It means : Attention Deficit Disorder

Ask Susan

In her thread asking about Mac computers she mentioned that she has ADD. Well, guess what. I do too.

ummm I havent seen a adoctor, or really I did long time ago, but didnt continue with any of them long enough to reach anywhere. One suggested medications and I refused

I read somewhere that ADD can be treated either by medications or behaviourial treatemnts. I am interetsed in the latter. If there is any diet change, that is OK too. But no pills for me.

So, Sue and everyone else, I may have asked about this earlier I dont remember but I wish everyone gives their opinion on what to do.

Right now I am in my fifties. Stable job and family is OK. Been focused on preparedness for a few years now. Facing the same challenges like everyone else ( regarding teenage kids ..etc.). Problem is trying to focus on ANY job for long enough time. For example, I have got a room for my home office but it is now more than a year since a I made a resolution to oganise it the way I wanted. I have lost many things within the mess from SAKs to flash drives ..etc. and have missed business opportunities that I could have utilized for additional income and great contacts for post-retirement home-based business.

What I want to do, is FOCUS to build a part-time biz and read the huge collection of files I got from the net about self-improvement , home improvement, business developement, and clean up my marriage life from the small problems it has. Doing that while at the same time handling a stressful job and a few children education programs.

.... ahem, and working on preparedness off course.

Oh before you ask about DW, she is a great housewife but that's about it. She won't read a book in NLP or family preparedness.

Input from ADD folks is more than welcome.
Starting with Sue.
Thanks.

Partner I understand about the med's, but....

Both my son and my wife are ADD all over the place. No medication = no life. We have tried every "non-traditional" approach (no pills) and they failed miserably.

Once we found the right doctor and combined medication with behavior modification and exercise things got much better.

Both are also bi-polar which adds loads of fun to the mix. This might be something you could speak to a doc about as the two seem to go hand in hand.

For more specific info, PM me. The full rundown is long and tedious for a regular thread.

I guess I am more a product of the 70s, or maybe I just don't like being medicated, but I've always figured that most mental conditions for which doctores prescribe medications can be better fixed using some form or another of therapy. I guess for me it is a chicken or the egg sort of situation, is it a chemical imbalance affecting the mind's ability to function, or is it that the mind wants to function a certain way and is making the chemical conditions such as they are that cause the erratic behavior. My bhuddist influence tells me that there is no mental condition that cannot be controlled/modified with a disciplined will. All that is lacking is motivation.

It's just a product of my experiences.

Buddhism can't change the chemistry in the brain, it may allow one to deal with the aftereffects of not changing it easier. I'm a practicing Buddhist myself and I haven't read anything that even remotely suggests that using medications is wrong.

Actual ADD and ADHD in children and in adults isn't a matter of motivation or discipline, it's a brain chemistry problem that is best fixed with the proper medications alongside proper nutrition, exercise, and training. Having said that, there are plenty of people with mild forms of both running around who don't need medications. It's all a matter of degree.

There's a huge difference between a "mental condition" and a brain disorder.

The original poster stated that they were trying to organise a room into an office and that by not doing so they knew that they had lost items and business, it is affecting their life in a very real way and I would strongly suggest, as the parent of a child with severe ADD, along with some learning disabilities, and as someone who also suffers from a minor form of ADD, that you go back to your doctor and find out what sort of medications are now available to help you with a very real medical problem.

I understand the "no pills for me" attitude, I have a strong aversion to taking most any form of medication myself but there are many diseases and health conditions for which medication is the best method of dealing, by refusing to consider all the means available to help yourself, you're condemning yourself to a life that could very well be much improved. Good luck.

