It would seem my first post on this topic got locked for reasons I can't get an explanation for so I thought I would try again.

For those who read the first one, please try to drop any preconceived notions.

Where I live I cannot legally carry a firearm. Wisconsin has no provision for concealed carry and open carry while technically legal results in a disturbing the peace fine.

The knife carry laws in my state are written so vaguely that county prosecutors are free to make their owns laws. I have a nephew who committed a crime where he used a swiss army knife to open the locked doors of a coin operated laundry mat and then used the same tool to open the change dispenser. He wasn't charged with robbery, but armed robbery due to having the swiss army knife. He was 18, first offense and got 10 years in prison.

It is illegal to do any kind of trapping in my state unless one has taken a course offered only in select areas that for many require lengthy travel. With the course completion the laws are written in such a way that only commercial gear can be used. It is not at all clear if a simple snare trap using string or paracord are legal. Even using a hav-a-heart trap to live trap and release garden pests are not legal under the law though such things would rarely be enforced.

I could go on, but it seems to me we have a lot of laws on the books that are not at all friendly to those who would like to be prepared for survival situations and try to get some actual hands on practice before the skills are actually necessary.

What do you think?

Not this again....

Yes there are laws that are unfriendly to those who break into laundromats using a Swiss Army knife.

What was the question again?

JohnE

I am going to say I feel really unwelcome here. On other survival/preparedness forums I do not feel that way. What have I done wrong?

I PMed Chris (the mod) and he declined to even respond to why my last post was locked.

I spent about $200 on stuff Mr. Ritter promotes and joined the forums, but can't understand why a simple topic that can be summarized as 'how do your laws affect survival preparedness affect you?' draws so much problems.

As a direct point there is this from 'JohnE' 'Yes there are laws that are unfriendly to those who break into laundromats using a Swiss Army knife. '

In this case the crime was breaking and entering as well as robbery. The actual charge was armed robbery simply because he carried a swiss army knife. I assume most of the readership carries a knife of some sort. How do you feel knowing that the utility tool you carry is effectively a sentence multiplier even if you threaten nobody with it?

Again, I am not trying to be in any way disruptive and do not understand why my post causes anyone any problems. I have PMed the moderator to inquire and the moderator refuses to communicate with me.

Never have I felt so unwelcome on a forum before.

Y'all have a nice life, I don't think I wish to try to be a part of this community.

I am sorry I sent $200 Mr. Ritter's way. Won't make that mistake again.

.... looks like it, somebody call al locksmith

-----------
.... looks like it, somebody call al locksmith---------

Again, would somebody please give me the courtesy of letting me know what I have done wrong? What forum rule have I violated? Why did my original post get locked (mod won't tell me)? What is objectionable about this post?

If Mr. Ritter was trying to raise up an outspoken advocate *against* his site and products he is succeeding, but other than that I just don't get it. What have I don't wrong? Why am I getting endless criticism (that I don't get on other survival/preparedness forums) with no explanation?

Sorry you couldn't take a small joke.

Can't speak for other "survival" forums except to say that most if not all of the ones I've read are full of people who seem to be actively working towards an end of the world scenario to take place so they can fulfill their deluded mountain man fantasies.

What are you specifically asking? If you're simply looking for validation for your hypothesis that there are some awful laws that govern things like trapping animals or hunting them without the proper license, you've obviously come to the wrong place.

You've stated that it is illegal for you to carry a gun in your state, so what are we to do with that information? Someone posted that you were in error and you didn't respond. You post that your nephew committed a felony and got caught, were you hoping for some sort of sympathy because you THINK the laws he broke were what, unfair? He broke into another person's place of business to steal from them according to your own account, most of the other "survival" forums would advocate he be shot for trespass.

And please, complaining about the posts written here and trying to tie them into the quality of the products that Doug Ritter endorses and how much money you spent for them? That's just weak.

Again, what's the question?

