Hey everyone,

I want to buy http://tinyurl.com/s25c7 for EDC, but I'm not sure if it is legal in Ontario, Canada. Is it?

It is legal, just like any other hunting knife.
The 3.5" blade length only applies to folders or concealed weapons.

That does not mean you can carry it into schools, offices, taverns or movie theaters. They have the right to set their own policies about what they allow on their property.

What does 'concealed weapons' mean? If you have it in a bag or something? Would people hassle me about it, even though its legal?

The quick answer is that the knife itself is legal, but how you carry it matters.

What 3.5" blade length, scafool? There's no reference to blade length in the Criminal Code, and a couple of months back I searched case law for any reference to blade length and found nothing. Is that just a local guideline? Do you know something I don't?

Dean, Canadian law for knives is actually very relaxed. The only laws specific to knives are those that prohibit automatic knives, any knife that opens by centrifugal force or gravity, and push daggers.

Other than that, knives are covered by general laws on carrying weapons. There are three provisions that really matter:

1. a weapon is anything designed for use, intended for use, or actually used to harm someone or intimidate them.
2. you may not carry a weapon for the purpose of committing an offence or causing a breach of the peace.
3. you may not carry a weapon concealed, period. (There's a provision for concealed firearms permits, but that doesn't apply here.)

So as you can see, everything hinges on whether the knife is a weapon, which is a matter of its design, your behaviour with it, and how a cop and the courts interpret your intent.

If you have a clear reason to carry that knife, e.g. carrying it openly while hunting or fishing, or carrying it home from the place of purchase, there would be no problem. Carry that same knife concealed in downtown Toronto, with the stated purpose of cutting string and tape, and you'd be in trouble.

What about carrying it in the sheath around a downtown area, or anywhere?

Thanks Andrew, I just looked and you are right.
Section 3 of the federal act listing prohibited weapons does not say anything about blade length, though it does specify some styles of knives.

I might have made a mistake, or it might be Provincial or municipal.
Either way I stand corrected and thanks for pointing it out.

However, Dean, people have been charged with prohibited weapons just for carrying a buck knife.
There is also a charge of "Possession of weapon for a purpose dangerous to public peace" which lets them charge you with anything as a weapon, even a folded newspaper, based on intent.

So think about what Andrew said at the end about how you carry, why you carry and where you carry that toad sticker.

Edit;
Maybe the best way to answer is say, "Ask yourself if you would stop you and question you if you were a cop."

I'm not in Canada, but I'd bet a lot of Canadian dollars that carrying a knife with an 8 inch blade "in the sheath around a downtown area" would cause you some problems.

The cops would look at whether you're carrying a weapon dangerous to the public peace. That's a question of how they interpret your intent, based on the context and your behaviour. The test is reasonability: would a reasonable person consider that knife appropriate to whatever you were doing?

Note that self-defence is not considered a valid reason to carry a weapon except under very limited circumstances.

Carrying that knife downtown would result in it being confiscated, and probably in charges.

Carrying that knife while hunting or fishing probably wouldn't raise any eyebrows -- unless you got involved in an altercation.

scafool's test is the right one: would you question it, if you were a cop?

A key point to remember is a knife is a tool, and not a weapon when questioned, in any area you may be in.
Edit, I guess I need to work more on making sure my sarcasm is more noticeable

It might be a good trick to convince the "downtown" authorities that a sheath knife with an 8 inch tanto blade, designed for "penetrating power" as Kabar ad itself says, is a tool and not a weapon.

Having been both a military cop and a civilian cop.....

Anyone not "in the field" for the military, and "out hunting/fishing" would have my undivided attention should I see that blade on their belt.

I carry a large fixed blade hunting/fishing, but it does not go onto my belt until I get to the field. That way I do not raise any eyebrows.

Wearing that in town, looks like a real good way to get free room and meals for at least one night (even in Texas).

Edit:
If a LEO happened up as you were removing it from the sheath to use in a legal manner, you might still wind up on the business end of his sidearm if not shot.
Stuff happens, I bet if I was the cop, I would at least draw if ANY other human beings were close enough for the knife holder to harm. Even though it was just a misunderstanding on my part.

Same here. I don't wear a fixed blade knife until the moment I'm to hit the trail.



How about an anecdote?

A few years ago, on one of my last backpacking trips, I happened to be waiting for a train in Ft. William, Scotland. One of the most beautiful places I've ever seen, though it was raining all day and all night. It's also the starting point for most trips into the Highlands, Ben Nevis itc. So all in all, a pretty popular place with backpackers looking for a taste of the Scottish outdoors.

As I was about to catch the train back, I noticed a bunch of Germans in their early 20's. Typical backpackers, only that one of them was proudly showing off a full-blown USMC Kabar, leather sheath, worn on his belt. In plain sight, in broad daylight. And in of the least knife-friendly countries on Earth!

I often wonder what happened to that guy. He was darn lucky insofar as the train station was pretty much deserted at that time of the day but I wonder what they did to him once his Kabar was spotted by some cop or security guy. At the very least I'm pretty sure he never brought that knife back to Germany...

90% of knife carry is demeaner. De meaner you look, de more people will react. Nobody is going to get upset over what they don't see. And those that somehow DO discover you have a knife on you will be less concerned if you carry a few other items is association to your peacefull purpose; an emergency whistle, flashlight, firemaking devise etc. VS a photo of the PM with a target drawn in red, Quebeca seperatist literature or an american hockey team logo'ed shirt.

Ok Chris, now that's just plain funny!

... american hockey team shirt...

Oh Yeah.....

You try going to a Montreal Canadiens home game wearing your Dallas Stars sweaters.

