I work at B&N, and recently saw this new release. While not really interested in TEOTWAWKI, I thought it may make an interesting read. I just finished Lucifer's Hammer, and honestly couldn't finish it. It's the only book I've ever outright thrown away, knowing I will never read it again.
I'd like to read books about survival, and I'm about to start "Adrift".
Seeing this new title, I'd like to know if anyone has read it and if it's worth picking up. If it were a hardcover, I could just use our book loan program and read it, but it's out in paperback. Just interested in survival techniques that work, not long term sustained planting, goat raising, post nuclear stuff.
Any comments....just don't want to waste my time again.
No flaming please.

I have not read the book, but the author runs SurvivalBlog, which is dedicated to all things Survival. This is a new edition of his novel. He has more information on his site:

http://www.rawles.to/patriots.htm

jane b

Not sure, but this thread might belong around the campfire. At any rate, I'm curious what you didn't like about Lucifer's Hammer. I thought it an interesting read (if dated and a touch unrealistic/optimistic). Adrift was a very different book altogether, and certainly holds your attention (except perhaps the lead-up at the beginning).

I wasn't planning on picking up Patriots - it seemed a bit like tin foil survivalist porn to me - but maybe I'll consider it; Amazon has it at 4 stars after 200+ reviews. But I have to think it has many correlations to Lucifer's Hammer: A small group rebuilds society after collapse of civilization, the difference being that the group in LH is not necessarily "survivalist" oriented - quite the opposite in many ways. So that's why I ask why you might like one vs. the other.

Cheers. And can you get ETS a discount @ B&N?

"Lucifer's Hammer"?

Are you refering to the science fiction novel?

It's not a survival manual.

The reason why Amazon has good reviews and the reason why it's going to be high on their list of purchased books is because the author begs his followers thru his website to buy the book thru Amazon specifically to bump up the sales figures.

Not saying that it's wrong for him to promote his book but the folks buying it are James Rawles fans, not the general book reading public. If you enjoy reading about folks are gonna allegedly "survive" in the post-apocalyptic world and you are a devout fundamentalist Christian, you'll probably enjoy the book. And if you think that a novel is gonna help you survive economic collapse.

I find it odd that Mr. Rawles rails against the coming collapse of society while at the same time selling and promoting tons of items and services thru his site that won't be of much use if the bottom should fall out. Anyone remember that movie with Robin Williams and the late great Walter Matthau in which the so-called survival instructor was really more interested in selling his followers time share condos and investment "opportunities" etc.? I also wonder if Mr. Rawles would accept rolls of nickels in exchange for some of his products and services?

I'd recommend that anyone interested in learning how people are profiting from exploiting people's fears read "The Shock Doctrine" by Naomi Klein.

For the record, what Doug does is the complete opposite of what Mr. Rawles and his fellow commercial survivalists are doing in my opinion, both in spirit as well as in practice.

JohnE

As a postscript, the only novel I've read that offered any sort of real, practical post-apocalyptic advice was "On the Beach" by Nevil Shute, in which we learn that gold absorbs radiation at a furious rate, making it not only worthless but deadly. Don't know what radiation does to nickels...

JohnE

It's iteresting that JohnE brings up nickles, because there's an interesting blog under "Nickels" at survivalblog.

Wasn't really reading Lucifer's Hammer as a survival manual per se, just reading it for entertainment sakes. I found it dragging for way too long. I would skip entire chapters at points, and seem to pick up where I left off later in the book. Perhaps I found it too outdated? (I probably would have enjoyed it when it first came out. Use to be I read nothing but sci-fi for 15 years...this is one one those books that I never got around to....oh well, better late than never?....)
Just looking for an interesting read that holds my attention while being factual and entertaining, without being out and out TOO apocalyptic. It's also interesting that Patriots has been available for two weeks, while on survialblog it states.... "Please do not place any orders for the new edition until April 8, 2009--the planned "book bomb" day. By forestalling orders, we hope to drive the book's Amazon sales rank into the Top Ten. Thanks"

I'm not trying to start trouble, but thank heavens for level headed people on this site! That's why I joined this site and look forward to meaningful discussions and points of view.

I attended a two year community college that began life as a post WW2 agricultural school.After nearly 4 decades that saw a semi rural and agricultural area become urban, a rather unusual 'problem' came up for the first time in those 4 decades.

A coyote appeared on campus. There were fears hundreds of sheep, dairy,beef cattle,horses and pigs would be decimated.Biology professors were at odds with the ag science department and the maintenance crew noted a sharp drop in the feral cat population.