JohnE

My first question is, do you really have ADD? Cuz I gotta tell you, it's hugely over-diagnosed (esp in kids). Not being able to organize a room isn't "attention deficit," it's "life." As in, just too busy. That's my first question.
To help out:
http://www.add.org/
http://www.webmd.com/add-adhd/guide/adhd-tests-making-assessment
Read all 3 pages on this one; diagnostic criteria on pages 2 & 3

Second, if it turns out that you do fit criteria, then yes, there are non-pharmacologic forms of treatment. My cousin actually did fairly well, but it took a very determined mother and several years of treatment. Even then, he was a terminally poor student until he blossomed at the start of college (as in, C's and D's up to A's). Not sure what she tried, but I can try and find out if you PM me.

I can't afford to buy much medication, and I don't like it anyway, AND I forget to take it half the time. I can't even remember to take vitamins regularly.

The one naturopathic remedy that I've taken that seems to help me focus is DMAE from a health food/supplements store, dimethylaminoethanol, from fish. From the label: "DMAE is present in small amounts in all living organisms. DMAE has been found to increase choline levels. Choline serves a a precursor of acetylcholine, which is one of the neurotransmiiters responsible for memory function."

MDinana: It isn't just lack of organization from lack of time, it's

* Not paying bills when you have the time, the bill, the money, the checkbook, the addressed envelope and the stamp.
* Having to call your carry-around landline phone or cell phone to find out where you left it.
* Having to leave your cell phone, purse, keys, shovels, etc, in designated places or you'll never find them.
* Having to live by lists because you don't usually concentrate on anything, or what you have to do, long enough to retain it in your memory, because you're instantly thinking of something else.
* Struggling to learn something that doesn't interest you, and focusing intently (obsessing) on the stuff that does.
* Being so easily distracted that you don't remember what someone just said to you because something he said made you think of something else.
* Having a mind that won't shut off, that is constantly jumping from one idea to another.
* Doing or saying something before you think it out, and getting yourself in trouble.
* Having to write directions down because you can't keep them in your head long enough to do any good.
* Being chronically late for EVERYTHING.
* Having every flat surface with stuff stacked on it.
* Chronic procrastination.
* Starting a new project and then not finishing... ALL THE TIME.
* Reversing letters and numbers, and turning words around when you're talking. (not dyslexia)
* Poor coordination, lousy at sports.
* Insomnia because you can't shut off all the thoughts running through your mind.

I wasn't diagnosed until I was 56, but once I was, I could track the problem right back through my life to when I was a child.

It also appears to be genetic. I can see it in my sister and my half-brother.

It is said to affect about 5% of the population. Many children are diagnosed by the SCHOOLS rather than a professional. A school with "learning disabled" children gets more money, even though many of the learning problems are caused by the teaching methods more than the kids' problems.

Sue

I would agree that brain chemistry can be manipulated using different substances. LSD is just one of many that are proven to alter the brain's physiological state. In fact, most of what we experience in our environment affects brain physiology in one way or another. However, my contention is that the mind is also capable of inducing physiological changes, without the need of external agents, and in such a way as to reproduce any and every physiological change that such external agents, inlcuding prescription psychiatric meds, is able to affect, at least within the physical limits of a given physiology. I would even go so far as to say that a properly disciplined mind would not only be able to reproduce physiological conditions, but also counteract externally induced changes to some degree.

Granted it takes a lot of training and discipline, but it is doable.

Weather it is ADD or and other disorder ( BTW who decides it is a “disorder” ) like dyslexia or addictions. The first step is to want to do something about the problem. We do live in a world where it seems everyone wants a fast cure. It goes back to the, “I want it now” thinking that we see all the time. From what I have seen the ‘natural’ remedies often take longer to work but are easier on the one’s body than most of the drugs. But as they say, you have to make up your own mind. It’s your body do what works for you.

Given that no one can define what a "properly disciplined mind" is, I would hope that anyone suffering from the symptoms of ADD or ADHD would seek advice from a health care provider with actual experience in things like brain chemistry.

Sorry but I find your contention to be dangerous, the idea that simply disciplining one's mind will cure actual physiological problems and chemical imbalances is simply incorrect.

No offense intended but what you're claiming is akin to telling a person suffering from epilepsy to just quit having seizures by disciplining their mind, it simply doesn't work that way.