JohnE

I think you should bite the bullet, and take the required course. In addition, there are a multitude of schools offering training in primitive skills, hunting, trapping and fishing, wilderness survival, wilderness first aid, and a myriad of other skills. There, you can learn, practice and develop your survival-related techniques without violating the law. You can also legally build and try out things like snares, traps, and fires, at least to the extent of testing that you constructed them correctly, in your own back yard, then dismantling them safely.

Please be aware that this is a survival forum, not a survivalist forum, and is intended for mariners, aviators, outdoor adventurers, and those interested in emergency/disaster preparedness. We strive to be rational, polite, family friendly, and law-abiding.

In all honesty, we really don't have much to offer anyone who has a problem with the law, other than to suggest that they learn to comply, move to where the laws are more to their liking, or seek to change the laws they don't like.

This forum is not intended for those who, because of dissatisfaction with civil society or government, live a survival/retreat/off-grid lifestyle full time, or want to; post-apocalypse/end-of-civilization/zombie horde preparers, or militia/anti-government political types. This is not the place to ask about improvised silencers or full-auto mods, for example. Not that I'm saying you, personally, are any of that, mind you.

I'm just offering my personal opinion as to why you may have felt a certain chill resulting from your survival vs. the law post. The title itself is off-putting to most regulars here. Unless faced with significant extenuating circumstances, such as a survival emergency, I'd bet this is one of the most law-abiding on-line communities you could find.

Keep in mind, also, that this forum is private property, and it's owners can do as they please here. We are all their guests, and can be shown the door at any time for any reason, no explanations required. As for the Ritter gear, you still have some first rate kit for your money, anyway.

Good luck and best wishes to you, Sir.

Jeff

Welcome to ETS Forums, Username_5!!

A significant part of ETS members are rescue and government workers. Excuse them for advocating the rule of law.

Personally, I believe a TEO***KI type scenario is the one most in need of law enforcement. It's kind of obvious if you think about it.

Okay, so some laws are bad. I'm sure the police and/or national guard will take that fact into account in a humanitarian catastrophe.

Not where I live, I have searched high and low for them.



What is the difference between survival and survivalist?
I would assume a person who survives is a survivalist, but I am fairly new to this whole thing so perhaps there is nomenclature I am unfamiliar with? Something that might help others is having a terms of service clearly posted. I have look for this site's terms of service and can't find them even after reading every entry in the FAQ. Kind of hard to know what is OK and what isn't.



I am a former Marine grunt with combat experience and formal survival training. I like to think I am qualified to post here. I am interested in emergency/disaster preparedness. I like to think myself rational and polite. I am married with 4 kids and 2 dogs so think myself family friendly. I have never been arrested for anything so think myself law abiding and patriotic.



I am not asking anyone to 'have a problem with the law', I am authoring a post about how the laws we have to live with affect us as preparedness/survival advocates and our practice of what we learn. I am getting that this is the wrong place for such discussions although I admit I don't get how such a thing can be amongst those who would wish to survive/prepare for a disaster. Did Katrina not teach that government and laws won't help in such a case? Did Katrina not teach that government will move right in with no help, but expend resources insisting law abiding folks surrender their firearms and all other credible means of self defense while rapists, looters and other marauders remain armed and at large?



Doesn't apply to me. I live in a suburb and work for a fortune 50 company.



Then this clearly isn't the place for me. If this is a forum for people who think getting 10 years in prison simply because one had a swiss army knife in their pocket for a crime others get probation or a year in prison for then so be it. Y'all can continue discussing your knives (all of which will be sentence multipliers) and your "survival" ideas such as how to start fires (even though those may be illegal and your knife gets you a sentence multiplier) till the cows come home.



Well, I did read that the forum is moderated to appeal to school teachers with kindergarten classes. If that is the limit of what can be discussed then this isn't the place for me.



Of course.



