First, the warning - it is illegal to possess a bow in your vehicle in a national park unless the bow is either unstrung or in a case (not sure about whether you need a lock).

Asking for your advice - my 19 year old son had a bow in his truck which a park ranger saw when he asked my son why he was in an area after dark (yes, he shouldn't have been there but he was leaving and was doing nothing else wrong). My son is as much of a knucklehead as any average 19 year old but he's a good knucklehead and has never been in trouble beyond a curfew violation when he was 16. Federal Court levied a $500 fine against him. He's trying to live on his own and is broke all the time. I think the fine is way too high. Any of you have any experience with something like this? I'm considering paying part of the fine - otherwise he might have to move back home **shudders**.

Make sure someone pays it.

My buddy's son did a similar thing, but didn't pay and
ended up in the pokey for the night. When the kid's friend
borrowed his truck and did something else stupid (illegal)
the kid got in trouble for that. Things just kind of snowballed
and he got kicked out of college for his criminal record.

He had to move back in with Dad for awhile.

Was this a national park?

Did your son appear before the Judge? Did he have the option to? Did he make a statement before the court, in person or in writing? Did he plead innocent or guilty?

If the court has already ruled in this case I think your only legal option is to appeal.

But I think I'd chalk this all up as an expensive lesson for your son. Even if you pay part of the fine for him now (probably a bargain compared to him moving home and eating your groceries), he should pay you back eventually.

To express your opinion on the fine, you should write a letter to the Park Superintendent, the head of the National Park Service, the U.S. Secretary of the Interior, your two U.S. Senators and your congressional representative.

Shenandoah National Park, which we frequent, has an awful time with poachers -- who have even decapitated deer in the campground for the sake of a trophy rack of antlers. So I am sympathetic with the need for big fines and vigilant enforcement. The rangers have to be suspicious and tough.

It was a National Park about 7 miles from his house and ours. The Ranger figured he would want the bow and arrows back so he made it mandatory that my son appear before a judge (the only way to get the stuff back). He pleaded guilty - the Ranger all but promised he would get a fairly light fine. What burns is that all the cases that morning were National Park cases and of the drugs, damage to park property, and DUI - my son's case and the DUI were tied for the highest fine.

Yes, I know I'm whining. It does make me feel a little better though .

Good for you. Crimeny, law enforcement 101. Did they pay for your attorney?

Lots of peops keep their golf clubs in their car.

Izzy, thats a disturbing story. Can you imagine if those morons had been accused of a more serious violation? Glad it worked out okay. And Wheels, sucks for your son and the hefty fine, wish I had some useful advice.

It sounds like your son went to court without an attorney.

DO NOT GO TO COURT WITHOUT AN ATTORNEY. EVER.

If you don't do anything else, make sure that fine gets paid on time, even if you have to help. Failure to pay will rack up another charge.

I imagine the officer downplayed the amount of the fine, either because your son was cooperative and he expected to include that in his case report, or because your son was upset and the officer needed him to calm down. The police officer making the arrest can suggest what type of judgement is appropriate, but the judge sets the final penalty.

I am not employed by NPS, but I can give you an idea of the thought processes involved in my area:

Bowhunters, and hunters in general, are expected to know the laws for the areas in which they carry their equipment. If the equipment is accessible and/or loaded, they are ready to hunt; if the equipment is cased, they are considered in transit, or not ready to hunt.
For example, Connecticut Statute 26-85: "...jacklight(ing) shall be construed as any artificial light when used...with...a rifle...a shotgun or...a bow and arrow...in any area frequented by deer...during the period from one-half hour after sunset to sunrise..." Artificial lights include car headlights.

After dark, people who are in areas which are posted "closed after dark," are trespassing. Yes, there are exceptions. "I was just leaving" is generally not one of them.

I am surprised at the amount of the fine, given your account. My guess is that there is an aggravating issue, be it regular poaching in the area, or something else.

Again, make sure the fine gets paid for your son's sake. Maybe get him a case for the bow.

now that IS stupid, and sounds like a deliberate trap to me.

He had an excellent attorney. His attorney, the prosecutor, and the Ranger met before the hearing and all seemed good ... a small fine to make sure he understood the issue and not repeat it. The Magistrate had been on the bench for a total of two weeks. She lectured at length about the possibility of an arrow hitting a person or an animal and how devastating that would be. I wonder what will happen in her courtroom when the next person actually has a bow out of their car? As a veteran LEO friend of mine said - "yeah, those bows don't have safeties on them" (he was disgusted by the size of the fine). OK, I'm whining again. This is my last reply for this post. Thanks to all for their good advice.

