Hello all,

Any thoughts on a fuel source for disasters that can be stored at home safely and lasts a long time? Preferably not propane.

Well, assuming that you are talking fuel for cooking, the safest and easiest to store would probably be an alcohol fueled stove. You can even use common rubbing alcohol in them, altho it doesn't burn as well as proper fuel. Only other cooking fuels that come readily to mind would be "Coleman" fuel and wood...

So how safe is Coleman fuel to store? Do I need to be concerned with it exploding on me? Forgive my ignorance..

Just wondering why you're not too hot on propane?

My wife doesn't feel comfortable with propane around. I'm trying to look for something that I can store and have minimal worry/upkeep.

I realize all fuels are dangerous but looking for a compromise.

Coleman fuel (also known as white gas) is, chemically speaking, very close to the gasoline you buy at the pump, without all the additives your car likes and the government requires, so storing it provides the same difficulties and dangers of storing a can of gas for a lawnmower.

Most estimates I've seen say that it starts to go bad after a year. That said, backpacking stoves are less complicated than engines, and if you know how to clean and maintain your stove you can burn white gas that is much older. My record is five years with no clogging, and only a slight drop-off in performance. Of course, I have no idea how long the stuff had been in the can when I bought it. I wonder if there's a date on the can . . .

I used to buy the gallon cans of Coleman fuel, but have recently switched to the ultra-pure stuff from MSR (http://www.msrgear.com/stoves/superfuel.asp). It's much more expensive, but white gas stoves are so efficient that the cost is still minor. Smaller cans equal less waste, and the higher purity makes my stove a real rocket. I can tell by the sound which type of fuel I'm burning, and I get faster boils using less fuel.

Both wood and charcoal are pretty inert and easy to store. And please remember to cook outside.

I use wood. I have this grill...
http://woodflame.com/en/delecto.php
http://www.snappdragon.com/woodflame-grill-delecto-p-9.html

for my all my grilling, but it is perfect for disasters. It was pricy, but it's the only grill I've ever had, it has lasted for years, and I never pay for fuel or have any concern about storage of fuels, obviously. It gets super hot, sears food and keeps in the moisture.

It uses chunks of hardwood, and has a fan that adds air to the fire box and makes the wood burn very efficiently, powered by either battery or AC adapter. I gather the wood from my backyard (full of hickory & oak trees), saw and hatchet to size. One set of D batteries is enough for a several months of cooking. One handful of wood is enough to cook a meal for 4.

I have taken it camping and on vacation. It's coming with me if I ever have to bug out. I have even used a fresnel lens and dried grass to start the fire in the combustion chamber!

Feel free to PM me with any questions.

You might want to look these over
Propane

and this
Gasoline

Before you choose to store fuel in your home.

Have a nice day.

I'm still using the gallon can of Coleman fuel that I bought in 1987. It's still going strong. I use it in my MSR Whisperlite and my 1960's vintage two burner Coleman camping stove.

In the States it is called Sterno. We keep a case on hand to use with chafing dishes. They are safe for indoor use. This is my plan for short term disaster cooking.

Thanks Desperado, I have no plans on storing gasoline and I saw the propane link. I was about to buy a bunch of propane to keep on hand when I saw that and decided to rethink it.

Sterno sounds like the cheapest way to go for now until I get one of those stoves GrilledBison mentioned. Very nice that grill. Thank you for the info Bison!

Izzyjg99,

Can I keep my sterno in old detergent containers like the gasoline guy? Just kidding!

A solid fuel is probably the safest way to go, although airborne particulate dust can become highly explosive. Charcoal is very safe to store and has a high heat output; actually has a higher fuel energy density than even Hexamine. It is relatively cheap compared to the refined fuels such as Colemans or Paraffin and can be manufactured easily using bio fuel resources in the long term. It may require looking at a 3rd world solution for your charcoal stove though, such as the designs used extensively in Africa.

