Alright, I'm thinking up a new angle to come at survival. Basically an improved 'shirt on your back' sceneario. So you don't have to carry all that gear. What you lack in preparation, you make up for in resorcefullness and add libbing. Instead of trapping or hunting you gather plants and stuff. You relly on shelter more than fire (I put this in because it is impossible for me to make a fire without a lighter or matches. But I'm 16 and dont have money or a liscence [yet!] and can't get to them.) I'm still adding to it. And welcome any suggestions...(Nudge nudge, wink wink <img src="images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> )

Hi Ruzz,

You said, .

I think in a survival situation, that is what you would have to do. Thats what I am trying to avoid as much as possable. If you are not prepaired, you had better be very resorcefull.

Knowledge is the best tool, and with a little effort it is free. If the best tools on the market are out of reach, then go with a lesser tool that still works.If the plan is to be resorcefull in a survival situation, now would be a good time to start practicing your resorcefullness in getting prepaired.

So when you say "Alright, I'm thinking up a new angle to come at survival." I think you are already practicing your resorcefullness in getting prepaired. At least you are thinking about it. Which is a heck of a lot more than alot of people are doing about it.

Good luck,

Neal

Yeah, I have noticed the preparation or lack thereof department. I do have alot of the latest tools and stuff (knives, night vision etc) but I'm trying to find out my own personal way of doing things. I can make my own bows and arrows, knives and can repair many basic hand tools. I look at preparation as a stream lining of yourself. Like many things you have to be balenced, but most survivalists are leaning towards the preparation. What'd ya think of my more herbivorious idea, the local squirrels and turkeys are certainly happy! <img src="images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

As has been pointed out many times, your brain is the most useful survival tool you have. You should sharpen it daily.

Ed

Ruzz,

I believe that if you go anywhere near the wilderness without a knife and a lighter then you are asking for trouble. Know how is essential but there is a minimum level of preparedness that you should make into a habit.

I teach primitive firemaking to people mainly to emphasize the point that you need to carry the means to make fire. Carry a knife of some sort. A knife is basic equipment for planet earth. Mac

Ruzz,

I had a lot of similar ideas, and some much further-out ideas, at about your age. Not sure exactly what survival scenario you're personally concerned with, but...

I strongly suggest you try it, under controlled circumstances.

Set up a "camping" or "backpacking" trip somewhere where you can easily bail out, or take equipment that you plan NOT to use. Make it at least three days.

I'm guessing you'll come back with a "Still Newer Survival Philosophy" from the experience, but it's not my journey of discovery, it's yours, and my guess may be wrong. For sure, though, the time to find out is when you have a solid "plan B" available.

Still, don't let anyone MY age convince you not to even try. As Heinlein said, "It's amazing how much "mature wisdom" resembles being too tired."

P.S. - Be very careful with the wild plant thing. I'm a cautious sort by nature, and I THOUGHT I was being very careful, and I nonetheless had a very bad experience with it.

Let's take things in order,

Scenarios

Are you trying to prepare for mostly urban situations or are wilderness situations involved? Do you travel to / through / over truely wilderness areas where you might be unexpectedly deposited and isolated? Do your urban situations include truely inner-city urban, suburban residential, industrial / commercial?

It is one thing to survive in a suburban residentail environment with the "shirt on your back" type of preparedness. One can always find an abundance of material for expedient improvisation in a dumpster or un-garded backyard shed.

You can make a knife? I don't doubt that but what has it got to do with a 72 hour emergency survival scenario? If your scenario would be improved by having a knife then you won't have that benefit. Making even a lousy knife will require materials, tools and time that you won't have in the scenario. - this is equally true for all metal tools and most others. I don't doubt that you could unravel the bottom of your jeans and come up with decent fishing line - by day 2 ( but of course you would have to sacrifice some of your jeans to do this and it would be hard without the knife.)

Depending upon the vegetation for sustainence is also scenario dependant. There are few botanists who would be comfortable thinking that they could forage successfully everywhere. The herbivorous wildlife are often brought to extinction due to lack of a particular food which they depend upon. Not everything is edible to everyone. Know your habitat and what grows in it and you can certainly survive on foraging. If your survival situation finds you in a different neighborhood or climate all of the plants will be unfamiliar and you may starve or poison yourself. The beauty of eating things that you have to chase down is that they are almost all edible and they do a decent job of processing the edible foliage that is found wherever you might be. Trust the local wildlife to know what is edible to them. A cow can live on straw but if you try that you will starve - a Goat can eat poison ivy and thrive but it will kill you dead; OTOH if you find a goat or cow that is thriving you don't really care what it is eating - shoot it in the head and chow down! (of course that implies you are carrying a gun and a knife at minimum and it would be helpful if you had fire to cook with as well).

In any situation where you are dealing with social unrest / collapse (such as followed hurricaine andrew or might be found in LA on any given day), a "shirt on your back" situation becomes a practice in Escape and Evasion. Unless you are part of one of the organized (read police or gang) groups or are extremely well armed your chances lie in being unseen, unnoticed, unremarkable in that order.

In a commercial / industrial situation including HazMat there is often no adequate preparation. Having goggles / n95 or better face-mask might help but short of SCBA gear you will probably be SOL.

In building collapse situation a whistle on the key-chain could mean that you are the one who is dug out first. Having leather gloves could mean that you are able to save some of your cube-mates.

In a wilderness situation there is no making metal tools. If you don't have a knife you probably won't be making wooden tools either. In wilderness, if you don't have knife you will be reduced to shelter and fire. And you won't have fire unless you practiced before hand. Friction fires are not easy to create. If you pin your hand behind a large stone and don't have a knife your vulture food.

There is a great deal to be gained by having the knowledge to enable you to improvise. But without the wisdom to know the limits of improvisation you are only setting yourself up for a nasty surprise.

