For someone in their mid-40s, in good health, that never had any type of self-defense training... what would be some recommended sources (DVDs, books, or other) where a person might gain some knowledge of defensive skills and techniques?
Military style techniques?, martial arts?, combination? ... I have no idea.

Mostly, I would plan on using a fireman to defend myself.
But, what happens in a situation where a gun/rifle is not available, and a hand-to-hand confrontation is on?
I have no desire to be a "fighter", but I think it would be nice to have some knowledge of defensive techniques, and develop some physical defensive skills.

Whatever you choose, It must first be mental and then it must be hands on. Hand to hand is decidedly not fun. One will come away sore even if you win.

When I was an MP, I would look for every opportunity to talk people out of their mischievous intentions prior to going down that road. As a last resort I would always let them know that at the end of the day, I was going "home" and they were going to the "D Cell". The only variable in that outcome was how sore the both of us and all of my back-up were going to be.

Just curious, If you are big enough to get a fireman to submit to being carried around to defend you why are you worried about hand to hand. You'll just scare the bad guys away.

Take a look into Krav Maga. All of the IDF uses it, and they have been fighting since the country was formed.

Check the NRA website. They have a lot of info on where to go for firearms training and such.

Google search your area for self defense training. If you are urban, you should have a lot of hits.

Bruce Lee's Jeet Kune Do is a good philosophical book about effective fighting. An interesting place to start anyways. Probably the most intuitive way for an uninitiated combatant to understand how to fight, and one of the most difficult things for a seasoned and well trained technical fighter to learn.

Brazilian jiu-jitsu is taught to many law enforcement and military personnel. Its advantage is that it teaches you how to fight from both good and bad positions, and you get nearly full-force (minus punches, kicks, etc) sparring (called "rolling") every class. It's hard to beat real experience against a fully-resisting opponent.

This is an excellent forum with many threads comparing judo with similar martial arts:

Judo Forum

Oops, that's some typo, huh?
Yes, if I could carry a "fireman", he could probably protect me with that mean looking axe! ... and just think how fit I would become, carrying that guy around all day.

It was a nice laugh in an otherwise grey day

I have to agree with Desperado, an Isreali art is the way to go.

I've experimented with a few styles and Krav Maga and the FIGHT system have been the best for me. They are no nonsense and brutal.Unfortunately, I've moved and the classes aren't offered where I live.

FYI,the FIGHT DVDs and guidebook are pretty good.

Some links for you.

http://www.amazon.com/Complete-Krav-Maga...2940&sr=8-1

http://kravmaga.com/

http://www.commandokravmaga.com/

http://www.fight2survive.com/

http://www.kapapacademy.com/

Another style is Systema. It is a Russian system used by their SF fellows. Mostly using the opponent's weight and movement against them. It really reminds me of another branch on the Krav Maga tree.

Still and all, I want you to remember that the first step is mental. You must decide that there is no other course of action (Including Running Like Hell), then you have to commit 100%. I was taught that once the fight starts, you are dead. It is then up to you to fight your way back to life. It isn't pleasant, and you will get hurt even if you wind up winning. The other disadvantage is over confidence. I have seen the most mature, level headed folks leave unarmed self defense class and get their butt whipped that night in a bar after 1 beer and 1 bad decision too many.

I am 5'9" and was 200 lbs. when I tusseled with my old MP partner's wife. Turns out she is a jailer for a larger metropolitan police department. Little munchkin of a woman kicked my butt all over their backyard and rubbed my nose in mud after I just wouldn't quit taunting her to wrestle. Pain and Compliance took on a whole new feel that night.

I appreciate your comments about the mental aspects of defense. I have never been in a physical fight in my life, nor would I ever go looking for one.
My interest in having an improved chance of defending myself, would only be for a situation where conflict could not be avoided.
I think that the odds I would ever have to rely on such skills are very very low. But, better to have some preparation.
I am always looking for ways to stay in shape too; and I imagine that improved fitness would be an added bonus of such training or skills development.

I am looking for something too. I would like to train thaibox but there is one thing that discourages me and that´s quite high possibility of the the brain damage. I cannot afford to lose my brain cells or go to the doctor after every sparring in order to make sure that I haven´t suffered concussion. I have heard a few scary stories from boxers (they were not even professionals). And there is also scentific research that cannot be overlooked even though some boxers like to do that - they will tell you that it is not true and box is 100% safe.

