I notice some survival experts/enthusiasts prefer their knives without a hand or finger guard, like the basic Mora. I have never heard a reason for it though.

anyone know why?

Thanks

Sometimes when you're creating notches by batoning the guard would get in the way. A guard is really there only for knife fighting. Butcher knives or filleting knives don't have guard and people just don't slip and cut themselves.

Frankie

A guardless knife is easier to choke up on for finer work.
The retaining sheath can be deeper for greater security in traditional materials.Many cuts can be done with a drawstroke and push cuts done two handed with one pushing against the but, as traditional done in the Saami Puukka.
That said, a dedicated SURVIVAL knife should have a lower guard.
Even the chance injury by a lifetime user can happen in a stress situation of injury, exposure to the elements, hunger, fatique or fear.
Pack a primary rough duty survival blade like a Fallkniven F1
( my personal choice.)
Once you have a fire going, that can of beans opened when you couldn't find the P 38 and a lean to set up the mora can come out to carve wooden spoons.

But its hard to use a knife to carve its own handle ... kinda like touching one's right elbow with their right hand.

I always wondered why bushcraft folks get so excited about carving spoons when I saw Gilligan create his own pedal-powered car out of a palm tree.

Takes a big, wooden cooking spoon from the kitchen, holds in a reverse grip and touches my elbow with right hand.
I've carved hadles for my Mora blade in the PSK.

When it's cold and you are losing fine motor skills due to hypothermia, a lower guard is essential, IMO.

Technically a Mora without a hand guard is a little more responsive if you are carving or making notches. I used to grind off my hand guards, but lately I skip this step. Those who are scared to cut themselves should definitely not grind them off, all others it is purely optional.

Or when you are wearing thick gloves. I've trashed a lot of gloves on SAKs.

In an ideal world, yes. When hypothermia sets in, judgement is often also impaired, reaction times are also much slower. Things aren't always this cut and dried in the real world.

Bushcraft and survival are different things. Related, but different.

For bushcraft give me a nice hand made wooden handled guardless carbon steel knife in a leather sheath - a thing of beauty I can enjoy using

For survival give me rubber, stainless steel, kydex and every feature available so that I have a safety margin when tired cold hurt etc. (and as we are talking survival, lets also hope I have a knife on me when disaster strikes!)

Agreed.



This has been my survival kit knife for many years. Its a shame about the lousy sheath, but for I've added a velcro ratainer that surrounds the grip and wrapped the main sheath body in paracord. Eventually I might form a kydex sheath for it, but for now I wanted idiot proof. The first time I scaled more than one fish in a sitting (a lucky day!) with a wood handled knife, I realized rubber grips or scales were in my future.

Oh, and I spend a lot of time near the coast, so stainless steel is a necessary concession to durability. My Grandfather's Puukko wasn't fairing well on my trips near the shore, so I keep it well oiled and at home as a collector's piece now, and pack stainless from now on.

I'm not real sure how "bushcraft" is defined, but if you are out bushcrafting and things go to pot and turn it into a survival situation, you'd better have the best blade for the job with you at that time. Unless one wants to pack two fixed blade knives with them all the time, the blade you have with you has to do whatever needs to be done...

Here are some Moras with guards, though the text is telling:

"Knives with guards are often used by Scouts and other children in Scandinavia. It is something of a rite of passage when the child is considered skilled and careful enough to remove the guard."

That's just it. Situations are never cut and dried. Neither you nor I can possibly anticipate all survival situations. That's the real world.

I've been around hypothermic people, and have been hypothermic myself. It's one thing to say that you should put the knife away, but when you feel yourself slipping, some quick action can make all the difference. Some people have greatly impaired judgement as they start getting colder. I'm not talking about cutting slivers of wood either, it's interesting what conclusions you automatically jump to. If you can make fire without a knife while being hypothermic, good for you.

In any event, there are plenty of knives out there that do have good lower guards that protect, yet don't prevent choking up and fine work. As another poster noted, I'm all about stacking the deck in my favor.

Hand guards are mostly there for when your using a stabbing motion with enough enthusiasm to cause the hand to slip. Or to keep an opponents blade from sliding into your hand in a knife fight.

Not much call for stabbing things if your not using the knife as a weapon and such knife-on-knife fights are rare even in desperate close-quarter conflicts. Those situations are fixtures in movies and fantasy novels but not common enough to worry about in real life.

