It's those last two criteria that make all my points legitimate, and real, concerns. Unless you do the federal paperwork, you leave yourself exposed to whatever Law Enforcement should decide is warranted.

Besides which, there are a tremendous number of LE personnel that have nothing better to do than go through records. What makes you think they aren't or haven't already investigated you, especially if you ever purchased a firearm from a legitimate dealer.

When it comes to my guns, I am just a bit on the paranoid side I reckon. As far as the government being able to keep their noses out of records I give them, they've already demonstrated that they they can't be trusted on that count, several times over.

Well Benjamin, it would appear you might not ;t change your mind on this issue, so I won;t try. But, rest assured, if you go to the gun shop tomorrow, the ONLY federal paperwork you will have to complete is the application so the store owner can run an NCIC check on you. Now, the gun shop owner has to complete his own fed paperwork on the sale of the gun, but that paperwork goes nowhere (unless you buy several weapons OR unless he submits it to ATF outlining the reasons why he thought the purchase suspicious).

In any event, a private sale is ok. It's like selling a pocket knife. The act of the sale is no more different than that. There is no paperwork to be filled out, not even a receipt. BUT!: I recommended a receipt and ID in my first post just so that, in the event the weapon was ever used in a crime, the buyer at least had some evidence of when and from whom he purchased it, even though he's not required to have it. It would be some evidence.... some attempt... of protecting yourself.

I work amid these LE people and sifting through records out of boredom is not something I've witnessed in 24 years...... but that could change soon, of course (NO. I DID NOT SAY "POLITICS". I DID NOT!) ((( )))

Naw, I know what you're saying, i just had to get on a rant. Every time one of those form 4473's gets filled out, there's a transaction of information that is going somewhere. They say they can't use that information for anything more than what you indicated for the NCIC check, but then Ted Kennedy suggested at one point that since the information wasn't being destroyed, it should be used for something more productive, which idea fortunately got shot down.

None of the LEOs I know ever do anything with that information beyond what is supposed to be done, but the fact remains the information is being kept, and sure enough someone in a dingy sub-floor with a GS rating is maintaining it for possible future use. Not LEO, but definitely on government payroll.

Let me put it another way. If you buy from a dealer, and he does the paperwork, there's no chance of getting your hands on a bad apple. I've witnessed many private sales transactions at gun shows etc, and I am sure none of them were a problem. Just given the tenuous recent events reolving around gun ownership of late, I am just a bit skeptical about procedure.

Gave this some thought some time ago. Concluded: If it comes to people looking for my guns I won't be at home anyway.


Additionally who in there right mind is going to take on the job of going house to house to collect guns?

CO

The Guns of the West Gunshow was here in town this weekend. I didn't go but of course there was chatter on the local a/m radio stations. Apparently the sales were 'very brisk'. One vendor claimed he did 3x normal business.

An ancillary report was done at the same time on a local Walmart that had 100 people in line at their weapons kiosk in the store. Did not hear if there was a coupon day or why this day was more volume than any other.

Many thanks to each of you for your thoughts on this thread. Maybe cameron2trade has it right, by the time someone comes looking for firearms, it's probably past time to be gone anyway!

Sounds like it comes down to:

Private transaction: good idea to have a bill of sale/receipt to provide some measure of arse-coverage in case a firearm has a bad history

Public (retail/FFL) transaction: paperwork/background checks are completed by retailers; datamining does not require much time or effort should someone what to run searches on ownership/registration details.

Guess it's like many topics these days: one's expectations of likely/unlikely scenarios directs one's risk management decisions.

Glad you got what you needed, Henry Porter, but I'd like to add just a little if it's allright. Mostly because the thread and contents are interesting to me and they're good discussion.

- Just about any weapon available to the public (declassified military weapons, for example), like maybe a bazooka , or a fully-automatic .50 BMG, can be bought by any U.S. citizen, and pretty much by legal aliens too. The catch is, you have to apply for, pay for, and receive a license.

- Say I'm having a garage sale and sipping coffee at 0730 on a Saturday morn. I've got all kinds of stuff for sale, including a rifle or two and several handguns.
- A guy comes up and wants to buy a revolver I have for sale. He gives me $175 and starts to walk away down the driveway. Another guy who is arriving sees the gun and offers him $185. The guys sells it and both leave. No paper except cash money has exchanged hands. No law has been broken (maybe somewhere there's a law, like I said). Certainly, no federal law has been broken.
- Smarter would be for all three of us to exchange IDs and receipts, but it's not legally necessary.

- Now a guy comes up and admires my full-auto .50 BMG (NO! I don;t have one.....yet. ) Assume I have a license.
- he offers me $12000 and I take it. He walks away.
- two crimes have been committed (both felonys):
-1. I sold the weapon without verifying licensing for that weapon;
-2. The new owner is in possession of an unlicensed weapon;

In the first scenario, where the handguns were sold, no record keeping transactions have occurred and no laws were broken, EVEN IF one of the buyers was a convicted felon (except that he is now a felon in possession). BUT: I have no legal liability to verify his history. THe only way I could be liable is if I had reason to believe he was a felon.

In the second scenario, both parties are law-abiding citizens, yet two felonies were committed.

Now certainly this post in no ways intends to refute the good points made earlier by others about concern for the weapons history. That's why we want to take as many reasonable steps as possible in identifying the seller (and seller identifying the buyer, for the smartest transaction) and making a reasonable attempt to determine if the weapon might be stolen or used in a crime. Also, taking a witness to a purchase would be good too.

The "no laws broken" depends on what state the sale happened in, in my state several laws were broken, and in seveal others at least 1 was broken. Know the state law

One minor clarification that I think is important.

It's not a license. It's a TAX STAMP.


Wasn't there a tea party/riot some time back about tax stamps or something.....???

Don't get me started.