JohnE

Sue,

Thanks for the list. Seems I meet many of those items. I just figured I was lazy or didn't care enough. As mentioned by others the severity of it varies. I believe mine is fairly low. Thanks for the insight though!

I'll agree with that. Our current state of civilized development and social engineering fairly preclude our ability to effectively deal with most of the mental physiologic problems we generally contend with on an internal level, so external manipulation of the chemistry/physiology of our bodies seems to be the only method that will work for most of us. So long as our society insists that pharmaceutical treatment is the most effective approach to dealing with our afflictions, I wouldn't expect any other process to work, at least not in a general sense. I think it is in error to conclude that such correction is not possible. We simply have not fully explored the potential. There is, I believe, enough anecdotal evidence to strongly suggest that at least some of us are capable of physiologic manipulation without the aid of external remedies.

That it doesn't work that way now doesn't mean that it can't, just that we perhaps aren't ready for it yet.

First of all, I am not a mental health professional. However, I work in a large urban public library that is visited every day by a lot of mentally ill people - I wind up dealing with many of them. Most are simply "odd" but others are profoundly mentally ill and when they're off their meds they are completely unable to deal with society - I recall a man wrestling with four LEOs who tased and sprayed him and then the man put one of the officers out of commission for 6 months ... they finally put leg shackles on the man, in addition to cuffs (the man still comes to the door and I have to tell him he can't come into the building - he is now cool, calm, and collected and on his meds). I would suggest that maybe many people with mild to moderate mental illness might be helped without using meds but profoundly mentally ill people probably cannot.

My $.02

Wheels

Sue, I didn't say it wasn't real, just that it's over diagnosed (at least in kids). Teachers shouldn't be diagnosing people. Sorry, but you coop a kid up in class, yeah, they get antsy. Some more than others. The teacher should be just one person polled for the kids behavior, but so many times the pediatrician used that one report to diagnose them. And, oh yeah, forgets about needing 6 months of consistent symptoms to be a real diagnosis.

All I was telling the OP is to make sure he truly has it. Given his short post, we don't have enough information one way or another. Things like "stable job and family" lead away from a dx, and not able to organize a room doesn't necessarily mean ADD. He doesn't give enough examples (IMO) to decisively say whether he truly has the disease. If there are many examples that support ADD, so be it. But if he just can't organize well, I'd hate for him to start treatment for something he doesn't have.

Medications aren't benighn.

I know how that all goes..
I have definatly found to be genetic as both of my children have ADHD.. I only have ADD and Bipolar..
I have read that somewhere someone did brain scans on children with ADD/ADHD and the "wiring" was diferent then a "normal" brain..

I am also ADD, but I refuse to be medicated all the time. Once I finally got tested at the age or 30 or so (I had no doubt I had ADD), they prescribed various medications and I did try them, but couldn't stand the effects. I've just pretty much gotten used to the fact that I think a little bit differently than most people. I do find that I am much better at problem-solving because of it, though.

Funny story - One of the parts of the testing was where they handed you some black and white blocks, then showed you a picture, then you had to assemble the blocks to match the picture in less than 2 minutes. After about 10 times of repeating this, and doing so successfully every time in roughly 5 seconds each time, I finally told the lady giving me the test that I can solve a Rubik's Cube in less than 2 minutes and that the test was pointless.

"...a properly disciplined mind would not only be able to reproduce physiological conditions, but also counteract externally induced changes to some degree."

I've had that idea thrown at me all my life. For DECADES, I couldn't figure out why I was so STUPID! It wasn't until my problem was diagnosed and I learned about it that I understood.

The Problem: How can you discipline your mind when you can't focus long enough to do any good?

The Answer: Darned if I know!

It's almost impossible for me to hypnotize myself because I can't concentrate. I've NEVER had anyone else able to hypnotize me. Focus on the watch, light, spot, etc? FOCUS???!!! NOW who's not paying attention?!