My approach to streamlining my EDC is to carefully consider the possible scenarios for any given adventure and carry what is required for that adventure plus a minimalist set of gear that will help if something unexpected happens. If I am carrying something for the adventure that would be redundant with some of that minimalist gear, I consider leaving one of them behind.

So what am I carring today.

Scenario is commute through rural / suburban / residential / industrial to 1 storey office building in suburban / rural fringe zone to sit at a desk all day.

Altoids PSK in front Left
Altoids FAK in fron right
100' flat spool of twine in back left
wallet in pack right
Cell phone on Left hip
Leatherman Wave on right hip
whistle on each separatable section of my keychain along with swiss-tech utili-key and swisstech microtool+ and ASP saphire light
2 Butane lighter
Another mini-multitool with pliers, file, LED light, Blade, Screw-Driver.
Book of matches and pack of smokes.

I have carried atleast this for the past 2 years and I don't even find that I notice it. I rarely get more attention for this gear than I get for my 3 inch long beard or my fedora. I am able to carry this and more if I am in a suit. In a jeans and tee-shirt I am limited to only those four pockets and my belt.

If you think that is a lot you should checkout my vest gear, which I wear whenever it will be cool (temperature not style) enough.

I'd like to offer a quick second to whay P.L. just said. Definitely have a Plan B when trying new ideas out. For a prime example of just how steep the learning curve can be, esp. concerning wild plants, you should read "Into The Wild" by Jon Krakauer. It describes a young man's minimalist attempt to brave the Alaskan wilds. Even using an extremely comprhensive plant guide he confused two plants, one edible, one deadly, and met his fate. There are several other stories of fellows who made similar attempts and met similar ends in the book. All of the stories are non-fiction.

Ed

Thank you very much for the analysis. I would most likeley be in a rural area broken up by farms roads towns etc. Now that I think of it, I don't have enough plants memorized to really do good on. I could eat crops if I came on to them, or plantains or burdock roots but thats about it. Grasses dont ofer enough filler and dandelions dont taste good and have too much pollen. Oh, and I do have a knife, several actually but since I am always on my parents farm grounds and within walking, or even limping distance of my house I dont carry them except in the winter where I have a metal match and knife in my coat. I will start carrying them around all the time. Can you give me some help on primitive fire starting methods? I have tried everything I can to accomplish fire but just cant. I heard you have to use carbon steel when you use steel and flint. But can seem to find any. I cant really have a lighter or matches unless I filch them from somewhere. If I could make fire that would single handedly put me on a much more omnivorous diet. I am really adept at catching fish; spear, bowfishing, angling, or noodling. I will also have to try the survival weekend idea. Thanx.

No no, I'll listen to you. I pride myself on being ahead of my generation because I have learned to listen to more experienced people, even when I dont understand them. But in this case it makes sense. What were your further out ideas?

[confused / amused]So, let me get this straight, You live at home and they will let you walk about with a decent fixed-blade knife but they won't allow you to carry fire making tools? How young are you? Am I missing something here? Are you a convicted pyromaniac? Have you ever built / started / cooked on a campfire?[confused / amused]

Anyway, get a bic lighter. If you go to school / get into town to help your pop pick up some feed / hitch a ride and run away (or all of the above), spend the buck and buy a real live bic lighter and while you are paying ask the clerk for a couple of books of matches. Carry the matches in a zip-lock baggie or equivalent. Don't set your pop's crops on fire!

For friction fire you will be best off with a bow drill. It's not easy or really fun but it is fairly reliable once you get the hang of it. All you need to carry is a metal top from a soda / beer bottle a decent length of twine (boot laces work) and a knife. With practice you will be come to know the good woods in your area for working with. Check out the web, there are lot's of sites like this that make it look easy. The important thing to remember is that both ends of the drill will get hot so you need that bottle top as a pivot point at the top. If you count on spinning the drill with your hands instead of the bow you will get warm but not from the fire. You will probably wear yourself out before you get fire.

For flint fire with a real flint you may need special steel but I wouldn't really know where to find real flint and real flint doesn't give that good a spark anyway. Get the sparking rods like the swiss fire-steel or the BSA spark and any decent knife and you should be good to go. It is more about the tinder than the spark. If you place an end of the spark rod in the tinder and scrape downward on the rod you should peel off some burning sparks into the tinder. If the tinder is dry and flamable then you will have fire.

If you really want trouble take the 9 volt battery out of the smoke detector, grab a steelwool from the kitchen or shop (- make sure it isn't impregnated with soap like a brillo or sos pad) and just jam the 9 volt, business end first, into the steelwool and it should get extremely hot. Once started you won't see flame but it will start fires very well. If you carry a PAL emergency light (9-volt led light) you will have both light and heat until your battery goes dead.

Don't burn you pop's crops!

Do I sense a hidden indignation to 16 year old farmboys? <img src="images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> I actually knew about the 9 volt batter and steel wool technique when I was in 7 grade. But I forgot about it. Thanx for reminding me. But once I almost caught my backpack on fire when I put them together in the same compartment. Oops, anyone hot in here, lets open the windows! <img src="images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> I will try to get to town but I have to go a mile out of the way to get to a bridge to crosss the river, but I will try. OTOH I will just ask my parents for a lighter because the last time I asked I was 8 and was actually asking for an acetylene torch. <img src="images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> I have made many a fire, so don't get me wrong. I have even split water to produce hydrogen gas and am currently making a firearm using hydrogen instead of gunpowder. Making a fire out of it shouldnt be too hard. Oh yeah, currently my dads crops are all just little seedling which are hard to make into any conflagration, thank you. <img src="images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Sorry if I offended. I was confused as to why your folks would trust you with knives but not fire - didn't make sense to me. Any hidden indignation is rather jealousy. Been a long time since I could spend my days working projects and hiking the fields. I've been stuck in a desk for 20+ years and only get out on weekends (and then I have to drag my young-uns out with me <img src="images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> )

Yeah thier reasons escape me too. I have made several small fires in secret at night in the winter time, but nothing serious. If you really want to hear indignation and nonacceptance (from the exact hypocrites who profess to have sooooo much) you should bring the fodd you hunted/gathered. What do those people have against living off the land? Anyway, I took your advice and must thank you. Thank you! I nabbed a lighter that was lying around forgoton (mint condition too!) went down in back by the river, gathered some dead cornstalks and mashed them all up (these work extremely well) 1 flick of the lighter and I had a fire going. Baleing twine works well too, when you fluff it all up. I learned that muddy sticks smolder ALOT, even if they are dry (probably because of the flood) and you should have your kindling and stuff ready before lighting up. Now how do you cook with these things? Something with coals, right? I also started thinking aboutmaking a PSK.