Two BLM burros were acquired to 'bond' with the sheep and guard against coyotes, a trait promoted by the BLM.
The burros proceeded to kick and kill 9 sheep.
One of the biology professors mentioned to the equestrian instructor burros carried a cronic lung infection that could spread to horses.

The burros went away. A campus police officer shot the lone coyote. The feral cat population exploded.

The ONLY predictable is that the unpredictable will happen.
It can be a TEOTWAWKI novel or a survival manual. When you accept everything as gospel, or a set piece of actions and reaction, Mother Nature will send you a BLM burro.

I read the older 2006 version of the book with the brown cover. Its okay reading, pretty high up there on the tin foil hat scale, but I have read my copy 2-3 times. I personally prefure "lights out" "deep winter" "shatter (deep winter 2)"... the 3rd in the series is on its way "remnant" cant wait, and "cold camp". There are other short stories on frugal forums (winds of change series), THR (the bug out), ARFcom (WAY too many to mention), and others that are available for free from members who post parts of their stories regularly and keeps me entertained.

Yes its true the deep winter and shatter are authorized by the author for distribution via email, just no hosting on a website. Lights out is only available via electronic formats. I however bought both deep winter and shatter from the author signed. Its the least I could do for writing such great books. Even the coworkers I have given PDFs to enjoy reading them.

I find that well written western novels, such as Louis L'Amour, Zane Grey, and Ralph Compton, are full of fairly accurate period based survival information for a time before modern technology. Reading those books, which are often well researched for authenticity, you get a good sense of how people lived off the land in remote and not necessarily comfortable environments with very little to work with. When caprentry consists of little more than slapping boards together with a few nails like a house of cards and the only way to purify water was to add coffee grounds and boil it for an hour over an open fire, well, you start to understand that you don't need a bath every week to get by, and toothpaste in the form of a little baking soda or salt on the tip of a finger if you were fortunate to have either handy and enough to spare.

I didn't refer to it first. And I was under the distinct impression that Patriots was also a work of fiction.

"Patriots" is a work of fiction.

JohnE

"Patriots" by James Rawles is not a new book. It first appeared on the web for free under the title TEOTWAWKI and has been updated and expanded on a bit. Its the epitome of the paranoid, gun worshiping, bunker survival style.

It is considered by some to be a survival manual but it might more properly be termed adolescent action hero gun-porn because the focus is clearly on using violence to solve problems.

The secondary characters serve to demonstrate the superiority of the protagonist by acting as victims, object lessons warning of what happens to people who aren't armed to the teeth and paranoid, or predatory vermin to be destroyed. The protagonist shows equal measures of depraved indifference and contempt for both.

Great amounts of text are used to describe the weapons and their effects. Think Mad Max with fewer cars if Max spent half the movie describing his weaponry. The writing lacks both the redeeming social value and subtle character development of Mad Max. It is not high literature but it is a fun read as long as you understand that it is a caricature of conflict and just a step above a comic book. The comic book having an edge because it doesn't pretend to be realistic.

It really doesn't have much to say about actual survival in any realistic sense. If you want to understand survivalism, the caricature of practical real world survival you will at some time need to read Patriots.

But then lay most of what it says aside as childish and understand that violence and firearms as weapons are the smallest, and often the least important part of practical survival. That the vast majority of survival is a boring test of endurance and heroic action is a sign of a lack of planning and preparedness.

7 Samurai- the Magnificient Seven

Star Wars- Battlestar Galactica

The Turner Diaries- Patriots

I withdraw my reconsideration after reading this. It's just what I expected then. Thanks Art.

By-the-by, I found Lucifer's Hammer to drag quite a bit up front. I suppose setting the stage for world cataclysm was the goal (and perhaps less generally understood in the 70's when the Discovery channel wasn't running how the world could end shows every week), but I too had to force myself to keep going. About a third of the way through, things pick up and then really don't stop, so it's one of those books. This is also the reason why I sometimes force myself through a book if I find the idea interesting. Anyway, it's not a bad read overall. A little unrealistic regarding how the weather/climate/natural disasters occur - but I guess we have better computer modeling now.

I just finished 'Patriots' and I guess I didn't like it very much. I found it too religious and political biased for my taste and, while some of the information provided was accurate, I couldn't overcome my disliking for conspiracy theories.

I rather much prefer 'Alas Babylon', 'Earth Abides', 'Hatchet' or 'Day By Day Armageddon'.

Just my two cents worth...

