Do you construct them differently if you have a fire made vs if you dont?

Would you open up a shelter a little more to get the heat radiating to you, vs a really small entrance that you can cover up?

It depends if you have enough wood to last the whole night. If you are warming yourself just before sleeping with no intentions to maintain the fire all night, you'll want to keep the opening small. If you are planning to burn all night, and have a big pile of wood, you'll want to made the opening wider rather than taller to better trap the heat without losing so much. Also so you can crawl out easier if it catches fire

It is also important to make some sort of backstop for the fire to better reflect heat into the shelter using either stones or earth covered logs.

Or make it big enough to put the fire inside depending on what your building materials are.

Regards,

Tom

1. Do you need a fire for warmth, as opposed to many bodies in a well-insulated (thick) debris shelter?

2. If warmth from fire is critical to survival, I suggest you learn to make very small, relatively smokeless fires, develop a set of safe practices for one or more very small fires inside your shelter, and pull the door shut. Consider a small line of fire in a trench, etc. Focus a lot on insulating your self from the ground. Be sure you set some stones to capture and re-radiate heat, even after a fire goes out.

Large fires around debris shelters may be a recipe for disaster no matter how vigilant you are.

Since "Debris Shelters" by definition are built from flammable materials (dead leaves, cured dead wood), I am not going to build a fire inside of one.

I will:

1) Use a candle(s) to help warm it up before going to sleep.

2) Build a windbreak/heat reflector opposite side of the fire pit to reflect heat and light back into the hut.

3) Heat up rocks (if there are any there) before bedtime to line the hut with.

4) Bank my fire before crawling into the hut so I don't have to exercise my Fire Escape & Extinguishing plans while I'm trying to get some sleep!

I basket weave smaller diameter sticks among several larger young trees (saplings) and larger vertical limbs in a semi-circular pattern. I'll work the weave up at least 3 feet, higher if the materials are available.

Evergreen trees such as pine or cedar are excellent horizontal materials as their needles help close up the gaps in the weave.

I never forget that my family, like USCG Cutters, have always done 2 things too well,,,,,burn and sink!!

Fire would be for warmth, no other people just me. Temps 10-15 degrees, snow covered ground in the midwest.

Initially I was thinking of a long fire with a reflector behind it and a low lean to.

Then got to thinking of jamming a small hut with as many leaves and grass as possible and squirreling up.

I've done that and it does work, you will find that the side away from the fire will get colder. I saw once someone use a space blanket as the "roof" of their lean to. They claimed that with a reflected fire in front and the blanket reflector above/behind them they were a lot warmer. I haven't tried it but it seems like it should work.

two fires and sleep between them..if you have the wood make the reflector big.i have seen photos from the 1900's and these guys had the logs shoulder high in front of a lean to.if you have no way to make a fire i would say a snow shelter packed with leaves or dry rush,grass would be your only hope..and don't count on sleeping much in that sort of sitution. the best book i have read on winter camping is "paradise below zero" by Calvin Rutstrum. because the book is somewhat old you will not find anything about space blankets or gor-tex.just how they did it in the old days.

Back in the day, people who slept like this used wool, animal hide/furs, canvas etc that do not burn as easily.

Don't use this method with today's synthetic shell sleeping bags. If you are lucky, you may wake up in the morning with several burn holes on the exterior shell of the bag from fire sparks. If you are not so lucky, you will wake up very, very warm in the middle of the night and have the scars to prove it....like I do.

Ray Mears again showing how to construct a debris shelter des res for more than 1 person with the fire in the middle to keep everyone toasty warm.

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=QTBJJsgUsG8&feature=related

Couple of thoughts:

1) I would be leary of putting a fire too close to a debris shelter because of the fire hazard and the fact that I would also be using the fire to cook. Not a good idea to have food scents too close to sleeping area.

2) Having the fire a safe distance from the opening to the shelter with a good wind break might be advisable.

3) Heating rocks, or aluminum water bottle, enclosed candle, putting coals in a pot, etc might be options to warming the inside of a well constructed shelter.

Then again, I will readily admit that I've never spent the night in a debris shelter yet, so my tune may change as I freeze my tilly-tail off...

Food scents are all over your body regardless of where you cook and you not will fool Mr. Bear any easier by cooking away from your shelter. And yes bears do sometimes come out of hibernation in winter looking for food. Maintaining a bare and clean campsite is crucial and will go a long way in preventing any midnight visits.