Gyapa Stove is one of the more fuel efficient designs - http://www.hedon.info/docs/EnterpriseWords-charcoal-stoves-Ghana.pdf

I just remembered that I have stored somewhere a gizmo called, I believe, the Safari Cooker, or something like that. The TV ads of long ago touted it for tailgate parties. Several tapered sheet metal sleeves that go together, along with a couple of grates, to make the stove. Fuel is, believe it or not, sheets of newspaper, crumpled into balls. Nothing else! It only takes something like nine (9) sheets of newspaper to BBQ a few hamburger patties! Newspaper, now that is a save fuel to store. Sadly, you can't even find them on E-bay (or at least not the last time I looked). But that little thing actually works, and works pretty well...

I have the exact stove mentioned by OBG. Picked it up 10 years ago at a yard sale and got a "smoker " as well. Both are still cookin' and smokin'.
The stove was in it's orig, cardboard box...like a box that boots would come in. We use it at least a dozen times a year,
Fuel is cheap,plentiful,and usually legible. Some buddies have looked for them...no luck either. Pull it out and use it a couple of times...Be Prepared.

I heard that zip-lock bags are the way to go for storing gasoline. Double just kidding!!

I have used white gas stoves, Svea 123 is my favorite, when I was camping and still keep it, and a gallon of white gas, on hand. Camping alone a quart of gas would last about a week more or less. Boiling water to avoid having to treat the water uses gas and colder temperatures always made me use more. YMMV.

More recently I have gone to propane for emergency fuel. A single-burner stove, a single-mantle lantern and a small catalytic heater (all of which use one pound bottles) have been my choice. Every third time I go to Wally I get a couple of bottles and have built up a good supply. The propane in small bottles has advantages like quick and easy starting, reliability, no-mess, and effectiveness going for it.

Camping I have also used a Zip stove. Now known as the Sierra Stove. This is essentially a burner that uses pretty much any solid fuel that boosts output by adding a tiny blower that runs for many hours on a small battery. Use a rotating pair of rechargeable batteries and a solar charger and you should be set for a long time.

These units burn pretty much anything you can fed into it and they are much better, faster and more efficient, than a traditional campfire. Scrap wood pallets, available around most retail stores, chopped into kindling work fine. Pine cones work really well. Twigs or newspaper rolled tightly into pencil sized sticks and cut short are okay but they burn quick.

Here in the SE I could run this unit virtually forever on the limbs that fall in the yard. Worse case, broken leg where I can't leave the porch, I chop up that coffee table I never liked. Should hold me for a week or two. No shortage of stuff I could feed it.

The only down side is that it doesn't simmer well at all (fires of hell or nothing), it produces soot and ash that can make a mess, and it has to be tended pretty much constantly when it is being used. You can't put a pot of pilaf on and walk away for ten minutes without it running out of fuel it has to be fed every five minutes or so. This is okay for reheating the pot of coffee, where I can stuff in enough fuel to bring it to a boil and running out of fuel just saves me a step during cleanup.

http://www.zzstove.com/

I keep my options open by having all of them.

I think this is a sign you need to go camping more often. :-]

By George, you're absolutely right! I shall inform my wife.

Actually, I'm more of a backpacker. The butane/isobutane/propane blend canister stoves are so convenient that I wind up using a canister stove for "Three Season" use. The only time I bring out my old Whisperlite anymore is for winter backpacks where the temps are below freezing. Oddly, I can't find too many friends willing to go on winter backpacks with me. I think the idea of camping directly on snow is intimidating to most people. Actually, it's a lot more comfortable than sleeping on dirt, rocks, roots, etc, and with the right equipment (two sleeping pads, one on top of another; a 4 season tent; and a 0F sleeping bag), it's quite comfortable. I'm looking forward to getting out there this winter!

HJ

IMO, for your situation (if your budget allows), Everclear 191proof alcohol is the best you're gonna get. Burns hot, food grade, and has multiple uses (first aid, antibacterial, etc.) Second best would be Sterno. Or, buy some bottles of gelled alcohol, what they use for the burners in hot buffet catering. Pour it into a cat food can or similar and you got a homemade sterno can.