For a very haunting glimpse into the future of post-apocalyptic sci-fi take a look at the Parable of the Sower , followed by Parable of the Talents books by Octavia Butler.

maybe I am off, but I did enjoy the book. I just finished it today. I suppose part of that is that I lived in that area for two years and hunted quite a bit in those areas of the Palouse. Plus it had a little on Arizona.

I first half which is mostly a fictional way to go through how someone(s) prepare with a TEOTWAWKI bent. But really all the decisions made by 'The Group' were all things I have considered, such as weapons, fuels, bartering concepts, gardening, medical and so forth.

The second half of the book detailing the federales was a bit weak but its a dime story novel so I let it go.

I have had Deep Winter and Shatter in my e-mail for over a year now and just realized they are available on amazon... wow, I`m gonna have to support the author and pickup a copy of each and read them.

Patriots to me was "OK". I won't re-read it until years or so have passed and I forgot about it and want to re-read it again then. Lights Out in my opinion was way better, but rushed towards the end. It's so long you want to re-read it again to re-remember things from the start, or maybe I just can't get away to read it so often, ha.

Either way I suggest Lights Out over Patriots ANY DAY.

I read them for entertainment not as a "manual" for collapse... so if you are reading for that your view may be different than mine.

Is "Lights Out" available in a printed book form?

It's available as a .pdf download here:
http://www.frugalsquirrels.com/friends_links.html

I wish.

I read it on the computer in PDF and then printed it, way to many printed pages, ahaha.

I hope someday they make it into a "BOOK".

Yep, I've had that for awhile, I just can't stand to read a PC screen that long!

I don't suggest printing unless you have a laser We did it chapter by chapter, and still the stack you end up with when done is HUGE.

Consider taking it into Kinkos and having them print/bind it that may be a good idea.

With due respect to Mr.Rawles I really think that downloading a copy is not really the best way to go. The download looks to be one of the earlier versions and most likely lacks the last few chapters and some of the later tweaking that got done in later versions. I also think that buying the book has advantages.

To start with Rawles wrote it and, as much as I think it isn't high literature and isn't much of a survival guide, it is not entirely without value as survivalist fiction. It is something of a touchstone within the community and a valuable window into what the thinking was in Survivalism of the late 70s. Survivalism that hasn't changed that much over thirty years and which remains the evil stalking twin of preparedness and practical survival.

Burt Gummer in "Tremors" was a kinder, gentler version of that sort of bunker survivalism. "Patriots" fills in more of the dark, resentment and conspiracy filled corners of the genre but fails to climb the heights. It is IMHO just needlessly violence centered enough to be annoying and just gear focused enough to miss the point. Fun casual reading but to get the full flavor of gratuitous violence and gear fetishism look up Jerry Ahern and his "Survivalist" series. Plenty of material there, twenty-seven books of it. By the time you get through the first few books the need to read the rest diminishes.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Survivalist
Check the link for names of other writers in the genre and a useful guide to the "Survivalist" series.

In terms of buying versus downloading I also think that authors deserve to be paid for their efforts. Buying it from Rawles, or a vendor, gets you a hard copy book you can comfortably read in bed, keep on your bookshelf and loan out to friends. The actual cost of the book, including S&H, isn't much more than what you would send in paper, ink, wear and tear on your printer if you download and print it out.

Hey I liked Bert from Tremors!

Who hasn't looked longingly at that wall in his basement?

Perhaps because I read "Lucifer's Hammer" in the 80's I enjoyed it more (it wasn't very out-dated at that time). From another perspective I also read "Patriots". If you take it as a "post-crash apocolypse" novel and read it for entertainment it isn't half bad. It does get "preachy" in places, but hey, some folks are like that, so reading about them isn't necessarily a bad thing. These are, after all, the author's characters, not mine.

"Patriots" for me was a read-it-think-about-it book. Others are merely entertainment.

How many of you also read Jerry Ahern's "The Survivalist"????

I have drooled over owning a pair of Detonics Combat Masters ever since...

[quote=jjmagnum]PHow many of you also read Jerry Ahern's "The Survivalist"????/quote]

If the world ended today, could John Thomas Roarke survive?



What a flashback!!!

My all time favorite movie! You can never accuse Tremors of taking itself too seriously!

Yes, when the camera panned back on the wall everyone busts out laughing...

Hmm, I finished reading the two sections of "Lights Out" that were on the website. Seems to end rather abruptly. Is there any more to the story than those twenty chapters? It doesn't say anything more about it on the website on in the text.

I found the rest of "Lights Out" and finished reading the whole story over the weekend. It was a good read, though I agree not totally relevent or realistic. I intend to have my daughters read the story and then do a Q&A with them, and correct some of the errors and fantasies that were used in the story.