Also it is still a good idea not to cook or leave a fire burning in your shelter if it is made of mainly dry wood and debris.



Heating rocks in a covered cast iron fry pan over a campfire then placing the pan into the tent on a solid and stable piece of wood = a nice warm night. I did this every night in the cooler months when I lived in a tent out in the woods and beside a river for almost 9 months years back.



Most likely many tunes will change...:)

That's why you use sheets of bark from a fallen tree instead of dry leaves or grass to cover the shelter. The bark is a lot less prone to catch fire. In the areas I camp, there are often fallen trees that you can peel the bark off in sheets with use of a hatchet or machete. Any loose dry stuff goes under me for insulation. I usually take a wool blanket which is adequate to arrest any sparks that come from the fire. I don't build a huge fire, and being conscious of the wind direction and where you place your shelter can largely mitigate the spark hazard.

When my friends and I go primitive camping, each of us has a small canvas tarp about 7' X 9'. When there's four or so of us, we'll throw up a small wigwam and put the fire inside. One of those tarps and two wool blankets is usually adequate in pretty cold weather. If there is less than four, we'll pitch a three sided lean-to with the fire in the middle.

Tom

I wonder if making a fire bed then once the dirt is on building a debris shelter over it is feasible? I guess it depends on whether you have the time to put both of them together? Seems like the best of both worlds though.

On paper and for demonstration purposes, firebeds look good. The problem is when you really need one, the firbed will be made under less then idea conditions and materials. These factors may mean that the firebed though dug down and covered still emit smoke and gas from the wood smoldering. Trying to sleep on top of this with your lungs and eyes burning from the smoke and gas makes for a real sleepless night....There are much better ways of keeping warm with fire then this method.

Our weather will be below zero in the next few days, and warming up to 15 deg by the time I am in the field. The only tools I will have are a folding knife, and a contractor trash bag. I will carry a gortex bivy and bag as a back up.

We will have one good fire going all night long away from the shelter.

The ground is frozen solid. I will have access to snow, leaves, grass, and some bark. Very few conifers. I carry a messenger bag with me at all times and I want to test living with it alone for 2 days.

I am thinking build up a large bed to get me off the ground and fill the contractor bag with insulation.

Depending on the material I may try a fire in/near the shelter.

Anyhow thanks for the tips I will post an AAR after.

Fire beds, like desert sills and tree wells, look really, really spiffy on paper. But how much time was spent setting that up? Now lets try it in sub-zero weather, with a few feet of snow on it. Heck, let's just try it with hard frozen grown. You're digging a shallow grave, then building a fire at the bottom of it.... yeah....

I would do it differently. But you also don't say where you are- I do snow, lots of snow, freezing rain, and so cold the whimpering on your jacket is the thermometer zipper pull wanting to come in where it is warm. *laughs*

I'd do a snow trench, and use the debris under it and on supports to make a roof. Then do a cul de sac a few feet away with a platform for a small fire, which is used for heating water to go in the bottles. Those go in the shelter with me.

Sounds like fun, but if this is your first attempt at survival shelter building, given the conditions you describe I would suggest having more of a back up plan than a bivy / bag (hot hands , tarp, space blanket, tent, that type of thing). Probably wouldn't need it but if you did, you'd really need it.

If conditions deteriorate dramatically, you may not have the luxury of first time mistakes...we all make them that's how we learn.

Give yourself a cushion to make the lesson less painful.

The rest of the gang here would probably tell me to chill out and quit worrying ("you sound like my mother").

Nah Samhain, I was thinking the same thing. For a first time in the ideal conditions listed, I think there needs to be a plan B.

The cost of no plan B can indeed be very high.

Thanks for the concern. Not my first time building shelters. First attempt at sleeping overnight in one with out my bag and bivy. I will be with guys who are trained in this and that have medical training.

I may end up not sleeping much and doing a lot of burpees but thats ok. We will have a central fire going.

I am in the Midwest US. 6 inches snow low of 10 deg.

Sitting in that tree stand for 12 hours waiting for the perfect deer kind of gets me prepared for dealing with the cold.

I think Desperado has a point.
Being in the tree stand for 12 hours just gets you cold to start with.
Being with buddies helps.
Having plan B(back up) might save your life.

