently--faced a similar incident a year after this first kid died with another lost person.

No one has mentioned it, but three different operators took a number of calls from this poor kid and their own superintendent admits that they all "lacked empathy" to this kid's situation. So, it's not just one operator having a bad day on one call.

And, the apparent lack of empathy. Although, without any of us hearing the call, this is conjecture. Still, if that is true, there should be repercussions. Ultimately, the operator failed at his/her job. Their job is to gather information & provide assistance-clearly, they did neither.

I read the article and I see a problem with the article, the supervision and the system.
Everybody, even in the comments, are either blaming or defending the operators.

The thing is the Supt who is saying his operators were sarcastic is the one who is supposed to be responsible for their behavior.
This sounds like another case where somebody is enjoying the perks of their position of authority without facing the obligations of responsibility.
The supervisors in this case all need to be taken to the town square and publicly flogged, with the initial of their sin branded into their foreheads after their public flogging.

So, what do we as a community take from this?

It is always easy to 'monday morning quarterback'

and find fault.

A public figure dies from a gunshot wound and his family become

gun control advocates. A movie star's child contracts a

rare 'orphan disease' and they become spokespersons.

How many here are active in orienteering? Think maybe a 17 y/o

with even the rudiments of that activity would get lost?

We offer Driver's Ed in school, say no to drugs and countless

programmes to give the next generation a fighting chance on our

streets. But 'where the sidewalk ends' seems to be society's

boundary of responsibility too.

I spent the day teaching an update course for 911 dispatchers in California. Part of the course discusses PLB's, Tracme, and SPoT (and the advantages and disadvantages). And I recommend this site (among others) to them for further info.

For those who do not know, most 911 dispatchers in California are working 60-80 hour work weeks, because public safety agencies are not able to find or attract qualified employees for that job. If you would like to see the job up close, most agencies will let you "sit-in" the 911 center for a couple of hours to observe.

I would never be able to do that kind of job. I just don't have the patience and people skills to do it. Heck, I don't think I could even do a full week of answering calls. I do admire the people who are SUITED to work at 9-1-1 centres for their tireless efforts. The world needs people like them.

That was basically my point. The problem with our society is that people don't take responsibility for their actions. Anyone that ventures out into the wild does so at their own risk. You can't just fool around in the bush expecting to call 911 and get rescued the moment anything goes wrong. And at 17, I think a person ought to be mature enough to understand the risk. So we're back to PPPPPP.

What can we do? I'm no survival expert by any means but I've tried to share what I know with my friends and hiking buddies. I've recommended this website often in the past and introduced a fair number of people to good survival documentaries like Ray Mears and Les Stroud. I have no problem borrowing any book from my fairly sizeable survival library to people I trust. Heck, I might write my own book one day, aimed exactly at the general public/a.k.a. city folks.

But at the end of the day, preparation is still down to the individual. The problem is, some people see the outdoors as a playground where they can get away from the society and do whatever they want. Even if it means getting drunk, running around the woods stoned out of their mind, playing Rambo or attempting to climb a major mountain peek in the toughest winter wearing light hiking shoes and a pair of jeans. Until people sober up, accidents will happen - accidents that could easily be avoided with just a little common sense.

Just for the hell of it I asked my youngest son 13 of age this question: Your friend rang you and told you he was lost in the bush, what do you do to help him? god bless him he responded with

1. What was your last known position
2. How long have you been traveling for
3. Are you hurt
4. Did not ask for a street address

This is from a 13 yr old who has some camping experiance and I did not tell him about this artical, now we get an idea approx where start looking.

This is realy common sence stuff that I would expect these people to ask dont you think???

Look I agree Tom L there is no way in hell I would venture out without being prepared and I do.

And yes people do the wrong thing and get into trouble but this poor bloke had a mobile and managed
to contacted the emergency services but was ultimately let down by their lack of training.

Are we going to adopt the attitude oh well you didn't prepare so more fool you and you deserve what you get!!!

Its common sense to us because we know how the outdoors works. I would assume a lot of people constantly reference by street only. Additionally when you're always working with that mindset I doubt it'd be easy to change the way you've always done business while also dealing with reports that use your standard system. Really the training is at fault, and that comes down to the people above them. Your son was likely trained in how to determine someone's location in the bush by listening to you or someone else at some point.