In real life the knife is much more likely to be used for housekeeping, food preparation, and general utility than as a weapon. In practical use a hand guard is superfluous and likely to get in the way. Usually it just makes the knife bulkier and heavier than it needs to be.

Skinning, scraping and carving it can be an advantage to have a knife that will lay flat so you can use the length of the edge. A hand guard tends to get in the way in such situations. As does the acute point on many spear point and false edge military designs. Usually a moderately sized single edged, drop-point knife without a hand guard is more practical.

If the worry is getting and keeping a grip on the knife because your hands are frozen a more practical solution is to have a knife with a loop of sturdy cord attached to its pommel. The loop is sized to be caught by the little finger and wrapped around the back of the hand. This reinforces the grip on the knife and eliminates any chance the knife will slide while allowing the knife to be released easily. Far more practical than any guard.

Using mittens, which don't allow access to the little finger, the cord goes around the hand first and is wrapped around the thumb once. It is a little less secure but still more effective than a guard.

I feel the same as Art, a guard is a trait of a fighting type and or military knife. A guard is not a necessity on an outdoor/bushcraft/survival knife.
You can buy all tha Ka-Bars, AF Survival knives and Gerbers you can haul in the motorhome, as long as you're happy. In many regards a guard or no guard is a matter of personal choice and opinion. Try using the knife for some of the potential camp/survival/bushcraft tasks and see what you prefer.
A good mixed choice is the Grohmann #3 Boat Knife, it has no guard but due to the design the user is fairly well protected so a guard is not needed. You can still do the fine work because it is easy to handle.
As for Hypothermia, unless you get submerged in cold water suddenly, you should be able to avoid hypothermia by proper use of clothing and shelter systems. Don't leave home without the proper gear.

Now I'm confused. I thought the RSK MK3 had a guard at the bottom. Ritter himself calls it a "half-guard". Does that make it less good as a survival knife?

'Less good' than what? the MK 3 has an ergonomic handle, fancy talk for it feels good in most hands, although Mors Kochanski critiqued the checkering when shown one. And you can index it, another fancy word for 'I can tell which end is up while cutting my way to freedom from my captor's yurt tent at night and not look stupid (again in the dark)trying to force the spine to cut felt and complaining about the fancy metallurgy.
Of course, If we HAD a fighting knife, we wouldn't be a prisoner.
Luke Skywalker's original light sabre is up for auction this weekend in Hollywood. It lacks a guard, indexing and even a sheath! it looks like those cheap torches ( flashlights)at the Megamart survival kits for $49.99.
But I digress. It's less good for what? clearing landmines if you crash in a warzone? You better buy Fallkniven's knife designed for that purpose, or buy a good long bayonet.
Impressing some survival guru? Well, definitely, do not show up with a Ritter MK 3 when you REALLY need an;atax,tracker,bushcrafter or battlemistress.
MK3 is lousy for cutting grass and vines, bettter buy a cheap Tramontina.
Building a igloo? Anyone have a carpenter's saw?
ALL KNIVES are compromises, or designed with parameters of perceived need and use.
We have the greatest selection of knives today than any other period in pre and history.
Hand a bunch of 440A Indian made fantasy swords to the greeks at Troy.
You would be elevated to God status.

Got my Tramontina in the mail the other day...the compromising continues...

John E

On that subject I have just acquired a Benchmade model 10502 in 440C. To me, this is the knife that the MK3 should have been.

http://www.benchmade.com/products/product_detail.aspx?model=10502

Benchmade's 440C is light years ahead of anything else I have ever used. Might be something to do with their tempering process.



Talking of the Greeks at Troy and the Bronze v 440A Steel:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bronze

Came across this when I did a throught exercise.

Proof positive that there as many opinions regarding the "right" knife as there is opinions on the "right" gun, car, camper, mythical beasts come to rule one's TSHTF nightmares. To each his / her own.

If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

Don't know, as far as a practical utility knife goes I would feel very comfortable with a simple Scandinavian knife without a guard. If you ask the Russians, they treat the Finnish puukko as a helluva stabbing weapon at close quarters (The Finns taught them first hand during the Winter War 1939-40) and I guess you could try dig a landmine with it as well if you really had to. Your insurance probably doesn't cover that though so I wouldn't do it if I were you.