Plans C, D, E, F, G and Z might not hurt either.

In other words don't go putting yourself into a survival situation just to practice survival skills.

Try this somewhere that you can go get warm if it does not work the first time.

I once learned in the army that there was no need to practice being uncomfortable. Uncle Sam will make you uncomfortable soon enough.

To this end, my family "trains" next to or near a 40' 5th wheel that makes for nice shelter if plan A fails miserably. One night spent awake because the shivering would not let me sleep taught me two things: Build a better shelter; Always have plan B.

Ok,

Backups will be my bag and bivy.
One central fire burning all night long, with a wind break and reflector.
Hot water next to the fire
My car 10 min walk, 5 min run away.

this is a good time for a "lets try it out" story..back in the 70's i knew some guys who wanted to try Real Winter Camping..they went up to the canoe park in Northern Minnesota and skied back into one of the lakes to camp. it went down to 30 below that nite..none of the gear kept them warm even with doubled up sleeping bags..they were up most of the nite sitting around a huge fire. next AM back at the car they had to put pans of hot coals under the oil pan to start the car..ice fisherman do camp out up there but they take big tents and wood stoves..
it's 6 below right now..i don't have any plans to go anywhere.
think desert in reverse---

OK, you seem determined to do this, so...

Leave the door of your car unlocked.
Your hands might get cold enough that your find it really hard to turn a key in a lock. I have seen people that near to frozen and have been there once myself.
(besides, if anybody shows up intending to break into your car they will just bust a window out whether it is locked up or not)

If you start shivering end the experiment right then, that is the first stage of freezing to death.

If your weather conditions include 6 inch of snow then constructing a Quinzee snow shelter might be an idea.

It might be worthwhile watching Ray Mears Extreme Survival - Arctic Episode for some tips.

All is well.

The day started out 9 am in single digits, warmed up to mid 20s. Then at night it dropped to about 15. We did 3 lean 2s with a fire in the middle. No bag, no bivy. Just about 6 inches of marsh grass, and a contractors bag.

Our site was out of the wind which raged about 15-20 mph all day.

Got cold at night, when the fire died down, especially being on the ground. Just got up, added wood to the fire, drank some hot water, then repacked the tin can with snow and tried to sleep again.

Did you get much sleep? Take turns tending the fire?

I am very glad to hear it went well.
I am quite glad you did not have to run to the car or need help.
Very, very glad you had alternatives in case it did not go well.

Not quite so happy you didn't sleep well.

One night of bad sleep is no big deal, but more than two and you are likely to be sleep deprived and not functioning nearly as well as you should be.


What would make it better?

I don't know what your fire was like.
One of the tricks I learned years ago was to put some fairly big pieces of green wood in the fire (shepherd stove) and let it become extra fuel as it dried out.
It made for a more smokey fire and sooted/creosoted the stove pipes but it gave a more even heat through the night.

Some people I know like to build their fire on top of a couple of green logs.
As the fire burns it cooks the logs dry and starts to burn in the crack between them.
It might work for you guys too if you are not already doing that, worth a try anyhow.

When you say swamp grass do you mean the round hollow pith filled stems like cat tails, or the sedges?
(Rushes are the round ones, the sedges have edges.)
These are great insulators and if you have some cord a lot of them can be beaten into a sword mat to use as a blanket fairly quickly.

A trick an old friend had when hiking in the fall was to carry a flat sown bag, It was just two old bedsheets stitched up the sides and bottom. He would stuff it full of grasses and leaves then use it as a cover.
He tended to choose spruce trees with fairly low branches to sleep under and would make quite a pile of dead needles to lay his tarp on before bedding down on it.
I tried this a few times and it works fairly well, maybe not as nice as a lean to and fire, but doable.
(more modern materials like light nylon instead of cotton bed sheets should only make it work better.)

Again, If you try this make sure you have a safe out from it if it does not go well the first try.

And I was quite worried from your earlier description that you would only have wet soggy leaves to work with.

Not much sleep I would say 2-3 hours max. Whoever was up tended the fire.

What would make it better?

We had a long fire 3-4 feet long, and dragged larger pieces of wood into it as they burned. We underestimated the amount of wood we would need. Tons nearby and was easy to collect with moonlight and snow on the ground. Good idea with the green wood.