I am not just a guest, I am a paying customer. $200 worth plus I was considering another 160-170 for the RSK3 plus on the knife forums I was speaking positively about the RSKs. On another forum I spend $30 and with my order got a personal note from the owner inviting me to his forum (with higher traffic than this one). No problems there. Here I post something innocent and feel like I have run up against a cult.

Ritter gear is good, but it isn't all that. The RSK1 I got has a ton of blade wobble. Not the lock mechanism, but the body itself. It is so loose the blade can just be wrist flicked open and closed. Nice, but this means when locked there is side to side play (lots of it) in the blade. This isn't a defect, it is a design choice as anyone with the blade knows.

A $20 Dozier Kabar folder doesn't have this loose play in the blade. Nothing in the promotional material mentions this loose play in the blade.

The survival kit is better than most, but is still cheap. The firestarter is guaranteed to rub your thumb raw. The compass is cheap crap like virtually all tiny compasses. Never can tell where north is because the little thing may just be rubbing against something instead of pointing north. The whistle is good, but the wire and thread? Not enough to be practical. I could go on, but won't.

Ritter branded stuff is OK, but it isn't the best one can find. Above average? Yes. While I have my misgivings about the forum and it's moderation I am not going to unfairly slam a decent product.

The forums? Pretty much suck. Hate on me all you like. You folks call yourself preparedness minded, but you can't even entertain a civil, politely worded post about how local/state laws affect us.

Can't even imagine how this group will survive should the do-do ever hit the fan. I guess this is why some other forums refer to you guys as 'armchair' survivalists. At first I thought it unfair, but now kind of understand.

Good luck folks. I am pretty much certain to be banned as soon a Chris wakes up simply for making a post asking about the law and survivalism/preparedness. So be it, just means this isn't a hang out for me (or anyone else not counting on Uncle Sam being in their disaster kit)

I also advocate the rule of law. It makes a society function. I am a former Marine so I do understand the idea of rules/command/law. This doesn't mean all laws make sense nor does it mean that all laws are favorable to those of us who would like to do simple things like dig a Dakota fire hole in our backyard during the rainy season to get some practice. It doesn't mean it makes sense that a state law allows a spring activated leg trap capable of maiming a child, but doesn't allow a twine snare that couldn't harm a baby. I don't care how law and order oriented you are, I have a neighbor who is former sheriff deputy and now game warden who isn't so uptight.



Katrina taught us that the law and order officials are going to bail and take care of their own families and leave the rest of us (who can blame them).



Like the courts do today?

I am definitely on the wrong forum.

Most of us are not using said utility tool to harm another person, their property or their income. Your example is not a victimless crime and therefore warrants whatever sentence multiplier your state allows.

Now, why are you getting a cold shoulder? You see every so often someone comes in using a non-desript (pardon the ironic pun) 'Username' and then right off the bat starts lines of questions similar to "How do I evade laws in my state?", "What kind of tools would you have in your Escape and Evade kit?" "Whats the best rifle and caliber for punching through a zombie brain?" "I am the master of my domain and that is wherever I am standing so I will ignore laws so I can do what I want." (that was the basic concept of someone who came here last summer looking to hike across the country.)

I did a Google search for 'wisconsin folding knife laws', response time was 0.44 seconds. The first hit was a .pdf that says blades over 3 inches are illegal. My Leatherman, SAK, and gerber folder (all things I rotate in my EDC) are well under 3". My RSK Mk1 is a about 3.3' so while that's technically an illegal carry in Wisc., based on my demeanor, cooperation, and respect I show the officer I doubt I would get much more than a warning. I certainly would not be meeting said officer as part of committing an illegal act or acting suspicious.

I did the same search on Wisconsin trapping laws and downloaded the entire 2008 trapping regulation pamphlet. Not being a trapper I would think that trapping is a method of hunting and therefore not the same as controlling pests in your garden.

You will find this forum more along the lines of how to collect and purify water when the faucets don't work, how to start a fire, how to stay warm and dry, the pro/cons of GPS, Spot vs. PLB and links to current survival situations in the news. In this last topic, Mr. Ritter has been immeasurably helpful with his insight.