Appeal the amount of the fine, hell, appeal the verdict even if you ageed to it beforehand. That sounds like judicial misconduct to me. Even Federal magistrates have to answer to their bosses.

JohnE

IME
This is the kind of regulation that is put in place when the game wardens are stretched too thin: when they keep stumbling upon people with fishing gear, who are in FMAs where fishing is prohibited, they know that they can either spend man/hours waiting around to catch them fishing, or enact regulations that prohibit the possession of the equipment in no-fishing areas. If there was unlimited funding, they could just post someone on each FMA, but in reality people don't want to be taxed at a rate that would pay for that kind of staffing; to manage the resource, we end up with legislation that impacts the law-abiding segment of the population. The CT reg I cited makes it easier to take care of the jacklighters while they are shining for deer, without having to wait until they take a shot (although watching a jacklighter make perfect shots on a full-body whitetail decoy and then wonder why it doesn't drop, is just about the funniest thing I've seen). Regarding your hiking buddy, this is where discretion comes into play, both on the part of your friend, and the officer involved: a cased, pack rod on an obvious through-hiker, is an easy one for the officer to warn, not cite.

Is there a website you can go to before going into a national park to learn the laws and requirements? I don't want to get caught up in something like this, and I have a large survival kit in my trunk.

Go to nps.gov, browse to the park you want to visit, and under the management button, you should see "laws and policies." There is usually an email link to "resource protection" and a phone number for the chief ranger of the facility on that page, or somewhere on the site for each facility.

I won't debate the morality of getting out of real or apparent infractions and fines but generally it pays to contest any tickets and fines. Depends on how much your time is worth.

There is a good chance, approximately 50% according to some court records, that the ticketing officer will be unable to show up to testify in court. If the officer for any reason fails to show up the court automatically dismisses the charges on the basis of your inability to 'confront your accuser'.

There is some risk of the judge raising the fine if you bollix your appeal and flaunt your cynical attempt to work the system but generally if you don't shine them on the cost only goes up to the extent that you pay court cost.

Last time I asked court costs in misdemeanor cases were around $50. In effect your risking court cost and lost time to avoid the fine. A fair deal if the fine is $500 or more. Not so much if the fine is $60.

With the exception of traffic court. I got stuck with a bogus citation once on radar, which I am a licensed tech and was working on for the county at the time. I contested it, and the cop didn't show. The PA there said that it didn't matter that I was a licensed professional and that the conditions on the day of the citation were poor for using radar, or that the unit hadn't been calibrated recently. The judge agreed with the PA even though I provided all the evidence to the contrary. I asked to appeal, and the judge said no. I could've appealed elsewhere, but at the time it was only a $35 fine, and let me tell you I got that back in spades from the county Sheriff over the next year working on their radio system. Let's say they paid me back on about two orders of magnitude. Sometimes it helps to be the only game in town.

Some of the laws are open to intrepretation. We were asked to leave a national park because we were checking to see if our 6 month old needed a daiper change. According to the security person there that was prohibited.

Eugene, I certainly hope you didn't leave. Not that you should start a conflict with your family there but standing up to idiots is something that just has to be done.

JohnE

Random thought for the day...

At a former employer we created an on-boarding process that was designed to indoctrinate newhires into the company culture. This included values and ways of thinking the company cherished.

One of the scenarios we gave to young newhires was the following:

"You are late for something very important and hurry to make it on time. As a result you are pulled over and ticketed by the local police. What do you do? Explain your approach."

The newhires are asked to discuss their answer in small groups and present it to the class.

The creativity, variety and rationalizations we saw were truly amazing. Breathtaking in some instances. We were truly amazed at what they came up with to avoid the ticket.

However after a few years we actually stopped being surprised by the looks of amazement and disbelief on the newhire's faces when we presented our alternative answer...

"You did something against the rules. Simply pay the ticket and plan ahead next time"

Not once in all the years of doing that exercise did we have a group come up with that.

Fascinating story, doesn't apply but fascinating none the less.

There is no law prohibiting the changing of a baby's diaper in a national park, and laws that aren't in existence don't need to be obeyed, regardless of what some "security person" states.

There are laws in place about disposing of a baby's diaper in a national park.

JohnE

We did leave, I should have asked for his name and contacted the supervisors afterward.