Don't forget the "HOBO" stove, "Cut 1" strips of cardboard, roll tightly and place inside a catfood can or tuna can (your choice)
melt some parafin (sp)wax and pour over the cardboard, burns slow
like sterno but, it does work. I also use butane stoves I take it with me when the family and I do mountain duty for our SAR team, (we go one weekend a month during the summer).


Mike

You might try this..
http://www.sportsmansguide.com/cb/cb.asp?a=288270
I have one and they work well

The Swedish army mess kit is another good stove. It uses alcohol which is cheap and stores safely. I have one of these in my truck. I have made coffee (of course) eggs,pancakes, rice and noodles.

Looks like a tommy cooker on steroids...

When we were all debating the safety of Coleman fuel on another post, the alcohol stoves came up frequently. I'm going to look into those, we used to burn denatured alcohol in a coffee can full of sand to keep warm in the back of a truck. Safe for enclosed spaces or not? We had no ill effects but the Super Cat site states all alcohol stoves emit CO2.

I use a Coleman multifuel stove, worst case, you could drain some unleaded fuel out of your auto.

But I also have a portable propane 2 burner and the motor home 2 burner.

In So Cal, and AZ, where I have lived, temps got >100 and I never had an issue with the propane storage or the Coleman fuel. Or gasoline for that matter.

Maybe I just jinxed myself.


Edit- we didn't talk about the alcohol stoves on the Coleman fuel post- my posts runneth amuck.

I'd still suggest propane. Coleman fuel eventually goes bad. I've had containers of fuel that went bad in a year and wouldn't burn in the stove. Your mileage will vary.

As others have said, the fuel is gasoline, and storing gasoline is a problem. Propane in containers is at least as safe as gasoline, maybe safer, but whatever your volatile fuel, is should not be stored in the house and should be stored where the fumes can waft away.

I'd suggest asking your wife to do some research on safe storage of fuels and make a decision on what she wants - compare safety and long-term storage. I'd be she'll choose propane. I used to live in the country and we had (at different times) propane and butane as our fuel for home heating and cooking. Butane was stored in an underground tank, and propane above ground. Millions of people get their home heat and cooking from gas stored on their own property, as we did.

Here in the UK Coleman fuel/white gas is not so readily available as in the USA, I therefore dont use it.

Summer emergency cooking is a microwave oven worked from my PV system, or a small hotplate.

In winter I would use either a kerosene camp stove, which can be used indoors with care, or a charcoal grill, outside only of course.
At my mothers home I keep a second kerosene camp stove, and also a liard fire box, which is a substitute for a campfire, burns wood or charcoal, and uses only a little fuel.

In addition to battery lighting, I have numerous kersone lamps, and therefore useing the same fuel for cooking is desirable.

I was down at the local Adventure 16 (a mountaineering/hiking chain local to Southern California) last night. I talked to one of the staff who I have spoken to before; she's very knowledgable. She indicated that Coleman fuel is good for up to a year, but that it declines in heat output and produces more soot thereafter. She explained that the evaporation-condensation cycle within the gas can causes the white gas to start getting thicker. She said that decanting the white gas into smaller containers with a much smaller air space would preserve the white gas longer.

Interestingly, she said that MSR white gas should NOT be used in Coleman stoves or lanterns. Apparently, Coleman adds a rust inhibitor to it's fuel but MSR does not. According to her, Coleman stoves and lanterns will rust without the rust inhibitor.

This sounds right, but I haven't verified it. Any feedback on her advice?

Long ago my dad used to get white gas from a distributor, I doubt very seriously that any rust inhibitor was in that stuff. I (well, actually my ex now) still have the Coleman lantern that we used it in. One day I fired it up for the first time in probably twenty years, using the fuel that was still in it, and the mantel which was still intact. Worked like a champ...