You will NOT find people on this forum who support weakening law on crime, supporting criminal behavior, advocating or teaching techniques akin to spying, breaching, evading capture, lock picking, or discussing The End Of The World As We Know It situations.

I have now explained to you what I believe it is 'your doing wrong'. In both of your posts, your looking for affirmation of deviant behavior. You won't find that here.
=====================
From when I started writing this response till I posted, there was a lot more activity, (I started before Jeffs post).

Your asking people all over the world to comment on the laws in your state on if you can or can't use snares or practice snares. Why not call a game warden in your city? Do a Google search on what is legal.

You said that your relative got ten years for using the knife in the use of a crime, not that he had kept it in his pocket. Not that it made a difference. If he had just matched the description of someone who committed a B&E and had a screwdriver in his pocket he'd probably have gotten the same sentence, who knows. What is now known is that while Wisconsin is tight on the size pocket knife a man can carry they are tough on criminals. Good for them.

So the death penalty for stealing quarters from a machine would be OK in your view?



Neat, but that isn't me or what I posted.



There is no such law in Wisconsin. Please post the link you found. If it is a link to an actual state statute I eat crow. There is no such law, instead nobody can carry any knife here without fear. In the case of my nephew his blade was 2 and 3/4th inches. Carry any knife, even a tiny swiss army chinese knock off for $5 at Wal-Mart and you can get a sentence multiplier for jay walking.



And that belief would make you ignorant. Your RSK1 is illegal and I also own one. I am, according to your research, a criminal simply for wearing an RSK1 on my belt or in my pocket. That is the entire point of my post that so many of you rush to judge me on. Ritter sells me a product that can get me jail time according to your understanding of my state's laws. I can go to Wal-Mart in town and buy a knife with a much longer blade no questions asked. They are sentence multipliers, but I guess that is OK? Doesn't really bother anyone?




Like many laws here they are intentionally vague. Having read the 2008 regs can you please tell me if using 550 paracord for a snare is legal or not? I read them and it appears they are not. It appears to me that the only legal gear is the overpriced contraptions that conform to an arbitrary standard that do not make any sense.



OK



Again, doesn't apply to me. I am a former Marine and current fortune 50 IT guy. I get the idea of rules and structure. I don't think laws forbidding fires on personal property during the rainy season are conducive to folks trying to get some safe experience making survival fires though, do you? The laws governing me on my own property are much lighter than on public property such as parks. If I can't light a fire on my own property during the rainy season where can I learn to construct a proper fire and try out the various fire making tools?

Does nobody on this forum care about such things? Again, I strongly suspect I am on the wrong forum. I get that and only am posting until the inevitable ban when Chris (who refused my PM) wakes up. I just can't believe what I am seeing here.



I did not solicit affirmation of 'deviant' behavior. I simply posed the question to the membership asking how the laws they live under compromise their preparedness for emergencies and training. I can't comprehend why some seem to think I am soliciting affirmation of 'deviant' behavior. I am confident that if you read my initial post or any post in this thread there is no encouragement for anarchy or deviant behavior.

You folks sure are quick to judge.











[/quote]

No, you're a guest - that money was for a knife and other things, not for the forum

I didn't mean to imply that my spending $200 on Ritter gear would buy me any special thing here. Rather it was a comparison between this forum and another. Here I spent 200 and get treated like crap and on the other with more traffic and better info I have no problems. On the other I spent $30 and got a note from the owner inviting me. Here I post an honest question and feel like I am being interrogated by rookie cops who think they know how to interrogate.

They have no reason to interrogate, they just do because they can and therefore do.

For a NGO to promote or let somebody promote illegal acitivity is a big no-no.

Also reading some of the post in this topic, it's getting a little political and personal. Both are adressed by the forum rouls.

Respectfully, I think I'll have to disagree with most of the first post.