I am considering some reality based or military system and maybe some grappling style as an addition. KAPAP caught my eye ( http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CwrAwzdf_nc ). There are some elements from thaibox in this system like the low kick which is very effective.

However there is no RBSD club near my home. I think I would have to travel to one-shot seminars if I can find something good.

The thing is an instructor matters more than a style.

Though you can´t really gain much just watching videos, this DVD could be worth checking out - SAS Fight Secrets ( http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vOTwg_YXYy0 ). One could possibly catch some concepts and moves from it.

Like many people I want to learn this stuff as a last resort skill when there is no other choice but fight.

What ever you decide on system wise, take classes. Hands on with a teacher and partner (or even better several partners of different sizes and skill levels) is the only way to learn. Research the class you take before hand and even go watch a few classes before signing up to see what they're doing. Then I recommend reading Sun Tzu and Ender's Game. Sun Tzu for strategy, and Ender's Game for the philosophy of self-defense.

BJJ has always intrigued me, but it almost assumes you're only fighting 1 person, otherwise, you take him down while his buddy keeps kicking you. Not good.

I like Tae Kwon Do, but it's better at a distance, and is really a young man's game. I have some arthritis setting in my hip, and high kicks really aggravate it.

Whatever Steven Seagal practices (Aikido?) looks interesting. I like that you can use it to control someone without necessarily having to punch or kick his lights out. I also like that you can use it in tight situations, like a bar or crowded room.

"...Whatever Steven Seagal practices (Aikido?) looks interesting...'

yes it does. but apparently it makes you put on weight

+2 on BJJ or mixed martial arts.



Actually BJJ has a comprehensive self-defence stand up component, much like what is taught in Judo/stand up jiu-jitsu.

Here is a manual on it.

Brazilian JJ self defence

Mostly I have found no matter what the art, the self-defense is about the same, the big difference in MMA and BJJ is that you go all out against a fully resisting opponent.

I'll stay away from the usual argument about fully resisting but the techniques are not as deadly versus how do you know that deadly technique will work against a fully resisting opponent...that has been debated ad nauseam on almost every martial arts board.

As for fighting more than one person....well if you are taking on more than one empty-handed, your best option is to run or pull out your .357

I have missed another idea. I don't know exactly what it is, but research the Texas DPS Trooper fighting. They are continually killing each other just training, so whatever it is they do must be damn effective. I know it is something combined with stand up boxing.

Rudimentary website but lots of links-

http://www.gutterfighting.org/Main.html

Seagull is a very good akido master. And I doubt he has ever been in a real street fight from two anecdotes, one personal. I was at a beachside restaurant with my then Gf. local resident Steven walked in and sent a drink to her. She sent it back. He walks over and starts sweet talking her. I stand up, go into a loose judo stance and say something classic. He turns, sees my stance and laughs 'And who taught you that.' I told him ( my Soto Zen Roshi who was also Japanese grand champion.)He walked away.
A few months later 3 punks yelled obscenities at his family. He left immediately.
All I know, is I saw Frank Sinatra, who NEVER had any formal training , sock a guy half his age and twice his size for making an anti italian crack one night in Westwood Village near UCLA.
There are any number of sytems. As others have posted, it's your mindset, first and foremost.

That may be the result of the munchies following his latest dose of "Medicinal" marijuana.

That's a mighty difficult question to answer. You'll find everyone has an opinion on it but few will really agree on what's best. You'll just have to find something that works for you.

Not trying to persuade you any way or the other, just to share my own experience - I've done a bit of self-defense training in the past, starting with boxing, then some MMA and BJJ classes. In the meantime I also experimented quite a bit with military combatives, especially the WWII system by Fairbairn, Sykes and Applegate.

The boxing, MMA and BJJ improved my fitness way beyond what I expected. I also learned some valuable things about fighting a fully resisting opponent in a controlled environment.

And there's the catch - it's an "opponent" in a "controlled environment". Not a bad guy (they tend to bring along a friend or two) intent on sneaking up on you, maybe distracting you with some verbal ploy, then strike when you least expect it. Combat sports are extremely important for developing a whole range of skills but they won't necessarily prepare you for a real-life confrontation. I have personally seen experienced combat athletes, and good ones at that, who gradually became cocky and arrogant because they believed in their skills too much. What they did not realize was that the bad guys don't fight by the rules. No matter how tough you are, everyone can get blindsided and no amount of working out will make you knife- or bulletproof.