The lack of empathy and failure to obtain help with the problem is unacceptable IMO. If they can't figure out how to save the guy it should start moving towards someone who can figure it out.

The dispatchers likely have a question sheet on the computer screen in front of them and the street address box on it has to be filled in, or the police dispatcher asks for it or some other bureaucratic reason exists in their minds.
Common sense should tell you how stupid it is to ask for an exact location from somebody who just told you they are lost.
If the kid knew where he was he would not be lost.(right?)
Tony B's son had the first question right. What is your last known location give a start, "About where do you think you are?" could work too.

But again, I think it is wrong to be trying to blame the operators. It was not just one person ignoring procedures that did this. Responsibility has to be with the people who actually had authority over the dispatchers.
To blame the 911 dispatchers instead of the 911 commissioners is like trying to blame the office receptionists for the collapse of AIG's banking business.

Well, certainly, the kid was in a bad situation. However, I dont think the responsibility lies with him, at all. Like it or not, most people are NOT responsible for themselves. Hence, we have systems like 911. This instance illustrates a total lack of empathy one the operators' part. I think there should be repercussions for everyone on that shift. Supervisors on down. It is simply unacceptable.
And, I apologize,but having a bad day simply doesnt wash with me. So, you didnt get your coffee the way you wanted, or got stuck in traffic, and, because of that, you are, essentially, a jerk, to someone in need of help? And the end result is he dies, becuase you're having a bad day? Good luck with that one in court.
Lack of empathy on the the operators' part, lack of understanding on the operators' part, and the lack of supervision are to blame for this situation. The lost kid, well, 911 is there for emergencies. This was an emergency. If you arent willing to treat EVERY SINGLE CALL that way, then you have no right being there. Sure, they get prank calls, or useless calls. But, remember this; they arent on the scene, nor are they going through the emotions that the caller may be. They are answering phones, and sending the authorities. This dispatch center, at least to me, made a judgement call they had no right to make; that is, to treat the call as a prank. And, for that, someone died. If these people are still employed, that is truly shameful. If I were a family member, I would be suing the department in question for wrongful death. There was no need for this to happen. Period.
And, true, they likely have a form to fill out on their screen. I have seen some of the software that 911 uses, so I have a passing familiarity with it. However, if something comes up that an operator cannot deal with, it should be escalated to a supervisor. When the kid said he was lost in the woods, and the operator kept asking for an address....the sup should've stepped in right there. Then, we likely wouldnt be having this discussion. But, the operator was argumentative (again, speculation based on the article), and the only thing that happened was a kid died. Failure of the system; NOT failure on the kids part to "be prepared". After all, I am sure alot, if not most (even all?) of us here have gotten ourselves into dire straights, but have come out OK, to some degree. Blaming the child for failing to be prepared isnt the issue here. The issue is the failure of the 911 center.

Oldsoldier, I would agree with you totally about the fault of the operator, given the premise of the story as related to us. They did not do their job, and they are negligent in their duty, as well as most likely their supervisor would be. Based on the information provided to date, I find their actions reprehensible, and would argue that they deserve the full brunt of whatever the law allows as penitence.

However, I vehemently disagree with the exoneration of the kid. It was his actions directly that put his life in peril, and regardless of whatever came afterwards by others, he alone bears the fullest measure of fault for his demise. His culpability cannot be in question, nor can it be mitigated by the negligence of others, for his negligence is the primary cause, and his negligence fomented the entire calamity. His friends surely share in the blame as well, as I would suspect his parents ought to. By his own actions, he placed himself in the bad situation. No one else put him there, he did it of his own accord and under no duress, and if all other factors are reduced from this event, it still comes down to his choice of doing what he did that generates the cause.

That does not excuse the actions of any/everyone else involved in this tragedy. Likewise he cannot be any less culpable because of the failings of others. There is no indication in this story that the young man was in any way physically or mentally impaired, and he was of suitable age to at least have been able to reason on his own enough to realize the risks he was taking.

I would point a finger at everyone else involved because they survived, and because it brings to public attention the need for corrective action. However, wagging the finger itself is not enough.

Isn't the death penalty enough for the kid involved? He made some mistakes, paid a pretty damned high price for them. The dispatchers made some mistakes, they're not paying any price yet...

