#169836 - 03/20/09 07:00 PM
Re: Ground to Air Emergency Signaling
[Re: Meadowlark]
|
Journeyman
Registered: 01/09/09
Posts: 59
|
I think it depends who you expect to see your signal.
Everybody knows what SOS means, and what to do about it (with the exception of a small number of people working near a certain resort in BC, but I digress).
But if Joe Average is out skiing and he sees a big X in the snow on the slope opposite, is he likely to do anything about it?
If you left a trip plan, and you're overdue, then you know that SAR is likely to come looking for you. If your buddy broke his leg, and you're stranded, and you're not overdue ... you may be relying on Joe Average to interpret what your signal means.
|
Top
|
|
|
|
#169840 - 03/20/09 08:16 PM
Re: Ground to Air Emergency Signaling
[Re: Meadowlark]
|
Enthusiast
Registered: 04/05/08
Posts: 288
Loc: Europe
|
This is interesting question. I thought about this too. I would probably try to make the "SOS" because (like Andrew S has mentioned) it would be clear to more people as opposed to "V" or "X". I would make the "V" symbol if I knew SAR people are looking for me or if I had no time or energy for making the "SOS" symbol.
Similar question arises: what would you use for acoustical signaling (whistle) or light signaling (flashlight)?
..._ _ _... (SOS) or _ _ _ (3x sound/flash) ?
If you were in Alpine area would you use the Alpine distress signal(6 signals in one minute, then one minute pause, then repeat) or rather something else?
|
Top
|
|
|
|
#169852 - 03/20/09 11:04 PM
Re: Ground to Air Emergency Signaling
[Re: raptor]
|
Geezer
Registered: 01/21/04
Posts: 5163
Loc: W. WA
|
If I heard and audible SOS or three of something with a pause in between, or three fires or smokes (esp in a triangle), or saw SOS in the snow, I would report it. An X could be a marking for a helicopter to land to pick up some rich hunters.
And if I saw/heard any of those in Canada, I would report DIRECTLY to the RCMP.
Sue
|
Top
|
|
|
|
#169857 - 03/21/09 12:39 AM
Re: Ground to Air Emergency Signaling
[Re: ]
|
Enthusiast
Registered: 04/05/08
Posts: 288
Loc: Europe
|
Good post Izzy, but isn´t the diagram about ground to air symbols rather for military? I think something like this would be more universal.
|
Top
|
|
|
|
#169860 - 03/21/09 01:20 AM
Re: Ground to Air Emergency Signaling
[Re: ]
|
Journeyman
Registered: 01/09/09
Posts: 59
|
I think the reality is that searchers won't expect the lost party to know ground-to-air signals. Anything that makes your position visible from the air will get checked out, whether it means "require doctor" or "serious injuries, require medevac" or "require assistance," or even "all is well, send pizza" for that matter.
(That last one is a circle, divided into eight segments. Remember that, it could save your life one day.)
This is one of those cases where information from military survival manuals isn't really relevant to the civvie side. Those signals are really for military communication sans radio, rather than universal distress signals. You don't need correct signals if you've been reported lost; if not, you need something that anyone will recognize as a distress signal.
Michael Green, a British humour writer, discusses distress signals in his book The Art of Coarse Cruising, complete with photo illustrations of "correct" and "incorrect" signals.
The "incorrect" photo shows a boat flying its flag upside down, ball hoisted over signal flag, etc., while the crew calmly await rescue. The "correct" photo shows a boat displaying no signals whatsoever, but with the crew in various comic poses of panic.
It's funny, but it's true.
|
Top
|
|
|
|
#169867 - 03/21/09 03:39 AM
Re: Ground to Air Emergency Signaling
[Re: ]
|
Pooh-Bah
Registered: 09/01/07
Posts: 2432
|
A friend with two female passengers took his boat a little too far offshore when their engine quit. They had no radio. They waved various objects and flashed lights at the many small aircraft that flew nearby. A CG helicopter kept flying nearby but it refused to slow down or take notice.
Thing changed when the two ladies removed their tops. The helicopter slowed down and got closer. Once they were close enough my friend held up a sign made of his tee shirt with "HELP" written on it in engine grease The pilot asked over the speaker what the problem was. They indicated engine problems and signed that they were otherwise safe but had no radio.