Looking backwards, I realized how many ways I found to deal with the reality of it:

* Developing x-rays at work (the old days, manually): Wear a timer and hope I wouldn't be sidetracked as I walked down the hall.

* Put important things (like keys) in the same place all the time.

* Leave notes on the kitchen counter to remind myself to lock up the chickens at night, turn the dryer on in the morning, call someone, go to a meeting.

* Leave the laundry basket on the washer or dryer so I'll remember that there are still clothes in there.

* Make sure anyone I'm sharing a house with puts the plastic "Shower" card on the washing machine before they head for the bathroom, or they'll get a cold surprise.

* Leave something on the dash in front of the steering wheel to remember to get gas.

* Keep writing materials handy 24/7.

* Keep a main shopping list to refer to so I can remember what it was that I forgot to put on the current grocery list when I was brushing my teeth or feeding the dog.

* Strangers think I have tattoos on the backs of my hands. No, just notes and lists, odometer readings and reminders.

* Leave a list of all the errands I have to run and what I need to get where, on the car seat, so I can refer to it as I go.

It's all very easy for others to say 'just do it', and they're talking to people who desperately wish we could. But you're as out of touch with how we are as you are in knowing how a fish thinks.

Sue

I would never suggest anyone with such a condition is stupid. In fact, the way you came up with solutions seems to me to be rather intelligent.

What I am trying to say is that with the proper motivation you should be able to train your mind to overcome the chemical/physiological conditions that you feel are adversely affecting you, up to a point. Physical damage that causes impairment would be beyond such adjustments, but if a condition can be controlled with external means (drugs), then it can be controlled with the mind. I am not talking about subtle motivations; in some cases, the sort of motivation that affects such changes might be as extreme as to be life-threatening, but the results should be just as real as any pill, and probably more durable.

I am certain there are conditions that would pretty much force you to focus your mind long enough to allow it to adjust. It might not be very pleasant, but it is doable. Just as sure as there are conditions that would cause a normal mind to experience a psychotic break, or develop a schizophrenic reality. Pavlovian conditioning takes time and patience, but it unequivically works.

I have a grease pencil in my truck. I write myself reminders on the inside of the windshield.

Edit: when I'm not moving...

I do all these things too. If I need to remember to carry something with me in the morning, I put it right in front of the door, so I can't get out the door without either picking it up or tripping over it.

I constantly write on my hand too. Every day there's something written on my left hand. I also put stuff in the driver's seat of my vehicle so I don't forget it too.

My son has ADHD, and you'd be surprised. There IS some sort of physical problem, and they are using drugs to compensate. One of the "Interesting" tests they did on my son when he was like 3-4 years old. Get a large sheet of paper, and put it up on an easel in front of the child. Have them grasp a crayon, and try to draw a line UP the left side, across the top, and down the right side - one handed (no switching hands in the middle. Both up/down strokes are FINE, it's the "line across the top" that a LOT of ADHD kids fail, right where the line crosses the centerline of the body. There is a dificulty in the left and right hemisperes of the brain communicating. There is a structure in the brain (can't remeber the name right now) which connects the 2 hemispheres, and allows them to communicate. It doesn't WORK (in fact, they sent my son for a brain scan to make sure it's even THERE)

Now, generally, as a person with ADHD gets older, they learn to deal with it/learn coping mechanisms/partly to fully train themselves (as you said).

BTW It is thought (at least by some) that ADHD was a survival skill back in the hunter/gatherer day. As my son's pshycologist says "I have ADH...Hey, look, there goes a rabbit"

" but if a condition can be controlled with external means (drugs), then it can be controlled with the mind." Benjammin

Again, this simply is not true.

There are numerous brain chemistry and other brain disorders that cannot simply be "controlled with the mind", they require treatment by actual medical means.



JohnE

I don't think Benjammin was trying to suggest the drugs are useless but rather that way too many people seem to be diagnosed with ADD even if they might not have it or the symptoms are mild.