Military combatives, Krav Maga etc. on the other hand are excellent because they're all about the mindset and mastering the basic, but most effective, techniques. The problem is, combatives work because they're part of a bigger system (boot camp/military training). You're already supposed to be fit to begin with, you really must mean business and train with maximum intensity. In the civilian world those qualities are hard to come by in most people.

Another BIG problem is that a lot of combatives teachers, maybe most, are not in fact ex-Special Forces or whatever they'd have you believe. Many probably have zero actual experience and may never have tested their skills for real. There are just too many crooks and wannabes out there who can't really walk the walk. Following their instructions might get you hurt.

Whatever you decide in the end, you WILL need to do some full contact sparring eventually. If you don't, you won't know how it feels to be in a fight. You have to learn how to take a punch. My advice would be to start with a legitimate combat sport under a good teacher (something like boxing, Judo, Muay Thai, MMA, whatever suits your bill). Once you get the hang of it, look into more reality-based self-defense classes, maybe combatives. By then, you will already have enough training to be able to sort out the crooks from the real deal.

Also, if you have the time, I would suggest looking into some of the books by Geoff Thompson. All the best and stay safe!

Oh, another combatives guy I can vouch for is Kelly McCann. One of the few combatives teachers with a proven track record. I have some of his videos and they're top notch. He also integrates non-lethal weapons (pepper spray etc.) into the hand-to-hand system. Very practical and down to Earth.

I spent years bouncing some BIG bars. Talking drunks out of something stupid is never easy, but far easier than the alternative. (I'm not the baddest guy around but I'm pretty good at the "alternative" too) A guy I learned a lot from back in the day wrote several books on defense. If you can find a copies, Paladin press in Boulder Colorado published a few books by Marc "Animal" MacYoung. "Fists wits and a wicked right" and "cheap shots, Ambushes, and Other Lessons" are two of his 6 books on self defense I strongly suggest reading. He has a very different writing style but like me the guy lived ending (not starting) bar brawls and fist fights. Last I knew he was head of security at a correctional institution. That should tell you something about his real world experience.

Use the element of suprise. I had a high school teacher tell a story about when he was in the military and was on leave and was at a local bar when some guy wouldn't leave him alone. The barender fnally told him he should take the guy outaide and he did. now I was in about 9th grade and a small guy myself (graduated at 120lbs) and I could look down at this teacher. He went outside and told the guy he'd give him to the count of three to shut up. Then counted to One and knocked him out. He skipped two and three.

To the OP, get a gun.

There is no such thing as self defense training that one can learn in a short time.

In a panic situation where skills need to be reflexes the only way to get there is to find a combat oriented martial arts studio (not easy to find) and then train until the techniques becomes reflexes you don't need to think about, your body just responds without the mind engaged.

In hand to hand combat if you think or blink, you lose. You have to operate purely on reflexes and instinct. Training these takes a lot of time and practice if you aren't raised in an environment that confers them naturally.

You are better off buying a gun.

double post

Then I'll be good at it, already done that!!!!!

Remember that weapons only help you if you can use them in the situation. It's nice to have a weaponless backup plan and know what to do when someone traps both arms in a surprise bear hug and tries to throw you head first onto the ground. The gun will just make a bigger bruise on your hip when you hit the ground.

Thanks for the info, I didn't know that! What really interested me was watching those Gracie boys! Talk about people I want to stay on the good side of!

Very true. Also, a gun is a huge asset in a self-defense situation but it doesn't reduce the need for training one bit. Just as learning to land a solid punch (or evade one) takes a lot of practice, so does deploying and effectively using a firearm at very close range where most confrontations start. Keep in mind that operating a firearm is a fine motor skill. These usually go out the window once the adrenaline kicks.

Ditto on Krav. I've sampled (but never seem to complete) Judo, Ju-Jitsu, Tai Kwan Do and Tai Chi, even had a seminar in Fiore dei Liberi(!). The most practical was definitely Krav Maga. Heck, the 4th class was wrestling / knife defenses! Didn't get anything like that in the other classes.

Just curious, who did the seminar on Fiore? Bob Charron, David Cvet/somebody from the AEMMA? And how did you like it?

In general I have to agree with Tom. There are physical and mental aspects to self defense and you need both. I have done both Tae Kwon Do and Hapkido and found the mix to be pretty useful.