Who has the higher standard of practice here, the 17 year old kid or the professionally trained dispatchers?

Ironically, there was an episode of Law and Order on last night in which the bad guy was ultimately brought down not for his actions but for his inactions. The character in this case was an RN, they're held to a higher standard, as are dispatchers, EMT's, Paramedics, Doctors, Veterinarians, etc.

All the finger pointing at the victim notwithstanding, all he did was get lost, the dispatchers apparently consciously failed at doing their job.

JohnE

"All the finger pointing at the victim notwithstanding, all he did was get lost, the dispatchers apparently consciously failed at doing their job."

I disagree, he did a number of things, up to and including perish, all of which began and ended with him and his actions. The actions/inactions of the rest compounded the errors he made, but it was his actions that instigated the event, and had he taken a different course of action from the start, none of what the others did/didn't do would've had any affect on the alternate outcome.

Also, it is incorrect to refer to him as a victim, the proper term would be perpetrator. The point isn't to punish him, but to make a point that the first person any of us should look to for the surety of our own welfare is ourselves. If we don't maintain adequate vigilence for our own preservation, we shouldn't have any expecation that others necessarily will. If we do our part, we should never have need of any outside assistance, save for some very unique and very rare situations.

I too find the actions of the operators absolutely unforgivable, but I'd like to point out something that really hasn't been mentioned. The fact that the young man accepted how he was being treated, as far as we can tell from the information given.
I work in a very dynamic industry where I deal with people face to face constantly, sometimes under not too pleasant situations. However, I'm always courteous and go out of my way to help people. However, when I'm dealing with someone over the phone and they don't give me the service I expect, I always talk to a supervisor, and if need be, THEIR supervisor. There is always someone higher on the food chain. I don't want to sound harsh or unsympathetic, believe me I would not wish that on anyone. But somehow we forget how to keep asking for what we want until we get it. My 5 year old son asks me 20 times a minute if he can have or do something, and if he doesn't get the answer he wants, he keeps asking.
I too am of the mindset that we should always be prepared when venturing out, overprepared should be more like it.
When I went down the Green River in Utah for ten days with my best friend, we were overprepared. We had too much food, water, medical gear, shelter, clothing, etc. But that trip, and another like it two years later, taught me how to be overprepared with less. Ask yourself...what's the worst that can happen, then prepare for that. What's the best that can happen, and prepare for that. Either way, your covered.
If I did my job as badly as these dispatchers did theirs, I'm sure I'd be brought up on charges of negligence, endangerment, and a myriad of others that I can't even fathom.
This is just another reason to carry a PLB, SPOT, or similar device.

I'm simply floored...

So now the people getting lost and calling for help are perpetrators?

What crime are they committing or furthering?

Never mind, I don't want to continue this nonsense any further.

JohnE

Absolutely. Just based on what's in the story, we know that their procedures and training were poor, which is the responsibility of their managers. Their front-line supervision appears also to have been poor, which is the responsibility of their supervisors.

But how would you handle a blind caller who was unsure of his street address? Or a driver who was lost at the time of the incident he called about? Each operator's robotic inability to respond with something as simple as, "What was your last known location?" is surprising.

This is basic stuff. Regardless of training and procedures, you have to wonder what their thought process was.

The poor sucker was actually apologizing to the phone answerer that sentenced him to death. Kind of sad really.

Benjamin, most of us have read Ayn Rand, the bisexual Russian Princess, who along with Heinlein was one of the most popular presenters of your purely self interested greed based moral philosophy.
Try to keep in mind that no society that adopted this philosophy of yours ever survived it. If you look at it sanely you will realize how fundamentally antisocial the attitude you are presenting is, and that if it is followed it leads to the complete collapse of your government. In short it is the most antisocial and psychopathic philosophy ever devised.
Another interesting feature of it, the most vocal proponents of it are the first to cry for bailouts by the rest of us when it is their own oxe getting gored.

If your philosophy was followed, Benjamin we should do away with any form of government all together and revert back to the simple law of the jungle where the highest social function is the prey/predator relationship.
Even Chimps are more evolved than that, my friend.

Good luck protecting your property with no police and with constructing your own roads if you want to trade with others, because after all, if you get hijacked it is ultimately your own fault and there is no reason I should be forced pay for covering your sorry butt.