Still, out in the woods having a somewhat bigger blade is an advantage if you can afford the bulk. I like to wear a Kabar on my belt and a folder for smaller tasks. A Kabar is just effective enough as a hacking tool to cut shelter poles and the like without having to resort to an axe. Besides, I admit it's just a damn macho knife that I wouldn't feel bad about holding in my hand if SHTF. Which is just a little more than I could say for a Mora.

I don't think anybody is going to recommend just one knife, certainly not anybody on this forum.

I think I have managed to cut myself [nothing major - yet] either using or sharpening every knife I own, guard or no guard. I tell myself it is part of a process of learning to respect limits: mine and those of the sharps.

These 2800 year old swords and spearheads were dug up a few miles away. Even today they are pretty impressive and elegantly designed swords and spearheads up close. They just need new edges worked so as to bring them back to a useful sword or spearhead.

Replicas and a workshop course to manufacture your own bronze sword is available at http://www.bronze-age-craft.com/

RSK Mk3 vs Rant Drop-point ...

--Though I don't own one (I have the Mk3 instead) I see the newer style BM Rant drop-point as a very nice knife for survival. It does have the features I'd look for, but ...

--I much prefer the exposed tang on the Mk3. It gives me a sense of confidence that the handle is REALLY full tang.

--I much prefer the G10 handle on the Mk3. I don't carr for the rubbery handled knives.

--I prefer the screws on the handle - so I can swap it out with the orange G10 slabs ... if DR ever can get those out. I'm waiting patiently, just like I did for the Mk3.

--I prefer the metal half-guard for strength - and I do prefer having some kind of guard.

--I've liked the deep blade shape on the Mk1's & Mk3. That feature is actually what made me buy my first Mk1 years ago.

--I'm glad that DR didn't thin the spine of the blade just behind the drop-point - like the Rant has. I suppose the thinning would improve stabbing efficiency, but that is not what my knife is used for. OK, I might have stabbed a watermelon to start slicing it, but that's about it.

--I really like the stonewashed finish on the Mk3. Doug says it offers extra corrosion protection - maybe, but I think it also just looks really nice.

--I may be one of the few that actually likes the Mk3 sheath over other possibilities. I like the attachment options it provides. But then again, I don't typically carry the knife on-belt, but rather in or on pack.

Nice discussion of the MK3.

Ok fair comment. My absolute preferred knife in a TSTF situation is a Fallkniven F1. I have certain concerns regarding what I want the knife to do. No least of whom is the ability to dig, pry under bark etc and being able to stab with it. In situations where bodging up a spear to deal with large predators may be nessesary.

Less good as a bushcraft knife/survival than the same knife would be without the guard. Sorry, I thought what I meant would be obvious from the context.

Is it the guard that makes it so?

I don't really see what the drawback of the guard is, nor do I think the MK3 is a fighting knife because it has one. it seems more like it helps with any kind of pushing motion towards the point.

"Knives with guards are often used by Scouts and other children in Scandinavia..."

Don't get to concerned about dribble like this unless you are into carving. If your fundamental reason for having the knife is for a "Wilderness Survival Situation" then you want a Knife that will help you Survive. If the guard helps you or does not hinder you in anyway then leave it on. Silly quotes about the likes and dislikes of Scandinavian Scouts are particularly irrelevant when concerned with what makes a good usable survival knife to the average person.

The RSK Mk3 has a half guard for the same reason I prefer a half guard of some sort on all my knives, safety. EOD

I have never found a well-designed half-guard to create any problems using the knife.

Whether one believes a guard of any sort is a good thing, a bad thing, right or wrong, or simply irrelevant, is a personal choice. For survival use *I* prefer to err on the side of caution and safety. YMMV

The following comment is not directed at you, but in regard to some of the posts in this thread, and much of the discussion on the forum. Whatever you believe does NOT make you right or others wrong. Arguing for your point of view is good. Implying or suggesting others are wrong, stupid or otherwise ill-equipped if they disagree, is not appropriate. A wee bit of tolerance and adherence to our Rules and Courtesies and participating in civil discourse in this regard would be appreciated. Let your arguments be persuasive in and of themselves.

Wow, five days on this thread...

People chose the knife that is right for them. If you are buying them for a group, find, debate and banter. But about the only people who buy for groups like that are the military- we aren't. We can buy what works right for US, no one else. I like the Ka-Bar Mk II and a variety of folders. The only time I've ever told someone that a knife was a bad choice was when the knife itself was materially difficent, like a three dollar flea market special.