Baleing twine in our area is made of orange plastic, is this the same stuff you're talking about?

Nope. I mean the more fabricy stuff. Natural, I think the word is.

I bought a couple of pieces of real flint in a shop for muzzle loading supplies. I used an old triangular scraper as steel. It worked ok. As minime said, the spark is pretty weak. You need special tinder (e. g. char cloth for it). The artificial flint rods are by far superior to that and the required items take less space.

Sorry, I haven't been on in awhile.

>> What were your further out ideas?<<

My generation was prone to a lot of delusions about "living of the land", the idea that you could just walk out into the wilderness and stay, inspired by books from people like Euell Gibbons and Bradford Angier, and a sort of printed proto-web called "The Whole Earth Catalog". Things were different then, and information was a lot harder to come by than it is now.

I made some modest attempts at using wild foods, until a painful episode killed a lot of my curiosity about it. For a while something called "spirulina", a refined blue-green algae, was being promoted as "the perfect food" and it was thought that you could backpack for weeks carrying nothing else but these pills, made, essentially, of pond scum. I tried to live off them for a week, but after four days I couldn't stand the smell, and couldn't bring myself to swallow them anymore. We made tipis (that leaked) from surplus parachutes (probably, in retrospect, risking a very painful death by burning), and hiked through the woods wearing imitation "buckskin" leather-fringed jackets and drinking from leather wineskins, and thought we were somehow getting "back to nature". We learned to make atl-atls and bolos, sandals and mocassins, and I had a friend who went all winter, though the snows, barefoot.

Silly as it seems now, I don't regret any of it. I learned a lot, and I'd rather have to wade through lots of ideas, the vast majority of which don't work, than have the ideas suppressed before they can be tried.

Cool, or maybe 'psycodelic'! I gave my new fire starting skills and survival pack a test flight and they worked ok, but I need some way to procure water? What did you guys do for that? My best bet is to boil it, but I only have a small pan.

Well, as I said, things were different back then...

Mostly we used iodine tablets, usually military surplus versions of Potable Aqua- when we used anything. At least one guy ("crazy Chester") refused to drink water unless it had been mixed with grain alcohol for hours.

To be honest... and I'm NOT recommending this... until the late '70s or so, we pretty much drank straight from springs anytime, and from streams if we were certain that there were no camps or houses upstream. I wouldn't do it now, but I never got sick, nor did any of the people I was with. We only used the iodine tablets when there was doubt about the source. Hadn't even heard of giardia at that point, and there were large sections of wilderness that had no other people at all, not even hikers, all year round.

Camping was more unusual then than it is nownow, and it was a little looked-down-upon as something done by people too poor to even afford motels. Backpacking was very unusual until 1968 or so, and grew fairly slowly from then. Everything was a lot less crowded.

These days I carry a Katadyn filter and iodine as a backup. Boiling takes up time and fuel, and that interferes with making progress down the trail. I almost never make open fires, because of the fire scars, and the difficulty of being absolutely sure it's out and won't spread, and the night blindness, and advertising the campsite to anyone for miles around, and...

I drank from a stream when I was a little kid once and didn't get sick. But since then I have learned not to. I have heard that a couple drops of clorox will also help clean it out. I'll nab some Iodine tablets the next time I see them though. Isn't there a way to make a more 'tactical' fire, harder to see?

if you burn charcoal in a charcoal stove it will be very hard to spot. Haven't found directions on the web to construct one, yet. ( apperently you can make them from old cans )

any variation on this will be rather tactical during the day from a light perspective. Anyone within smelling distance can recognize the smell of fire rather quickly regardless of what you are burning. At night using a small fire in a container such as this in a wooded dell would be mostly hidden from view but again the smell of fire is distinctive and would carry. Small fires such as this won't make much visible smoke. In a true E&E scenario you should forgo wood fire completely and use fueled fire sparingly. An alcohal stove such as the trangia or soda-can stove would be much more stealthy but less easily created from expedients.

For stealth use shelter rather than fire for warmth and chemicals rather than boiling for sanitation. Fire is not stealthy. Fire is visible, smells distinctive, isn't naturally occuring, leaves tell-tale signs that are detectable after you have moved on, etc. Fire is extremely helpful and should be something you are always capable of but it is also not appropriate in an E&E scenario. I would revise this if you are in an urban / industrial setting. In scrap lots, junk/yards, and other urban settings where hobo's and homeless gather you could get away with setting up a decent fire and camp right along with the other squatters and you would be as inconspicous as they. Of course then you would have to deal with them.

Sure, you can make a smaller fire, and hide it in a number of ways- shield it, 3 sides and bottom with large rocks, with the "downsides" to the fire, then replace them where they came from, that way there's no visible fire scar, and the light is somewhat contained. It also helps to finish cooking before dark and put it out early...

But most of the disadvantages still apply. It can still be smelled a long way downwind, and it still kills your night vision after dark, and someone who's used to the woods will still spot the the remains. Open fires are just never going to be very "stealthy".

If you're intent on using natural materials to cook with, you might look into building a hobo stove. It costs nothing, and is far more efficient than an open fire for cooking anyway- and you'll use much smaller sticks etc, so it vastly reduces the chore (and signs) of accumulating firewood.