Before I get to that though, just a quick question: if there are such draconian laws in WI, why is hunting such an avid activity? How are the poor "firarm" laws able to be circumvented by deer hunter, etc? I'm asking not to bust your chops, but for my own edification.

Also, the Ritter knife "wobble" isn't a Ritter issue, it's a Benchmade issue. DR just designed the blade profile, whereas Benchmade is the producer, based on the Griptilian knife model. There is a small screw that acts as the pivot for the blade, that can be tightened. Finally, Benchmade DOES have a lifetime warranty, so you can send it back with a note on what's wrong, and for $5 (return postage), they'll fix it right up.

OK, back on topic! I think that most state laws don't really forbid the type of preparations most of us discuss. For example, any day hike or multi-day camping situation allows us to practice primitive bushskills, fire making, water collecting, etc. Geocaching can help with navigation/GPS/map & compass skills. I don't know where in WI you are and how that affects travel, but if you want to get into trapping, perhaps taking a trip to MN, the UP, or IL would be appropriate? Yeah, trapping may be a bit restricted, but most hunting and fishing isn't (IIRC).

Hopefully this answers some of the concerns you've raised. As for the knife concerns... well, if you're ever questioned, you might get away by saying something along the lines of "I've carried one ever since my time in the Corps." Nothing illegal about a dialogue. But, of course, I don't think this will get you off the hook if you're carrying a Kabar at Lambeau.

Fine by me, I can tolerate polite discussion not agreeing with me.



The deer hunter enjoys certain protections. Deer hunting is a major revenue generator in Wisconsin so unless a hunter shoots somebody else any trespasses are forgiven. Wisconsin is in the top 5 most taxed states (sometimes coming it at #1) for a reason. Very little of that money goes to actually protecting wildlife even in this age of green everything. Heck, even being as highly taxed as we are we can't even get a snow plow dumping salt to come by our road because it is 'too expensive'. Everyone knows that Illinois politics are hopelessly corrupt, but not everyone knows Wisconsin is the only state other than Illinois that has no form of concealed carry on the books, you simply can't have a firearm on you concealed or open carry without running afoul of the law here.

As I said in a previous post my neighbor is a game warden for the state. During certain seasons you can do anything you want (because it generates revenue) and any other time you cannot. It is like China during the Olympics.



Do you suppose that when Doug 'designed' 'his' knife he was unaware of this problem? Do you suppose Doug had no knowledge of the blade play issue when he contracted with Benchmade?



Actually it costs the phone call to get a Return Authorization, then the postage to Benchmade and the postage from Benchmade. About $20 in total and for that one could buy a Dozier designed Kabar folder. Not as nice, but plenty good as a tool knife. I am not slamming the knife, I am just saying that neither the Benchmade ads nor the Ritter ads mention this very loose blade play not found in other knives. Some may find this blade play disconcerting. This is the kind of thing I was willing to overlook and not mention until I found this hostile forum apparently run by Mr. Ritter who cannot be contacted from any link on his forum. I will be certain to mention this from now on when I see this topic on other forums "Is the RSK worth it?". I used to say 'yes', but will now say 'no' due to the hostility of this forum. Of course there is the obvious product defect that neither Ritter nor Benchmade mention. Had I known about the loose blade play inherent in a 'high end' knife I never would have bought it. The RSK1 is just a drawer knife for me because it's loose blade play disconcerts me. I would love a refund, but since Mr. Ritter can't be contacted from any source on his own website what does that say about him and his products? Chris, I know you are going to ban me, but what can you do about getting me a refund for a cheesy, overpriced knife with good steel? Anything? Do I just have to ask my credit card co to charge back? The knife is a wobbly piece of crap.



With respect, you are ignorant of your own state's laws and how often you run afoul of them.



The problem is that trapping works for you 24x7. Fishing and hunting only work for you as long as your energy holds out. Why would I, or anyone, travel at our expense to another state just to learn how to behave illegally in our own state?