The grass was near the creek bottoms, thigh high, looked like wheat. did not see any cattails or rushes.

I have a nylon tarp I made from Walmart, that I have grommeted I have used as a bag before, but for this I wanted to do with out.

All I had was a contractors bag, I filled it with grass but it kept the radiant heat of the fire off me, so I laid on it.

The 15 below temps the day before took care of our soggy leaves.

The wind was crazy and one thing we could have done better is channel it so it would not curl into some of the lean 2's. About 4am it switched to the North and the temps dropped. We got about 1.5 inches of snow, the snow the cold ground made for restless sleep.

Practiced self splinting a broken leg, Land Nav skills utm coordinates, Fire starting many times, using a signal mirror, snares, collecting and treating water etc. All those perishable skills you should keep up on.

Was a good test of using things I have with me at all times and what I would change or add.

Sounds like you did alright. You learned a lot and thats what these types of exercises are all about. Just remember, there will always be the "armchair experts" who will attempt to second guess everything you did...or did not do.

I think most make their shelters too large and "roomy." I've seen a few that you could sit up in. This isn't a tent. You need them snug so they hold in your body's heat. When you make the frame, make it so small it's difficult to get into, and then lay on the debris, like boughs and leaves - at least 3 feet thick, preferably more. Don't forget a thick layer of debris inside the shelter to lay on and insulate you from the cold ground.

JHlewis, just a few more thoughts.

One of the things I used to go to were small hippy style gatherings.
(a gathering of people, and a gathering of wild herbs, no money allowed but plenty of trading going on, usually more than 5 miles from a road.)
These gatherings were often in the spring and fall, depending on what was being gathered.

So not bitterly cold, but still cold enough at night that a person could die of exposure if they were not ready for it.
Usually heavy dew.
Chilly enough for frost some times. Quite often often wet and rainy.
A person would not be able to sleep well for sure unless they were well prepared for camping out.

We would usually have quite a few youngsters from the cities show up with no proper gear for sleeping out. No tents, no tarps, maybe a crappy blanket.

So we used to put up a tarp for rain protection throw some mats and blankets down to cover the ground and get them to do what we called a "love pile."

After the first chilly night they got the idea.
A mass of 10 or 15 bodies gave them enough warmth to make it through the night OK even if there was heavy frost.
The more kids in the pile all the better.
(Dogs give off a lot of heat too, but you end up smelling like them.)

If it was windy at all we would hang some tarps as wind protection for them.

At one Gathering we put up a large tarp tepee for the kids with a small fire altar in it to warm them, but it was not as good.

Not only could we not fit enough of them into it for a pile up, the ones we could fit in stayed up all night stoking the fire, bongo drumming and chanting.
Then they all wanted to sleep all day when it warmed up instead of learning about herbs by helping to gather them.

Both the ones who had been in the tepee because they had partied all night and the ones outside because they had stayed awake shivering around camp fires all night.

Yup, the late 70s, the 80s, and the early 90s were fun Big Daddy.

(Then hydroponics happened.)

...and vice versa

Regarding reflectors:

I was out trapping cats in a wetland area, and came across someone's campsite (probably homeless). It looked like a canvas tarp that had been formed into a pup-tent-type shelter with one open end, with a fireplace in front of the opening. Instead of the regular flat log reflector, they had made a V-shaped reflector of branches coated with mud (each leg of the V about three feet long, or almost). The fireplace was in the V, the opening aimed at the opening in the tent.

I had never seen this kind of reflector design, but gave them full marks for creativity, and I suspect that it might act as a pretty good windbreak, too.

Sue

Odd that you mention that they were likely homeless.
I have noticed a quite a few good tricks the homeless people use.
For a lot of them cities are very hostile environments, even worse than a desert.
In the city I live in now there are a number of homeless people who sleep out at temperatures in the -20 and below range.

Some of them are true experts about stealth camping in the concrete jungle.
Not only do they have the regular bush craft problems coupled with a lack of equipment, they need to avoid attracting the attention of police who will hassle them or the violent punks who might kill them just for fun.
Count with that the fact that as soon as the city or the businesses people figure out where homeless people are sleeping they take steps to remove that option.

It goes far beyond just sleeping on a park bench or under a bridge, and some of their solutions are quite brilliant