I have NEVER been so alone in such a crowded place in my life. Thank God I had a coat to wear to and from the game that covered it.

Chris's point about demeanor is probably the best advice. Picture two people at the post office, both have heavy envelopes they've just received. One is 18 and is wearing a puffy jacket and his hat on backwards. He whips out a balisong and spins it open. The other is 70 and wearing a plaid shirt. He reaches into his pocket for a Buck folder and slowly opens it with both hands. Which one do you notice and size up as a threat?

Why do you want to carry an eight inch Kabar in a downtown area? And as a 25 year old, I get "Because I want to." But what tasks can't you use a less threatening knife for? I'm an Army officer, but even in uniform, my goto knife is a Swiss Army tinker with red handles. Even though I generally carry two other knives much faster and easier to deploy. No-one, but no-one notices I carry the swiss army knife. They only ever notice when I draw one of the other two knives. Either with a "Cool, what's that?", or a "Damn sir, where'd you pull that from?" When I take out the swiss army knife, I might as well be pulling out a pen for all the notice it gets. What kind of attention do you want? And are the tasks you need that knife for worth that attention? Because a knife like that draws attention.

Something I do not understand is why a KABAR anyway? I won't go into it's pros and cons. But I must point out a Russell-Grohmann
is canadian made, and even a classic Hudson's Bay cruising axe is no less attention getting.

Mystique surrounding the name, price or like the one I started with...
Dad's combat knife from Vietnam.

As far as I know, there is no length restriction for knives in any jurisdiction in Canada. Type of knife - yes. Use of knife or intended used of knife - yes. Carrying a pocket knife even concealed is not likely to raise to many eyebrows, however a large knife that looks tactical carried in the open on the street will likely get at least a question or two from a LEO. Context of the knife is important, for example don't try to carry one into court! People have called for bans at drinking establishments where liquor can make people loose their inhibitions and where fights may break out.

This thread comes up often especially after a local knife killing or assault however in my area most knife deaths are from kitchen knives used during house parties and most often by a native on another native. That's a statistical fact however there are a lot of youth gangs that are getting stronger and more prominent in my area and they tend to have all kinds of illegal armament.

http://www.thestarphoenix.com/news/Police+board+seeks+targeting+knife+crimes/1089734/story.html
"Any discussion about restricting knife possession at the provincial level will have to recognize that criminal laws fall under federal jurisdiction, he noted.

The Criminal Code already contains several provisions against carrying knives.

For example, under Section 265, begging, accosting or impeding another person while openly wearing or carrying any weapon or imitation weapon constitutes an assault.

Section 90, which prohibits carrying concealed weapons, contains a carefully worded definition of weapons designed to allow for their legitimate use. In addition to knives that are commonly used in crime, such as switchblades, the definition includes steak knives or hunting knives -- if the prosecution can establish a knife was concealed because it was intended to be used as a weapon.

Under Section 90, hiding a weapon in a vehicle is the same as carrying a concealed weapon on a person.

Section 89 of the code also prohibits carrying any weapon while attending or "on the way to attend" a public meeting."

One of the things that struck me when I did my search of knife cases was how inappropriate the knives were.

People weren't getting done for carrying a concealed weapon for carrying a spear-point folder. They were getting done for carrying kitchen knives under their coats, or a filet knife in their sock, etc.

That should tell you how effective knife bans would be: not at all.

Kind of like banning sticks and stones?

Looking back, something still comes to mind...

Even though it is legal to carry, why would one need such a knife in an urban setting.

Here in Texas, if one takes and passes all the requirements for the Semi-Automatic Concealed Handgun License (CHL-SA) you are legal to cary ANYTHING that is legal to own as long as it stays concealed.

Having said that I see no true need to carry an M4 under a long overcoat, just as I seen no true need for my large fixed blade in town.

But that is me applying common sense.

Yup Desperado, I'd agree with that. I could understand keeping a big fixed blade knife in the car but actually carrying it on your person seems impractical and overkill.

In an urban setting, a decent folder is totally sufficient about 99% of the time. If you're a craftsman and fix stuff for a living then I could see how a good medium-sized utility fixed blade along the lines of a Mora would make sense. Kept in a toolbox with the rest of your tools I don't think it would cause any trouble at all. But why anyone would need anything bigger or more "tactical" than that is beyond me.

Becuase it feels good in the hand and the leather washer grip won't break even if you have to hammer on something with the pommel at -40?

That's just me, though. It is the right knife for Raven, that doesn't mean diddly squat for most folks. :P

Over the years in a wilderness setting I have found that a decent folder is totally sufficient 99% of the time.

I also carry a fixed blade however I cannot recall the last time I used it while out hiking or camping. Many times I have been tempted to leave the fixed blade at home, but it is like insurance, you never need it until you really need it...

Hmm, interesting. I've just been thinking about that again on my trek yesterday.

I carry both a folder and a fixed blade outdoors all the time. For my needs, I have never found a folder as good as a decent fixed blade. Especially as far as ergonomics. I do a lot of woodworking and no folder comes close to a Mora when you have to do some serious whittling. A somewhat bigger knife also has enough chopping power to fell small trees and branches for a lean-to. That's something no folder can match.

But I can understand how a "civilized" hiker who sleeps in a tent, cooks on a Coleman stove and never needs to do much woodworking could get away just fine with a strong folder.

I completely agree with you, TomL!!!!

+1 Tom.
All of the hunting knives I usually carry are fairly small.
If I am going into the deep greenery I might take an axe, saw, machete or combination of those with me if I intend to stay a while.

I find the "Survival" knives pretty much useless. They are not really big enough for serious chopping and are too big for most other chores. I have also noticed that if they have serrations on the blade they are near the choil, exactly where I don't want them.