Or, if you're open to using alcohol, just google "alcohol stoves" and there are lots of new designs for lighweight, homemade versions that reportedly work very well. I guarantee you'll have a lot more time for other things using a stove. Building and tending fires takes time, and is better suited for staying in one place.

If you are primarily interested in keeping the fire from begin seen, you could dig a hole and build a small fire in the hole. That, plus maybe the dirt from the hole piled up around the hole, would contain most of the light shining out to the sides. There would still be the light shining upwards, so you'd want to be careful about what is nearby or overhead that could reflect the light. This would include the skin and clothing of anyone around the fire.

Having your fire in a hole or pit also has the advantages of reducing the wind blowing on the fire, and it contains the fire so you don't have the concerns about the fire getting out of control.

When you break camp, you just extinguish your fire and fill in the hole. If the fire has not been allowed to burn itself out, and your fire pit was not dug in sand or rock, be sure to put the fire out THOROUGHLY before burying it. You wouldn't want something underground to smolder and spread somewhere and start a fire.

If you are going to want to disguise the pit after it's filled in, you might consider digging it in a place where you can move and then replace natural features such as rocks and logs. After filling the pit, put the rocks back as they were when you got there. Use your imagination. You might also want to read an Army survival manual. I have a 1970 edition of FM21-76, and it is excellent.

Smoke can give you away, even if the smell does not. Be sure to use really dry wood and add it slowly.

If you want a smokless fire, use dry standing wood. I worked in a reconstruction iron age village for a time, with thatched round houses. We had an open fire in there where the smoke was allowed to filter through the roof. We had to keep the fire as smokless as possible (espessially when the health inspector came) <img src="images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />.

Were you by chance associated with the BBC's 'Surviving the Iron Age' show?

Thanx everybody for all the hints and tips. Did you have alot of enemies at one point in life? Anyway, I had an idea for a good tactical fire but don't have the time to try it out so I'll run it by you guys. Do you think just using the coals for cooking and heat would work? They don't give off alot of light and almost no smoke, but they do give off alot of heat. To keep it going you could just make a trench or whole in the coals and put some more wood in. Also clean materials burn with less smoke than dirty ones ex. driftwood with mud dried on it from rivers or lakes or whatnot. OK lets say I'm somewhere out in a fairly rural setting, non hostile, with your basic assortment of plants and animals, rabbits, squirrels, deer etc and have a recurve bow at about 25 pounds of pull and arrows and a good knife. What do I do for food? Should I hunt for plants and animals at the same time or concentrate just on animals then plants. I can bring myself to eat ants, most earthworms and some grubs, in a last ditch effort of coarse. Also what other things do you think I would need? Remember, I'm trying to lean more towards using plants and shelter than prey and fire. So I would like having a fairly big (and time consuming) shelter with a small fire. As the Native Americans say, you can always distinguish a white mans camp because the fire is too big <img src="images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

It depends...

Are you setting up a home? camp? bivouac? Are you planning on subsisting for years? weeks? days? If you are in one of 1day - three week emergency scenarios that this site usually deals with, then the need for food is really not that urgent and the concern with fire is that it be safe and as visible as possible to ensure rapid rescue. If you are setting up anything residential then you will need a lot of stuff. You might even want to establish shelter that is large and substantial enough to have the fire inside for heat. Something like an A-frame or Tipii. If you are setting up for an enjoyable weekend of camping then take the coleman stove and bring some hamburgers. If you are planning for an outing living on plants as an experiment then get out the guide books on local plants, go out with them in hand and identify and try each of the plants you think that you can recognize by bringing them home and preparing them in the kitchen first. You might be good enough at identifying plants to not kill yourself (or not) but you won't know if you want to live on them until you taste them. red meat almost always taste decent and if it doesn't then you would probably not be safe eating it. OTOH plants that are edible and healthy are often quite distasteful. A great example of an edible plant food that you will probably not want to live on (even though you could for a while) is the lowly acorn. It is rather high in protien and has a decent fat content but it's tannin content makes it an extremely bitter food. If you take the time to mash them, rinse them, boil them bury them in a clay pot for a week, dig them up and rinse them again you will be able to generate a mash that is much more palatable. But you will have eaten three squirrels, a couple of rabbits and perhaps a crow by the time the acorns will be palatable. <img src="images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

No, not a lot of enemies growing up.

Cooking over an open fire is good, but so is cooking with coals. Each way has its good points. Some foods are really good wrapped in foil and buried in the coals. It is a great way to roast meat and bake potatoes. If you have ears of corn still in their husks, you can soak them in water and then lay them on the coals and let them steam in the husks. Yum! This is making me hungry. Pass the butter and salt!

I might be mistaken about this, but I think that a fire might be better than coals for heating your camp. The reason I say this is because a bed of coals is not going to be very tall (especially in a pit or trench), and there will not be as much heat radiated horizontally as there would be with the open fire. Either way, you'll get more usable heat if you make a reflector of some kind.

I agree with your preference for a small fire.

Regarding food, if you are going to rely on a 25 lb bow, you might want to concentrate on smaller game like rabbits and squirrels. If you can adjust your aim, you could try shooting fish. I wouldn't try shooting a deer with it, unless maybe it was a fawn, and I wouldn't do that unless I was desperate. You certainly could kill it if you could get close enough and could put the arrow in the right place, but I think your time and energies would be better spent going after smaller game or gathering edible plants.

As for whether to go after edible plants or animals first, the correct answer is "water". After locating a good water source, then go after the other foods. I wouldn't worry too much about whether to go for plant or animal foods first. Plants aren't going to run away from you, so if you come across a good plant source, go for it. You can live off of the plant sources while you hunt for animal sources if you have too. On the other hand, if you find Thumper hanging around before you get your plant foods, take him out. You can gnaw on one of his legs while you look for your plant sources. Keep in mind that you should not be eating unless you have plenty of water.