And why should a Kabar be illegal at Lambeau? I do not understand. There are many places where knives and guns are illegal and some make some sense, others do not, but the morons keep getting new locations to the can't carry list added and who can keep up? It is beyond my means even though 'ignorance of the law is no excuse' seems to hold a lot of weight with the law and order types. The same types that Katrina proved will abandon their responsibilities in favor of their own families the instant the SHTF.

By "law enforcement" I mean just that - enforcement of the local laws. Nowhere do I place this responsibility on police officials.

It's called politics. Want to change the rules in your state? Join them, vote on somebody else, protest, etc. Not much point in **** about it here.

I have no idea what you are talking about.

In an emergency whom should I place responsibility for myself and my family on? Please provide their phone number so I can program it into my speed dial and hope the power stays on long enough to dial it.

[quote]There is no such law in Wisconsin. Please post the link you found. If it is a link to an actual state statute I eat crow. There is no such law, instead nobody can carry any knife here without fear.[quote]

Here is the link. As I stated before you could have Googled Wisconsin-folding-knife-laws and clicked the first link a .pdf file.

Knife Laws

Don't be so hasty to shoot a crow and eat it. Its not the season. The crow is a protected species under the Migratory Bird Act. And according the the Wisconsin Dept. of Natural Resources which I downloaded online by googling 'hunting crow in Wisconsin' (anticipating your incredulity I provided the link below) you can't take that crow until between Jan 25 and Mar 20.

Crow hunting laws in Wisc.

Your link isn't to Wisconsin state law which I specifically requested. You linked to a national compository of laws that shows that 4 counties in Wisconsin consider over 3" to be illegal. Any idea how many counties there are in Wisconsin? Wisconsin state law is intentionally vague so local DAs can invent law. This makes the knife carrying citizen a potential criminal anywhere in the state. Still, for those 4 counties that consider over 3" a violation of law, how do you feel about that? Is that reasonable?

Heck, my silly little Swiss Army Knife with the cheap, bent up steel probably exceeds that.



which would be another stupid law since crows abound here and are not in any danger of extinction. Crows are good for killing the nests of Robbins though, the state bird. Can't kill a crow raiding a Robbin's nest unless one has the required permits, even on one's own property.

Yeah, that makes sense.

A crow kills 4-6 Robbins before they hatch, but if a human kills an adult Robbin or disturbs their nest they are a criminal. Wow.

Yeah, law and order all the way. Makes total sense. After a lobotomy.

if you have questions about the laws in your state, county or whatever. Go to the local police office and simply ask.

My neighbor is a former cop and now game warden. I have asked and for many laws that would apply to fishing/hunting/defense etc his simple answer is it 'depends on the DA and jury'. That was and is the point of my first post and now this second one.

We live under laws that threaten us for simply going through the motions of survival preparedness.

Catch and kill a fish 1" under or over the limit? Better hope a game warden doesn't see you if you have money (they can take any gear of yours they wish including vehicles without a trial). If you are Hmong you will go free because popular perception is that Hmong have no money. The DNR is just another political agency in place to make revenue for the state and no higher purpose.


Get some practice with 550 paracord for a snare? Better hope you have the right license and required training courses. Even with the training/license it isn't clear if such a trap is legal. The only sure legal trap is the commercially purchased one.

Want to carry a firearm? Forget about it. No concealed carry anywhere in the state and while open carry is technically legal you will get charged with a 'disturbing the peace' violation for any open carry in the state. And on and on and on.

That was the original point of this post.

Ah, I have yet to see a case where a person lost their veicle for catching a fish 1" over the size limit. Please refer me to a specific case, ruling, or precedent, otherwise, I think you re HIGHLY overexagerrating.