You should look into Alcohol stoves. Safe to store and easy to find fuel for. HEET from any gas station or denatured alcohol from the paint section from any walmart. Stored forever too.

You can even make your own stove with minimal tools for a true emergency.

http://zenstoves.net/

After reading this post, and going back and doing a search on previous ETS posts in regards to alcohol stoves, I built a few Super Cats over the weekend (I have lots of cats so plenty of empty cans to experiment on).

I was amazed at the output and the simplicity to build. Durability is an issue, but for the weight, if all you do is boil water, for instance, I don't think they can be beat.

Just google "alcohol stove" and you can find dozens of designs. The zenstove.net website is great for downloading hole templates and also has the designs of many of the most popular versions.

If you want durable, build them out of tuna cans.

I intend to experiment with several different cans, to see which by composition or height/width vaporizes and burns the best for the cookware I have.
Tuna is definitely one of the cans I have set aside, along with a steel mushroom can, and of course different hole configurations and a sturdier/wider can as a wind shield for the cat cans.

But the utter simplicity of the cat can (3 oz) is remarkable.

"...Durability is an issue..."

If you want durable in a home made alcohol stove, make a poor man's White Box Stove from one of the aluminum beer bottles. Those bottles, and the resulting stove, and much tougher than an aluminum can. Stove works better too...

I found this link from zenstove.net that Jakam directed me to earlier but if you haven't, check out http://jwbasecamp.com/Articles/SuperCat/index.html

Just for cat stoves, he has seemingly researched every detail from hole placement to can materials. It's very well done.

Yep, that's the guy- I made my first one by eye, no measuring, just a hole punch and a pair of pliers, was boiling water in literally less than ten minutes from removing the gluey stuff to pouring the alcohol. It didn't burn perfectly (evenly), and I used a wide vessel (old aluminum camp pot), and still got results.

Now I want to go back and really refine it, like he did.

FYI- I got a template for his exact hole pattern off of zenstoves.

IMHO propane is one of the SAFEST fuels you can keep around your house to use for cooking. (Aside from wood) You could hold a blow torch to a propane tank and nothing would happen for a bit, if you do that to wood even it could ignite and start a big fire. You can move propane easily, take it with you easily, etc.

We use propane already so in a disaster it's what we will continue to use. If we need to we could cook on our wood stove too.

IMHO, charcoal and newspaper and matches is a good back-up and a mini-bbq. Not really anything there that will be unsafe to store... no lighter fluid needed.

I'd go for a wood burner. Can always find wood, dried grass, etc to burn. As for the various gases and such, well that could be problematic.

For the most part coleman fuel will be good when you need it.. if your using it for a lamp or stove.. kep in mind that is not the same as an internal combustion engine.. so start stocking up..

Next is Kerosene.. i know in larger cities its not as common but up here in ND we can get it at the pump.. so you can get 5 gals at a time for, it runs about the same price a diesel(little cheaper but not much) There are additives that take the smell out and can acutually smell like vanilla or whatever.. so no worries there, plus it is very stable and when stored properly (tightly sealed in the proper container) it will last basically forever..

Propane is great but you have a large investment on cylinders but if you watch yard sales and stuff, you can pick some up cheaply from the people who are not thinking about the future, you can have enough on hand to run the grill for a long time. and with Propane as long as the cylinder doesnt leak it will last forever which makes it a great choice for the emergency generator if you can store that amount..

Coal also lasts forver but you need to keep quite a bit on hand to last you.. a friend of mine use to heat his house with coal and it would take like 5 tons for a winter here in ND.. but that is heating the whole house, keeping it 70 degerees, not survival.. so its do-able and safe.. the wife shouldnt squawk to much about that..

Wood is good, should be seasoned a while to burn the best and once again its safe, but doesnt last forever... it can get over dry which will cause it to burn very fast. but you should have some way to use wood so you can burn the furniture and stuff if you need to.. a barrel stove or something..oh and pick up a few axes and be able to sharpen it..

