Has anyone heard, read or have opinions on this? http://www.amerrescue.org/newsletter/tol.htm I found this site a few days ago, while hopping from website to website during some idle time at the office.

Basically in a nutshell, American Rescue Team International (ARTI) recommends that to survive a building collapse, it is better to be beside large objects than under them. They say the duck and cover techniques I've been taught all these years are wrong. Essentially when an edifice collapses, the structure falls on the larger objects crushing them, leaving a void next to it. This is where most survivors are located in these type of situations. They call it the "triangle of life". To me it seems logical, but I haven't heard anyone discuss this anywhere outside of this ARTI group and wondered what the group here thought. They are estimating that the survival rate of a collapse would be somewhere around 95%.

There is also a video of this demonstrated -> www.amerrescue.org/video/item12.rm

What ye think? Another nugget of knowledge?

Gee, that's an eye-opener. I would sure want to dive under the nearest heavy desk or cabinet, but this video is worth some more research. Wonder when this news blurb was done, and why we haven't seen anything about it? Or maybe I'm just out of the loop again! <img src="images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Thanks for sharing that.

Impressive !!!
and seems to make sense.


alain

I have heard that in an earthquake you should get under a door frame. Guess I might be squashed.

0--l-------< <----Flat ruzz <img src="images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

There are multiple types of building collapses:

Pancake, basically where floors dislodge from the wall structure and create a pancake like collapse, often seen in high-rise type buildings, parking garages. I have seen photos of the Mexico City earthquake showing several buildings collapsing in this fashion. Voids are not common and the sheer weight of the debris leaves little area for survival.

"V" collapses, where the floor(s) cave(s) in from the central area of the building, still or somewhat still attached to the wall structure. This type of collapse creates major void areas on either side of the "V". Survival is greatly enhanced in this type of collapse.

Cantilever collapses are similar to "V" collapse, in the creation of void spaces. This type of collapse occurs when a wall collapse and the floor(s) cantilever on one side. This type of collapse again creates survival areas.

Most office furniture is not designed to absorb all the impact and weight of a collapse and therefore hiding under them will generally not increase survivability. Survivors have been found near/next to office/household furniture as opposed to underneath the items.

Pete

Pete, you're right when you say most office furniture wouldn't offer protection. I'm sitting in my cloth-covered-wall cubicle, which has particle board countertops hanging from it. I don't think I'll be taking cover under there. I'd leave a smudge on the ground similar to ruzz, probably just a fatter smudge.

I have spent my past four years working and studying on tunnelling and trenching collapsed multi-storey buildings. I also have experiences from the site from two major earthquakes in 1999. All I can tell you is that your chance of survival is only luck and coincidance supported with steel nerves. I have seen people crushed by fridges or washing machines in one site and others which have been saved by furniture or kitchen appliances on the other one. Once we rescued a 86 year old lady from a pan-caked 7 storey building. The heavy wardrobe opened and fell on the bed she was lying covering the bed and leaving her unhurt. Just few blocks away I have found another casulty slammed to the wall with the washing machine. In another case we saw a collapsed dining hall with the roof standing on the tables. The roof fell down killing all those standing up and left the fallen ones un-touched.

The triangle of life is just a theory that would apply some cases. I wouldn't say it is wrong but neither would say is true in all cases.

There is never a real way or scientific explination to survive in building collapse. There are many variables in the equation. When you are hit by an EQ everything around you begins to move. You cannot run or walk properly and it is almost impossible to reach your target without being dis-oriented.

I have experienced after-shocks in collapsed or semi-collapsed buildings and all you can do is make yourself smallest possible and cover your head and don't move unless it is real certain that you can make it to outside.

In Golcuk (1999) one building collapsed 15 minutes after we finished our job in it. So knowing what is inside and seeing what state it becomes after collapsing I know there is no way I would survive.

In most of the buildings that did not collapse after a major EQ you find the contents of the house are fiercely smashed into walls and nothing stays where it is.

If you want to make a plan for surviving a collapsed building there is no major one that applies to most (not saying all).

Also the credibility of ARTRI is another question.

Hope nobody ever needs to try,

Burak Birhekimoglu MICDDS
Int. Rescue Officer British Civil Defence
TASK Team Ldr. and SRI Instructor Istanbul

In my original post, I deleted an off-handed remark about ARTI. I have been to their website many times over the past few years and have noted a self-serving, egocentric attitude. They appear to free-lance their response to incidents. As a member of a county/state technical rescuer team, I can state for a fact, that many well-meaning rescue teams, who take it upon themselves to respond to an incident, become more of a burden than help. On 9/11, our team was placed on standby, we remained so for one month, it was quite frustrating and stressful to play bridesmaid. But, we knew responding on our own was inappropriate and would only tax the Incident Command Structure unnecessarily. One of our team members is also a member of the Pennsylvania Task Force-1 FEMA team that did respond to NYC, he said that many of the outlying fire departments/rescue teams that responded on their own initiative caused a logistical nightmare, actually impeding rescue operations. While I do not often criticize those who whish to help in an emergency, I do have some criticism of the ARTI for their freelance approach. On many occasions of a scene, I and others have requested assistance from by-standers to assist in providing directions to other team members, help carry a patient down a trail, provide information and countless other jobs. But we gauge the needs, risks and benefits of these requests; having someone just start to help without being asked can endanger themselves, the patient and the rescuers. Pete

I completely agree with you. I have dealt with adventurist international teams over here and I know how the already damaged resourses and infra-structure are wasted by incapable but willing to help teams with very good intentions.

My boss in BCD once said "the road to hell is paved with stones of good intentions".

Burak

Great discussion folks! Reason why ETS is one of my daily habits.

I know that surviving a building collapse is a crap-shoot and it actually boils down to luck, planetary alignments, karma or whatever you may call it. Let's hope that none of us has to find our "triangle".