I think you're being deliberately obtuse.
The previous thread was locked partially because you used language outside the bounds of what is acceptable here, and left the comment in place for a moderator to edit.
Open carry will only result in "disturbing the peace," when you contact other reasonable people, who are disturbed by your behavior.
You're asking a lot for us to believe that an eighteen year old, robbing a laundromat, is a first offender. I don't believe it. I've been around offenders and courtrooms enough to know that, if the man got ten years out of it, a judge and jury thought he needed it.
Education, regulation, and equipment standards are not limited to only wildlife conservation: DMV, for one, is tasked the same way, for the same rationale.
If you view this kind of regulation as a real problem, perhaps you should relocate.

Good day.

In response to the above concern, you can find the contextual definition of “survivalist” at http://www.equipped.org/pop_up_survivalist_def.htm. If you need to find this link in the future, it is located at the top of the Equipped to Survive home page, in the first paragraph, labeled, “Please note that this is not a ‘survivalist’ site.”

In response to the general thread topic, I think you need to be more specific. In general, I am of the opinion that many laws do not apply when one is in a true survival situation and it was reasonable to act outside the law at the time. For example, I am of the opinion that no one is going to pinch you for snaring a squirrel when you are stuck out in the woods with no food and have no other reliable food gathering option. What laws you break while in a survival situation will be yours to decide, and you will have to weigh the reasoning yourself, i.e., “Would following the letter of the law be detrimental to my own survival right now?”

Your specific mention of the Wisconsin firearms carry law is a complex case to consider. I do not know the Wisconsin laws on this, so I cannot make specific recommendations, but in general, I cannot think of a reasonable situation where you could choose to violate that law due to a survival situation and not have already broken the law by carrying your firearm to the survival situation’s location.

Your mention of the Swiss Army Knife/robbery case is also complex. I don’t see robbery having anything to do with survival in that case and I honestly don’t think it applies to the general topic you are asking. Was 10 years too much? Are regulations on Swiss Army Knives stupid? That will depend on who you ask, and expecting a consensus on a public forum is futile.

I have already mentioned my opinion on where snaring and trapping would be overlooked. I believe that the question-to-ask-yourself that I posted above, “Would following the letter of the law be detrimental to my own survival right now,” pretty much can apply to any survival situation and your decision to act outside the law in a particular case. However, each person has to weigh the “being a criminal versus being dead” possibilities themselves, and everyone will come to different conclusions.

Myself, would I set snares if it were one of only a few ways of gathering food and I was hungry? You bet I would… even if fishing is a secondary possibility. There is no way to be 100% sure I would catch any fish, just like there is no way to be 100% sure I would catch any game in the snares. Would I take the snares down in such a case that I caught an amount of fish that would tide me over for a good while? I very well might, depending on the specific situation.

I also have a gill net in my kit, even though I believe their use is illegal. I have it vacuum packed just in case a law enforcement officer finds it and questions it, thinking that hopefully the vacuum pack will prove to him that I have not actively used it and that it being with the rest of my emergency kit equipment will show that it is for emergency use only. I have considered the risks of carrying the gill net versus the risks of not carrying it and made my decision based on that consideration. I also accept whatever consequences come of that decision… hoping they won’t be 10 years.

Folks, we need a post on the care and feeding of passive-aggressive trolls. You're encouraging him, and he's getting off on it. Username, I'm curious - you walk in a bar and have a beer (or a soda), do you stay for long, or are you asked to leave? Truth told many trolls come off much better in person than in forums. Peace, but I'm setting these threads to ignore, I don't have time.

Get aquainted with professionals and volunteers of various
agencies and organizations (SAR, Game Wardens, Scouts,
Sheriff Dept., volunteer fire or police dept etc.)
that do the kind of activities that you wish to learn or
practice. They are often looking for help and then you can
try those activities on the up and up, learn the laws,
make new friends, gain more opportunities to help others.

For example, I have a friend who is a game warden and I have learned
tons about hunting and fishing and gained access to some nice areas to hunt and fish too.

Maybe you should consider moving to a state that comes closer to meeting your requirements, or start a movement to have some of those laws changed...