You asked about other things you might need. There are several things. You might want to take a small sharpening stone to maintain the edge on your knife. You might carry a space blanket or a plastic sheet with you to use as shelter or ground cloth, at least until you get something else built. A small container of insect repellent might not be a bad idea. The May 2003 edition of Consumer Reports has an article rating several repellants. You might also have several feet of twine for lashing and snares. You might want to have a small shovel, such as the G.I. entrenching tool. At some point, you're going to need a latrine. You should also have a small first aid kit. One thing you need to have with you that is often overlooked is a bar of antibacterial soap. You run the risk of some pretty nasty stomach and intestinal problems if you eat with unwashed hands. Even if you can't wash the rest of your body or your clothes, you should wash your hands after relieving yourself, touching or cleaning game, and before handling food. It would be a good idea to have some sugarless gum with you, or some other means of cleaning your teeth. You can also chew the end of a green twig until it is mashed up into a mass of fibers, and use that to clean your teeth. If you ignore your teeth, you may regret it later. I would also recommend that you have a compass of some kind, a good whistle, and a small signal mirror. You don't have to get the expensive Starflash mirror. It is possible to aim other types of mirrors. Whatever type of mirror you use, make sure that it is unbreakable. From the sound of your other posts, it sounds like you are preparing for something other than getting stranded. Perhaps you do not want to be found, but on the other hand, you might find yourself in a situation where you want or need to be found, and then the mirror and whistle will worth their weight in gold. Here's an added benefit to the whistle. Some animals, such as rabbits and groundhogs, will stop in their tracks, sit up and look around when they hear the sound of a shrill whistle.

Use wisdom about the type, size, and location of your shelter. In hot weather, a large shelter may be cooler, but in cold weather, a small, snug shelter is warmer. Also, you will want to conserve energy and water as much as possible, so be careful about the complexity of your shelter.

I would strongly recommend that you get a copy of the army survival manual. I think you would like it and find it to be very interesting and informative. I have the 1970 edition of FM21-76, and it is excellent. It has a lot of pictures and diagrams, and includes edible plants and animals and how to prepare them. You can read a copy of the 1992 version on this site. The URL is http://www.equipped.org/fm21-76.htm .

By the way, since you will be out in the wild, you should know something about bears. Do you know how to tell the difference between a black bear and a grizzly bear? To find out, you sneak up behind him, give him a good swift kick in the butt and climb a tree real fast. If the bear climbs the tree and eats you, he's a black bear. If he pushes the tree over and eats you, he's a grizzly. <img src="images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Bag the Chlorex dude, it isn't dependable. You will be EXTREAMLY unconfortable if you get a bug. Boil the water. You just need a rolling boil. If there is junk in the source, strain it through a bandana before boiling. If you hear about a new technique from anyone, even me, check it out in the library before checking it out on you. And read, read ,read. I strongly suggest reading "Into the Wild". You are obviously smart and enthustastic, don't let that get you a case of the trots, or worse. Take good notes, and have fun.
Biscuits

If you hear about a new technique from anyone, even me, check it out in the library before checking it out on you. And read, read ,read.


Don't worry, cross referencing is standard practice with me. Just ask some of my teachers or my parents. They get annoyed when they catch me asking someone else the same question I just asked them. I had pet turtles once and used clorox to 'disinfect' my hands after cleaning their aquarium and got salemenella, I learned that lesson well. No need to reinforce.

Well, as for the time I will be spending, it varies from anything like a 1 hour walk to something of Thouraeian (Think, Why I went to the Woods) proportions. I know a couple plants for certain already. Cleaning stuff in the kitchen is alot easier than in the field, so I guess I'll do that. Is there some way to stop the animal your skinning from smelling bad, or does that just go with the territory? I am always careful not to cut the intestines, but they always bug me with smells.

By the way, since you will be out in the wild, you should know something about bears. Do you know how to tell the difference between a black bear and a grizzly bear? To find out, you sneak up behind him, give him a good swift kick in the butt and climb a tree real fast. If the bear climbs the tree and eats you, he's a black bear. If he pushes the tree over and eats you, he's a grizzly.

Hardy har har har. I know how to identify bears. Coydogs is what you have to worry about up here. I have had a run in with bears and they just ran away. Smart move. Had the big 20 with me. Whats your favorite type of shelters for summer or winter?

work for a while as an inner-city EMT and the more natural smells of butchering dinner won't bother 1/2 as much. If you are smelling anything other than blood during your butchering then you have cut or shot some part of the animal that you shouldn't have. If you open any part of the digestive tract it will stink. and that goes for most of the organs as well. disconnect such parts from the animal without puncturing them or the fascia that surrounds them. If you wish to eat organ meat then the least stinky ones are the liver and the brain. I wouldn't suggest eating organ meat since it is usually where the body does the bad chemistry - stick to muscles and seperate them from the beast as cleanly as possible. Varmint and fish are treated just about the same. Unzip from chin to rectum, scoop the loose stuff, rinse, skin and roast / toast / fry / bake and then chew. Many will have scent glands in various places which you want to avoid. Learn these locations in the animals you harvest regularly and learn how to remove them without squeezing / cutting them and letting their contents loose. These are commonly found on the head and in the groin but that is probably not the only places and you will want to be able to recognize and locate them during butchering so get educated. If possible, spend some time with a local butcher or hunter and learn their tricks. If you find a semi-retired / retired old coot they will be glad enough of your honest interest in their skills that they will teach you more than you think you need to know (which is probably less than they could teach and less then you really need to know but that is the nature of youth.)

Keep at it and along the way you will have many interesting adventures and deliscious meals!

Understood.

We used to have bears show up at the campsites when we'd go camping. We'd just yell at them and make a lot of noise by banging pots and pans together, and they'd amble off. I think they'd rather not interact with people if they don't have to.