Tae Kwon Do is usually taught as a sport and is great for getting you in shape and teaching you that you can take some damage and keep going through the pain. Of course that depends a lot on the instructor and how (and what) you practice. My instructor had a very "practical" mindset and really emphasized the defense aspects as well as the sporting ones. Some of the best defense moves in Tae Kwon Do are not allowed in sparring (imagine that )

Hapkido was an eye opener and it was amazing how easily you can seriously damage people with very little effort (in the moment, learning is a lot of serious sweat and pain). Great for practical defense and scalable from let me help you walk with me to let me leave you lying there in serious pain or worse.

I had the same instructor for both ( 6th degree black belt in these plus judo) and he was very clear on the difference between sport and defense - same skills, different mindset and you have to practice both ways or you just end up annoying your assailant.

- Eric

I've got the gun aspect covered ...
Ohio_hiker said it best, because what I am looking for is "weaponless backup plans".

Thanks to all who provided opinions and sources; now I have some places to begin my quest.

I think it's great that he was able to walk away from two avoidable fights, even if it lost him face. I imagine if he couldn't, someone in his position would be getting into fights all the time. Sooner or later either he'd meet someone who could beat him, or else he'd beat someone else and get into trouble with the courts. (And I'd doubt the courts would smile on a martial arts expert who didn't control themselves.)

One of the benefits of strong self-defence skills is self-confidence, which is part of what enables you to walk away. You feel less need to prove yourself.

My old notes on the subject say Bob Charron. I actually saved my pics & short videos on the subject, see here:

http://www.redsword.com/beadlecave/photos/02_02_18_fiore/

Boy, those videos are small now.

I liked it. It was a lot more thorough than I thought it was going to be. Would have liked to have continued through pole arms.

Hi. First post ever here.

My .02- getting hands on instruction from a teacher is paramount. However, depending on where you live, that might not be feasible. Personally, I find learning from a DVD or book on gross motor skills difficult. So, assuming you have some choices of martial arts schools and self defense programs, I'd recommend to find one that focuses on the defensive and awareness aspect of their system/art based on the nature of your question. Tell the instructor to what purpose you want to use the skills and his/her answers should pretty much tell you if they're a good fit. But buyer beware, schools are a business as well, and some will try to sell you what you want to hear and $300 per week later, you'll find out mmm...not so much. There are some schools that have a variety of styles and systems in one location offering a range of skills. As far as skill sets go: look to Filipino martial arts for weapon/knife based fighting; muay thai or krav for unarmed striking; and bjj for grappling and ground work. Sprinting is a good skill to get distance from an opponent, which is my first tactic.

"If you're in hand to hand range, it's your own fault for not humping enough ammo" - unknown

Hi Dual Primed, welcome.

Running away can be very healthy for you!
Good exercise too.
HO HO HO!

Do you have any Tai-Chi classes near you?
They are basically free, and even if you think it is just exercise for old people Tai-Chi is actually a decent form of martial arts.
You do all the moves, you just do them as slow as possible to get the moves right.
All of the moves in Tai-Chi are striking, blocking and grappling or else they are about stance and balance.
Doing them slow also builds quite a bit of strength.
The slower you go the more physically hard it is.
Then after you have your moves practiced all you have to do is start speeding them up.

If you decide to start with Tai-Chi you will be learning what is the closest style to the old Shaolin Buddhist teachings about pushing hands.
If you ever get to see a Tai-Chi weapons competition you will understand.
http://www.taoist.org/content/standard.asp?

Martial arts is fine, but you want to be ready now- not in ten years after your 2nd level of enlightenment. So for someone seeking to be a harder target fast, I highly recommend the DVDs and classes by a narcotics agent called SouthNarc. His focus is not the fantasy contractor stuff so common today, but the civilian vs. criminal context. His premise is that basically every armed confrontation starts unarmed on the side of the defender. That is why pre-assault clues ("reading" criminals) and tactics as well as basic unarmed defense skills are so important.

Link to a review of his in extremis knife class:
SN Class Review

His website- lots of material there:
Shivworks

This might interest you too as it sorts out priorities in training:
Chris Fry Article

SouthNarc does have some good information. IMO it seems most defensive skills teachers either want to teach empty hand techniques -or- techniques that employ weapons. Few teach both and especially the transition from one to the other. SouthNarc is one of the few that teaches the translation/escalation from empty hand to weapon techniques.