I am moderating this thread. For the record I am not an armchair survivalist. I in fact moderate ETS atop a #10 can of dehydrated lima beans. My cat Piewacket has the armchair. I am usually not a morning coffee drinker, my anglo irish kosher background prefering tea with bagels. I was so hungry this AM I just took the entire Philadelphia Creme cheese block and stuck it between a big, fat cinnamon and raison one with a big spoonfull of strawberry jam.
I used a spoon, lest I violate some onerous knife law.

Chris, where I come from (Utah and Indiana) it's perfectly acceptable to use a knife to get jelly out of a jar! I do
P.S. Nothing beats a bagel w/cream cheese (excepting Lox)

Mike

I love Loxs! Problem is, I broke my SAK tryng to break into one. It was probably hte excessive play. So I set out a line. I woke up to police 'DO NOT CROSS' tape surrounding the sidewalk and gutter with grim faced F&G officers taking photos and pouring plaster casts of footprints. Luckily, our illegal immigrant landscapers obliterated everything mowing the lawn before taking off, thinking immiigration was conducting a raid.They adiosed out of here and left a HUGE pile of leafs on my doorstep. I figured I would practise debri hut building until I found some guy was already sleeping inside it.
So I made us both a late brunch, figuring to expand my networking skills, and remembering my grandfather's advise "' Be nice to people going up the ladder, you may meet htem coming back down.'
About then I remembered I had 3 tins of Baltic anchovies in olive oil.I gave him one, opened a second and discvered a note inside ' Nice estonian girl, good manners and teeth seeks american husband" with her AIM and YAHOO IM enclosed.
It smelled fishy to me.

Chris, if still have it, can you pm me her YIM and AIM? I'm single again *laughs*

Y'know, that's quite an assertion, given you have no idea where I actually do my camping. Or that you've never camped with me. Or that you know me.

Heck, I actually enjoyed the other discussions on networking and interpersonal skills for being prepared. -shrug-

You can only get sentence multipliers on relevant charges...
There is no jaywalking with a deadly weapon to use your witty comeback as an example. Your nephew (or whatever, don't care) commited a crime. He got nailed for it. He's paying for it. I'm fine with that.
As far as a death sentence for stealing quarters? No. Punishment is disapportionate to the crime.
It it illegal to have your Ritter knife? No. Just to carry it in public.
You want to practice trap building? Fine. Build them. Then use a a stick or something and trip the trigger to see if it works. You don't need to actually trap an animal to see if the design works as planned.
In a true survival situation I would use traps, reguardless of their legality. If it comes down to my life or a fine, or jail time...I'll pay the fees or serve the sentence if justice is "blind" to the laws of competeing and necessary evils. Ilm ok with that. Because I'm not a corpse in the woods somewhere.
Check your attitude bro, its 95% of the reason why you are getting so much flak

-Bill Liptak

There are some bad apples out there as LEO's.
Most have a passion for their job, a few have a passion
for the power it gives them.

I have friends who have had extreme charges brought against
them just so the correct charges would stick or so they
would plea to the lesser charge. Ain't right and it happens.

That said, you are right, the attitude is the issue here.
I was trying to say earlier, make friends, don't start fights, if you truly are wanting to learn stuff.

Do ride alongs with the law agencies. Volunteer with
emergency services. Make aquaintences with a park ranger
or warden. Join a hunting or fishing club. Volunteer with
4-H. There are tons of ways to get involved and learn.

As a teen I got to undertake responsibilites all out of
proportion to my age when I hooked up with
a Explorer Scouts search and rescue post. Adults volunteers are always needed too.

Its like any other profession, you get good ones and bad ones. I had an LEO give me a speeding ticket for passing an 18 wheeler while I was in route to their dispatch center to fix the CAD station (computer aided dispatching).
It was seeing how the other end of 911 all depends on the person answering and/or responding that taught me I need to be as prepared as I can myself.