I wouldn't want to get too close to one's food or cub, though. I've seen the damage one can do when it gets ticked off, and they're nothing to mess with. They might look slow, but they aren't, and they are very powerful. I used to want to do some bear hunting until I did some studying about it. If you shoot one, you'd better hit him just right with something of sufficient power. If you just wound one, you can be in a lot of trouble. After dark, the hunter becomes the hunted. I am a very good shot, but the thought of being gnawed on by Gentle Ben doesn't interest me in the least. I'll stick with rabbits, squirrels and deer, thank you.

You asked about my favorite shelter. I will assume that we're talking about me finding myself in a situation where I have to rough it, and I have no control over the time of year, the weather, etc, and all I have is my emergency equipment. If a cave is available, and it is sound, I might consider that rather than bother with putting up a shelter of my own. I might also consider a culvert or under a bridge, if either were available. Otherwise, if the weather was warm enough, I'd pitch a lean-to. If there wasn't going to be much dew in the morning, I might just sleep under the stars. If the weather was colder, I would probably fashion a pup tent of some kind or something like a willow shelter with plastic sheeting laid over the top and fastened to the ground, and it would be facing away from the prevailing winds. The ideal location of a warm weather shelter is different from that of a cold weather shelter. If we're talking about a bitterly cold winter situation, and there is sufficient snow, I might consider a snow cave. If the materials were available, and there wasn't time to put up one of these shelters, something like a log shelter (not the same as a log cabin) would do for a night or two. It's not a good permanent shelter, though.

Shelter options when dumped in to a situation with no / little gear are limited by the amount of time you spend on them.

I would generate a debris hut for night 1 - 10. If I was intending to stay I would start building something larger on day 2. By day 10 I would think you could build something with logs and thatch that would resemble this

>>After dark, the hunter becomes the hunted I'll stick with rabbits.<< You've obviously never seen "Night of the Lupus" <img src="images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Fraid not. I supose there's quite a few reconstruction iron age villages around Briton. But it would be something like the dwellings you saw on that. Do they show UK history programmes in the US then?

I guess I missed that one. Did Thumper go off his meds?

Giant, carnivorous bunnies terrorizing remote desert town, circa 1972. Calling it a B movie would be grading on a serious curve. <img src="images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Hmm. Maybe I'm doing something wrong and just not realizing it. Well, I'll keep trying. I am most aptly to use the entrails for bait than to eat them myself. How would you clean a snapping turtle? I'm always running into them up here and am quite proficcent at there elimination. There is no season on them and they have few predators, once at a fair size. Also do you have any suggestions for bow and drill, or just drill fires? I have tried everything and goten it fairly warm, but to no avail.

Oh yeah, I'm certain that in this wacky state, you could into some D S for 'molesting' a bear. And I know how fast a cub can go, I saw one run the entire length of a very long field in under 5 seconds. Haven't seen them lately though. Shouldn't you put your shelter in the middle of a hill next to a valley so the cold air doent sink down all around you and winmd on the top of the hill freeze you out? Oh yeah, were do you guys find all these survival websites?

<img src="images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />Oh yeah, now I remeber that, the little kids released the lab rabbits and stuff. That movie was so cool when I was little. What was it called again?

Actually, I was referring to how fast the adults can move, but I'll bet the cubs can really scoot when when they want to, too.

As far as campsite location is concerned, let me give you an excerpt from the Army survival manual. "Ideal sites for shelter differ in winter and summer. The choice during winter depends upon protection from the wind and cold and nearness to fuel and water. In mountainous areas, you must consider the danger of avalanches, rock falls, and floods. you should choose a site during the summer months which is relatively free of insects and near fuel and water. As a protection against insects, it is better to select a site on a breezy ridge or in a place that receives an onshore breeze. Sites in forests and near rapid streams are desirable".

I don't know that I'd necessarily camp halfway down the hill. Depending on the location of fuel and water, another location might be better. It might be sufficient to just be on the lee side of the ridge or hill. Be careful that you don't locate your site in a drainage area on the hillside. You don't want your site to be flooded if it rains.

For what it's worth, in the winter, the East and South sides of a hill will recieve sunlight before the other sides, so they may warm up the fastest (that would be East and North for those south of the equator). Keep the prevailing winds in mind, though, and try to stay shielded from them. I was on a deer hunt once, and had a stand on the West side of a ridge because I didn't want to be blinded by the sun when it came up. I was also about halfway down the hill, as it was about the best location on that hill. As it turned out, the sunlight didn't reach me at all until 10 or 11 o'clock, and I froze my butt off most of the morning while cold air from the valleys behind me poured over the ridge and down my collar.

People assume survival eating will be some paleolithic diet of tubers and animal protien . SInce yu come from a farming background I propose the following : A. find a native plant society or heirloom seed collector's group. B. throughout your home territory establish some wild gardens, planting enough for you and the various critters that assure you the food is good. A fellow by name of Johny Appleseed did this. Many native peoples have also encouraged certain food crops.

Way ahead of ya! I have been experimenting with translpants and am going to raid the mill for some corn. Not doing as good as I want, but it's a start.

Good points. I've been wondering how to avoid biting bugs. I have seen the difference the sun can make, once when I was duck hunting I was only 10 feet away from warmth where the sun could peak through the hills. But my blind was better where it was and I managed to get one.

It wouldn't hurt to have some kind of insect repellent. Try to get a copy of the May 2003 edition of Consumer Reports. It contains a pretty fair article on insect repellents. It rates a number of repellents that they have tested.

If you don't know where to find a Consumer Reports, try the book stores, or the magazine sections of the grocery stores, Wal-Marts, Targets, K-Marts, etc in your area. If it is difficult for you to get to a place like that, let me know and I'll summarize the info and relay it to you.

TackDriver303,

Based upon my reading here on ETS and a few other sites, I recently purchased the 2oz. Sawyer Maxi DEET Low Odor Formula (100% DEET, about $3.85 in a local Walmart for those interested) & wondered if it was listed in the Consumers Report that you mentioned.

Thanks,
Comanche7

No, it was not listed. The only Sawyer product listed was Sawyer Controlled Release, a lotion with 20% deet. Just because something isn't listed doesn't mean that it's not any good, however.