I mean, we all tend to forget and ignore stuff. People are lazy by nature and try to avoid hard work if possible (knowingly or subconsciously). My desk is pretty cluttered and I forget to pay a bill every now and then. But that doesn't mean I have ADD. It's just the kind of stuff that happens to everybody.

Now, I'm sure some people have a genuine condition that requires serious treatment. But the way things are right now half the kids are supposed to have ADD. Back when I was growing up in the 80's (heck, that's not even such a long time ago) we didn't even know it existed. I think it's way too often abused as a convenient excuse and there's the promise of an easy cure, just taking the right pill that will settle everying. But in a lot of cases, a more balanced lifestyle and taking personal responsibility would likely solve the problem for a whole lot of people whereas they pills might not.

It's called the corpus callosum. Sometimes they sever it surgically for uncontrolled seizure patients. makes for some really interesting clinical phenomena...

Thank you, that is what I remembered, but could not remember how to spell

About 25 years ago (more or less), dyslexia was the favorite excuse of the schools of why kids couldn't read or write properly. I read a while back that a teacher was talking to a doctor who diagnoses dyslexia (among other conditions), and he got a surprise.

Just curious, he asked the doctor how they diagnosed it. The doctor said that they would tell the parents to put the kids in a pure-phonics class for six months. If they improved, it wasn't dyslexia but the teaching methods the schools were using. This was years ago, and the schools are still using the same ineffective, archaic methods.

In truth, it is much more profitable for the schools to produce 'learning disabled' students, because they get more funds to deal with them. The fact that the schools are causing the problem obviously isn't an issue to them.

It's a good thing my mother taught me how to read, because the schools certainly aren't much good at it.

Sue

In the course of any year I see dozens of people inaccurately diagnosed with ADD, ADHD, Dyslexia, Major Depression, etc. While certainly there is great controversy regarding such diagnoses, more often than not what I see is inept diagnosis.

I have little regard for "rating scales" and checklists, regardless of who completes them. I have high regard for thorough psychological testing done by well trained practitioners using the proper instruments, properly. Such evaluations can be well done, and are well done all of the time. However, they take time and money. For instance, I don't see how a true, competent evaluation for Dyslexia (Specific Learning Disabilty)and/or ADD/ADHD could cost much less than $1,500. For some other diagnoses, $300 or more.

It is cheaper to use ADD/ADHD drugs and/or antidepressant medications to "diagnose". A wide range of non-specialist physicians can do so: If a person if given, e.g. Strattera, or Lexipro, and "gets better" this is somehow (IMHO unfortunately) considered diagnostic proof. To me, it proves little about diagnosis or specificity of the disorder. Plenty of people have them and don't respond much to medications. Some people who respond to the medications didn't have the disorders.

To me, the starting point is very careful evaluation using the best (granted, imperfect) tools we have at present. This is a self-serving post, I'll grant you: I make part of my living doing specialized psychological evaluations (including threat/risk assessments), treating people with the problems, and testifying as an expert witness. So I'm not pessimistic about what CAN be done to help. I'm often critical regarding what HAS been done. FWIW

At this point my son reads above grade level. Part of the diagnosis was a BUNCH of testing, not all of which I understood, but that 3 line test was among the tests

As for dyslexia, THAT I know a bunch about. My wife was diagnosed with dyslexia when she was a child. It actually turns out that it looks like she had dysgraphia, a similar problem but not the same. The interesting problem is that she basically can't hear the difference in pitch between 2 sounds - they can be 2-3 octives apart and she can't tell which is higher/lower in pitch. Mary has spent a lot of time research this, and being studied

I do have to be thankful that Mary had help when she was in Jr High. My best friend's mother was her writing tutor. My best friend actually brought her to a D&D session, where I met Mary, and the rest, as they say, is history

My friend's Mom became like a second Mother to Mary (Mary's mom was often semi absentee). We lost her this last September. We do have 2 great things to remember her by - her cats