Much like I always come back from Home Depot forgetting to buy something important, I never remember to scan yard sales for propane tanks. Thanks for the reminder.

I have enough Camping Gaz cartridges for my camp stove and Denatured alcohol for my White Box stove that I am fine for many, many meals but short on the propane. Maybe 7 gallons total. I think I could get a couple weeks with that on a single burner but in a 'worse/worser/worst' case situation I would not be wasting it on the full BBQ.

Make sure that the yard sale propane tank has the triangular shaped knob. That indicates that it has an OPT valve in it. Those with round knobs can not legally be refilled now...

I actually had the same thought after I wrote my post. Where I live there is a system/company called Blue Rhino (?) that stocks a propane exchange in front of gas stations and some grocery stores. You take a empty tank to them and exchange for a full one. The cost is $18 +/- $2 for fuel costs. Its a bit cheaper to fill an existing tank at a propane filler.

I would buy a tank at a yard sale and then do an exchange.

In WW2 North Africa the amoured units used to cook directly on their vehicles, that steel plating absorbing a LOT of heat.
A stove just for disaster relief has been in hte news lately. it's called a SOLAR OVEN. Now there is a storage problem solved.
All fuels; wood,charcoal, chemical are nothing more than stored up sunlight. Why not go to the source?

"...SOLAR OVEN..."

We are currently stuck in the San Joaquin valley of CA, haven't seen the sun in weeks. I hate fog...

I went to the Cardinals-Rams NFL game Sunday. We tailgated for several hours pre game. I am not exaggerating, I walked around and 85% of the grills that I saw were the exact same Red Colman Road Trip Grill

Blew me away. I suppose because it folds down it has its benefits for portability to games. People were grilling for 3-4 hours on a 16 oz propane tank. I have a large propane grill at home and a camp stove in my travel kit, but this info could help someone.

Also, and this really blew me away. I saw about a dozen people with Direct TV satellite systems running games on flat screens. I suppose if someone had DTV they could find a forum that explained how to power the unit off a generator. It would solve the analog/digital issue in another thread.

It would be a Qwik Cook Grill... Endorsed by Dick Butkus.

And there are a few available on e-bay as of this posting.

OGRE

Comm, am I missing something? The power source wouldn't have anything to do with the digital/analog signal? I have used a satellite receiver in my motor home with no issues, but that's now, what would the change in 2009 do to affect that?

Jakam, on another thread in this category (Nat. Dist & Lrg-Scale Emer) there is a discussion regarding how you will get your disaster information when television goes digital in February. Were talking about most likely tornado and hurricane stuff and the power goes out.

While we all consider radio and smart phones a viable means, many who have been using small analog t.v.'s with antennas will be out of luck as will people who use the t.v. capabilities on emergency radios.

My observation was that there are people bringing digital satellite systems to football stadiums to watch games. So if someone has a digital satellite and they lose power after February, they may not be in such bad shape if they are the person whose back up is analog t.v.

They could figure out how to configure their sat. dish, receiver and home television to run off a generator system.

AAhhh- I get it, I was thinking the you were stating the reverse, that their mobile satellite rig was going to be obsolete.

I replaced my old TV/VCR combination in my RV with a flat screen, by chance, last year. So I am covered as well, both base camp and mobile.

My RV runs off of a DC inverter, but they could probably do the same, or if they had a newer generation generator that had a stable power flow, plug it directly, eh?

I just saw an old stove on craigslist... it can run on gas or.. are you ready... WOOD! Talk about old school It had 4 or so large burners and an oven

If you are truly worried about what to cook with for disaster preparedness, learn to use anything available. MSR has a good multi-fuel stove. It is not the easiest to use, but it works in all conditions I have encountered, from 10,000 feet in 0 degrees F and high winds to jungle at sea level.

Just practice before the disaster happens so you know what you will need. A tin can in a wood fire has always worked for me as well.