With two exceptions, there was a direct relationship between the effectiveness of a repellent and the amount of deet it contained. The more deet, the more effective. The product with 100% deet was effective against mosquitoes for 13 hours, the most of any product listed. It was effective against ticks for 7 hours, just slightly less than the top rated product.

I would not be surprised if the Sawyer product with 100% deet was roughly as effective as the 100% product list in CU.

Ruzz,

I am a little confused. You have many of the new pieces of equipment (knives, night vision) but you want to go more primative. Forgive me for being a little upitty, but WHY?? Most fo the articles I have read on this site and others say carry enough to get you through the first 48 to 72 hours. During that time, you can usually move to safety of some sort (a small town, farm house etc). Being from OK, where there are some large tracts of land, I can see taking up to two days to get out, but the only concern I would have would be water.

I am digressing, why dont you carry a knife everyday? Same goes with a lighter. As far as I could read, you never answered those questions clearly. I know you are in HS and they wont let you carry that stuff to school, but IMHO, there isnt a need for them there. I know there are a million scenarios that could happen in a school, but I would think they are few and far between. So back to the point, why not go out prepared, if you already have the gear? A lighter isnt a difficult thing to get and I am sure your parents have some matches. Those should be easy to get, unless you are not allowed to have them, and if you go camping without them, well then good luck. I have tried almost all of the fire starting methods I could find and I would much rather use a lighter or some matches.

I hate to sound mean or rude, and if I have I am truly sorry, I would just hate for your first expirience to be so bad that you lose your interest or end up hurt or worse. I have seen people incapacitated within 20 minutes of their home on foot. It sucks.

Anyway, good luck and get yourself a good knife or multitool, and a lighter too. They are cheap and really small ones are great for emergency flame if need be.

Garrett

Thanks for checking. <img src="images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

My research across several forums and books indicated that the 100% is the stuff to buy for use when you really need it. Included in several of the sources that I perused was the cautionary statement that when you're using it, to watch out for getting it onto sensitive skin areas/eyes <img src="images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" /> , avoid ingesting it and to remove it with soap and water when it is no longer needed.

My own inclination is to not use it unnecessarily (like when you may have other options), but when the time comes it will be very welcome.

Another thought that comes to mind, it that in the case of folks with sensitive skin (youngsters etc.), it could probably be "cut" to a lower percentage via mixing with some of the common sunblock/sunscreen lotions. Depending upon how many folks are "sharing" your kit at the time and how long it looks like you'll be "out there", cutting it with sunscreen would extend your resources.

As far as the useful repellent time for ticks and mosquitos, my experience is that almost all of the time there are more mosquitos than ticks in a given area and that the flying vermin are more annoying. Having had to do "tick checks" upon returning home, I am also appreciative that the DEET also works on them as well. They are both considered carriers of disease. <img src="images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

Living as close to the Everglades as I do, and having (regretably <img src="images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> ) been out there without repellent in the past, I know for a fact, that when I need it, I'll need it bigtime. Until then, it quietly sits in the kit ready for use. <img src="images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

First, sorry I have been absent. Alot of big tests coming up and the review sessions take up ALL of my free time. To answer your question as to why I want to go more primitive, it's mostly a reason of diversity. If I can make a fire with just the stuff I can gather from the land, I feel much closer to it and better able to survive. I have, however, organized a survival pack with a lighter 2 different sized knives and various other things I find would help me out. They arn't the best knives ever built, but I can easily make do. Anyway, I can see myself having to flee from humanic disastors, and not having time to get any lighters or stuff. I'm trying to be efficent, but I think I went too far so now I at least have them already to go.

Your not the first one to point out the chink in my armor. Thanx. I have spent my fair share of time outdoors freezeing up under a tree or bank. I have a long list of things I'm going to purchase as soon as I get a liscence, and you can bet fire starting equipment and knives are on it. I agree with you that a lighter is the easiest way to start a fire. But what happens when it runs out, or you fall and break it. Maybe I'm just thinking Hatchet too much. Maybe I have watched too much Tremors I dunno. I don't mean to evade the question. Actually, for shear ease of fire starting, an acetylene torch would be the best <img src="images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

In my Chemistry class, we covered insecticides. Yes, the 100% DEET stuff is what to go for. Or you can try to find 150 or 200% superconcentrated stuff, but I have never seen those. My chemistry teacher recommends Woodsman or Benz. OTOH throwing in a good mosiquito net would be very helpful, but I'm one to talk. <img src="images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

This is a "just for fun" link on fire starting hypergolic reactions. If you carried some of sodium peroxide with you starting fires would be a breeze. Now if only there were an easy way to make sodium peroxide.... <img src="images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

I just returned from a session in the woods of Maine during black fly season. I used a stick of Off, applied generously and thoroughly. I was comfortable while others had to resort to head nets. I think there is some difference in individual susceptability - bugs often go for my wife and daughter (even when they avoid scented products) and leave gnarly wizzened me alone.

One thing to consider is that you won't be building fresh fires from scratch all that frequently. Even with mediocre wood, you can usually coax last night's fire to life without using matches or lighter to cook breakfast. On one occasion, using a really good desert hardwood (ironwood), we were able to cook breakfast on the still hotly coals from the evening fire without doing a thing. So if you are staying in one spot, you could go days without using your matches.

People BM (before matches) went to some lengths to preserve their fires, even carrying live coals from camp to camp. When sulphur matches were introduced they were wildly popular and replaced flint and steel rather quickly.

We should all remember Ruzz is still in that wonderfull phase of life before society demands specific patterns of behavior 24/7. <img src="images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> If he wants to mix things up thats well and good. Learning odd bits of skills with utterly no cohesiveness or connection leads to innovation,discovery and fun. I had two friends growing up; one read about the Knights of the Round Table and got laughed at. He is now THE authority on armor and gets to fly all over Europe cataloging and Identifying collections. The other guy was famous for putting things up his nose; marbles @ 10, angry boyfriend's fists @ 16 and finally white powder @ 25. He's on probation now <img src="images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> Ltes not expect everyone to be so SERIOUS about all this. Having fun in a survival situation is a key element to survival thinking <img src="images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

I would probably favor the 100% deet stuff also.