The pilot indicated that help would be there soon. About ten minutes later a small CG boat pulled up and gave them a tow. On the way back the ladies flashed, waved and generally flirted with the CG crew. The CG was nice enough to pull them right up to their launch site and announce the help was free. There may have been an exchange of phone numbers.
Lesson: If your going to get into trouble have a couple of nice looking ladies close by. Your average male rescue worker might miss a 10' square distress flag that's close enough to touch. But can spot a well formed rack at a kilometer through fog.
Like fishing, you have to use the right bait.
|
Top
|
|
|
|
#169869 - 03/21/09 03:58 AM
Re: Ground to Air Emergency Signaling
[Re: Meadowlark]
|
Journeyman
Registered: 10/23/02
Posts: 97
Loc: Brooklyn NY
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
#169886 - 03/21/09 01:47 PM
Re: Ground to Air Emergency Signaling
[Re: Art_in_FL]
|
Journeyman
Registered: 01/09/09
Posts: 59
|
Lesson: If your going to get into trouble have a couple of nice looking ladies close by. But that's not always going to be practical. You're much better off carrying a small bag containing a wig, lipstick, and a set of falsies. After all, the only person you can really rely on is yourself.
|
Top
|
|
|
|
#169909 - 03/21/09 05:44 PM
Re: Ground to Air Emergency Signaling
[Re: Andrew_S]
|
Member
Registered: 10/08/05
Posts: 108
|
LOL Art and Andrew,
Now I have to revise my EDC again. But how in the world am I going to explain carrying falsies to my wife...
_________________________
MedB
|
Top
|
|
|
|
#170613 - 04/04/09 02:43 PM
Re: Ground to Air Emergency Signaling
[Re: MedB]
|
Member
Registered: 02/21/09
Posts: 149
Loc: UK
|
You have a duty of care for yourself and others that you go on a trip with, it is externally important to inform someone of every trip you make. Doing this you have started you rescue process before you have even left on your trip, if you have not reported your return at a prearranged time the authorities can be informed that you have not returned and have some idea of the area you are in.
The fact is any S&R assets used in locating you will investigate anything that is unnatural or unusual that stands out from the environment.
The major problem for air to ground search operations is for the air asset to see the casualty. Many people think that it is easy to see someone on the ground from the air but this is not the case, even with a casualty in an orange survival bag and the air asset can find it very hard to spot the target even if they have grid coordinates for the casualty.
Any ground to air markers need to be large and stand out from there environment, these are V, X, N, Y and arrow. There is an international legal requirement that every seaman and airman know these signals and that they have a copy of these signals in their on-board manuals. The problem is that some people that see these signals but are not aware of an incident do not make a mental connection that it is a distress signal and often just think that’s unusual” and think nothing more of it. This is a problem with many written regulation, people know them but don’t recognise them in real life unless they have had prior experience or been told to look out for them.
I have experienced this whilst walking in the mountains, I heard a whistle being blown whilst walking on a well used footpath, other walkers on the path must have heard the whistle but I was the only person to respond until I mentioned to a group following me that someone was blowing a whistle. I have also read and I think it was on here, of someone lighting three fires as a signal which was ignored until a passenger plane reported to ATC.
If you plan to use passive ground to air signals its best practice to combine them with active signals too.
Thanks for the tip re having a young lady along with you, I often walk with a very attractive friend and I am a big fan of multi use survival items but I wont be telling her of her secondary use she will never have anything else to do with me!
Edited by PureSurvival (04/04/09 02:45 PM)
|
Top
|
|
|
|
#170638 - 04/05/09 01:54 AM
Re: Ground to Air Emergency Signaling
[Re: PureSurvival]
|
Carpal Tunnel
Registered: 02/09/01
Posts: 3824
|
I had a C 130 leak fuel in the hanger while on midwatch.
I never saw a helicopter refuse to slow down or take notice.