Consumer Reports says that deet is safe if used according to directions, but over the years, there have been scattered reports of severe neurological effects, most involving children. In areas affected by West Nile virus, the risk of adverse effects from deet, including minor skin reactions, is almost certainly much lower than the riesk of catching the potentially devestating disease.

Consumer Reports offers the following advice on the use of insect repellents:

* Don't use a stronger product than you need. If you're going out for an hour stroll in the evening, you don't ned a product that keeps mosquitoes away for 13 hours. And if two products give equivalent protection, choose the one with the lower deet concentration.

* Follow the application instructions on the product. Using more than the specified amount won't give you extra potection, but may increase your risk.

* Don't apply deet near eyes or mouth, or on broken skin. If using a spray, don't spray your face directly or breathe in the spray mist. Spray the product on your hands and then rub it on your face.

* Don't apply deet under clothing. This can hasten its absorption by the skin. Spray over your clothes, and be sure to wash them before wearing again to avoid spreading the chemical. Deet generally doesn't harm cotton, nylon, or wool, but it cam damage some synthetics such as acetate, rayone, and spandex, along with plastic eyeglasses and watch crystals.

* When you come back inside, wash the repellent off your skin.

* Take precautions with young children. Don't apply deet to infants under 2 months of age. Don't let a young child apply or handle the product, an d don't apply repellent on a child's hands. If uysinga spray, spray your own hands and then rub repellent on the child. The American Academy of Pediatrics currently says deet concentrations of up to 30 percent are safe for adults and for children over the age of 2 months.

Another repellent Consumer Reports tested contained permethrin, which kills bugs on contact, instead of just repelling them. These sprays are for use on clothing, not on skin, and can provide long-lasting protection when you're wearing long-sleeved shirts, long pants, and socks. They tested Repel Permanone, with 0.5 percent permethrin, which kept all mosquitoes from biting for 24 hours, and killed all ticks for two weeks. Consumer Reports says that other sprays with the same amount of permethrin should perform similarly. I don't know whether the permethrin sprays will stain or damage any fabrics or other materials, though. I assume that that info will be on the label.

Be sure you are not allergic to deet before you have to depend on it in the field. This stuff lights me up. Even the mild amount in Cutter will turn my skin red. Something like “Deep Woods Off” will make me break out. I use 2 different "herbal" repellents. One I just got is a Badger product. Works very well, so far.

Wow, those are high concentrations, believe that I would either have to face bugs like in the Men In Black movie or cut the DEET pretty heavily with sunscreen before using that strength.

Nice thought on the mosquito net, I have one in the vehicle kit. Hate changing tires while continually swatting the buzzing around the noggin. <img src="images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> Been there, done that, ugggggghhh! <img src="images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

Thanks for the update. I concur with virtually all of it. Haven't messed with" permethrin" yet (at least to my immediate knowledge) & will keep an eye out for more info.

Pyrethrin/permethrin are the synthesized and natural chemicals from a flower from Africa. It is totally safe around mammals, however, it can kill fish,amphibians,reptiles and birds. What you really need to understand is the label. A quick look at many insecticides will list a small percentile of the listed chemical. Notice the 98% material listed as inert material. What you are spraying on you is usually a petroleum based compound to act as a carry medium. And what the industry also will not reveal, are the additional "boosters" added to that inert base. Permethrins will only last a few hours at best, and are most effective in a water based medium. I prefer some rather old fashioned remedies; smudging with local plant materials, using as smoky fire when at base and lastly what elephants do- cover my exposed features in mud <img src="images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

Oooooh!

That was a really cool reaction!

<img src="images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

Ruzz,

Matches, especially in a waterproof match safe, and a disposable butane lighter (such as a Scripto or Bic) are easy, convenient ways to start a fire. But as you have noted, matches can become wet, lighters loose fuel and otherwise malfunction. One very reliable device for starting fires is the modern, artificial flint rod, the ferocerrium (sp?) rod and steel. It's good for thousands of lights. Even if it becomes wet, it is simple to dry. It has only 2 parts and you provide the energy to make one move.

A number of excellent ferrocerium rods are available. The Swedish Fire Steel is excellent. Another favorite is the Hot Spark available at any Boy Scout shop. One is part of my EDC.

My favorite tender consists of cotton balls which I have impregnated with petroleum jelly. They readily catch sparks and ignite. They burn well for about 5 minutes. After practice, you may be able to start a campfire with only a fraction of a cotton ball. You can also buy prepared tinder from various sources. Couglans is everywhere. Others are also commonplace.

I have also worked with natural flint and carbon steel trying to make a fire. It's quite hard even to get a decent sized spark, let alone start a fire with the primitive tools. So if that's your goal, work hard, but be patient.

Naturally, I am assuming your parents consent to all your fire-starting endeavors. Discuss it with them. They might surprise you with very good information. And don't act against their wishes even if you don't agree with them. The farm is their livelihood and they may have excellent but unspoken reasons)

Enjoy your many opportunities to learn while young.

John
(a former 16 year old farm boy)

Aside from concerns re effectiveness and possible medical side effects from insect repellents, one also needs to consider how it may interact with things it gets on. For instance, the deet-based insect repellent and or the sun block we were using dissolved part of the finish on my son's Remington 870 Express shotgun. OTOH, I used the same products, but it/they didn't affect the different finish on my Remington 1100.

So the moral is be careful with chemicals around things you handle.

John

I agree with you about the individual succeptibility. I think it may have something to do with the scent of the person and/or the colors they are wearing. I have had yellow jackets come out of the ground right by my foot, ignore me, and attack a man several feet away.