Bad Coast Guard helicopter, bad,bad.
|
Top
|
|
|
|
#170666 - 04/05/09 07:19 PM
Re: Ground to Air Emergency Signaling
[Re: Chris Kavanaugh]
|
Rapscallion
Carpal Tunnel
Registered: 02/06/04
Posts: 4020
Loc: Anchorage AK
|
I always thought a kite would be a darned good signaling aid. I have a parafoil type kit (no frame) that goes almost vertical so easily. I would imagine putting a strobe on the kite and sending it a thousand feet into the air might not be a bad way to signal at night, and using the same kite in the daytime might also be useful. That kite and the line all fit in a little nylon bag about the size of a sandwich sized ziploc. I also figured that during the day you could blow up a bag of balloons and tie one off on the line every 10 feet or so. That'd be hard to miss in open country. Not so good in heavy woods, but then you have plenty of fuel to make smoke and fire signals with.
_________________________
The ultimate result of shielding men from the effects of folly is to fill the world with fools. -- Herbert Spencer, English Philosopher (1820-1903)
|
Top
|
|
|
|
#170668 - 04/05/09 08:59 PM
Re: Ground to Air Emergency Signaling
[Re: benjammin]
|
Addict
Registered: 07/04/02
Posts: 436
Loc: Florida
|
There was an ETS thread discussion several years ago that discussed kites, IIRC it was was an inflatable type of kite that was sold in several sizes, radar reflective, primarily for boating use. I could see some value in it, but was leery of the inflatable getting punctured. I've seen several parasail type kites that would easily do what you suggested with the strobe. Regards, Comanche7
|
Top
|
|
|
|
#170674 - 04/06/09 12:50 PM
Re: Ground to Air Emergency Signaling
[Re: Comanche7]
|
Rapscallion
Carpal Tunnel
Registered: 02/06/04
Posts: 4020
Loc: Anchorage AK
|
Yeah, once you get them up over a few hundred feet, they stay up almost perpetually during the day. We did that once on a 1000 yard spool, and it tooks us over two hours to retreive the kite. We were using 80 lb dacron line and I figured the string weight would eventually be a factor, but it just kept taking line, and would've continued had we let it. The kite was just a speck in the sky to us.
_________________________
The ultimate result of shielding men from the effects of folly is to fill the world with fools. -- Herbert Spencer, English Philosopher (1820-1903)
|
Top
|
|
|
|
#171898 - 04/23/09 05:28 PM
Re: Ground to Air Emergency Signaling
[Re: CANOEDOGS]
|
Member
Registered: 02/21/09
Posts: 149
Loc: UK
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
#171920 - 04/24/09 12:43 AM
Re: Ground to Air Emergency Signaling
[Re: PureSurvival]
|
Pooh-Bah
Registered: 12/18/08
Posts: 1534
Loc: Muskoka
|
Yes Canoedogs, and B.C. Hydro still tells their linemen that if they are lost to light one big fire instead of three.
Not only is the one fire easier to look after, but you can make it big enough that the smoke punches through the thermal inversion layer and rises as a column instead of spreading out and looking like another fog bank.
They are actually told to find a lonely spruce. One that is isolated on an island is preferred. Then stuff the lower branches full of kindling and torch it. They figure the forest service will locate that flare for them and send somebody to check it out. The tree does not have to be dead to burn but the drier it is the better it will flare.
It is real good to have somebody looking for you though. A lot of people would never make the connection between a signal and somebody in trouble. So have a travel plan like a flight path with a return time handed in before you take off intro the great unknown, right.
_________________________
May set off to explore without any sense of direction or how to return.
|
Top
|
|
|
|
#171934 - 04/24/09 11:29 AM
Re: Ground to Air Emergency Signaling
[Re: CANOEDOGS]
|
Veteran
Registered: 11/01/08
Posts: 1530
Loc: DFW, Texas
|
I thought Hydro was a farming technique for growing vegetables, and some illicit plants.
_________________________
I do the things that I must, and really regret, are unfortunately necessary.
RIP OBG
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
1
|
2
|
3
|
4
|
5
|
6
|
7
|
8
|
9
|
10
|
11
|
12
|
13
|
14
|
15
|
16
|
17
|
18
|
19
|
20
|
21
|
22
|
23
|
24
|
25
|
26
|
27
|
28
|
29
|
30
|
|
0 registered (),
459
Guests and
8
Spiders online. |
Key:
Admin,
Global Mod,
Mod
|
|
|