I am looking at purchasing a pair of of radios primarily for backpacking in a group and secondly as an addition to my BOB. I have narrowed my choice down to a combination FRS/GMRS hanset. Since I was a bit unfamilar with the technology, I did some browsing and research.

FRS (Family radio service)
- up to 0.5 watts power and roughly 2 mile range in theory
- roughly 1 mile range in practise in line of sight
- range affected by terrain and tree cover
- channels 1-7 dedicated for FRS
- channels 8-14 shared use with GMRS

GMRS (General mobile radio service)
- higher power and greater range than FRS
- varies from a handset to mobile station /w or /wo repeaters
- up to 5 watts with handset
- up to 50 watts with mobile
- range up to 25 miles with mobile or more with repeater
- generally requires a radio license except Canada allows up to 2 watts handsets without a license
- 2 watt handsets range has 25-30 miles in theory (mountain top to mountain top!)
- 2 watt handsets range of 2-3 miles in practise
- range over open water is roughly 7 miles for a 6' person to talk to another 6' person due to curvature of the earth and line of sight
- channels 15-22 dedicated for GMRS
- bigger, longer antenna is better because radio wave is about 12.5" tall

MURS (Multi-Use Radio Service)
- de-licensed used primarily for business for location service

Privacy codes (interference illimination codes)
- used in combination with main 22 channels to provide further division and isolation of signal; does not create a private channel but mearly eliminates a lot of the other cross-talking on the same channel to improve intelligibility
- 121 codes usually but some handsets may have more
- channel 1, code 1 is the default setting out of the box but may also be the busiest

Options:
Weather NOAA channel monitoring
Headset jacks
GPS / Radio combo ie. Garmin Rhinos
VOX activation
Noise filters
Keypad lock
Scanner
Calling and paging ability

Is it better to use AA or AAA or lithium ion batteries?
Battery life - varies from 11 to 20 hours depending on combination and type of battery.
Charger options? Double radio charger? USB charger or 120v
I have an inverter to charge items from my vehicle so it matters little to me which way to charge.

Long term storage:
Should I place one in my BOB and one in my vehicle kit or both in the BOB or both in the car kit. If AA or AAA then I would likely use Eneloop batteries for long term storage.

I am looking at a pair of Cobra LI72002WXVP radios that have a claimed range of 45 km, 22 channels, 142 privacy codes, weather channels, 10 NOAA weather channels, VOX, vibrate alert, Hi/Hed/Low Power, water resistant, 2-port charger, L-ion battery, programmable scan, belt clip.

Your opininons and advice????

Well, my advice - start with a pair of $24.99 Unidens or some sort of lower range walkie talkie. See how much you use them. I think these are good for short distances and sometimes within buildings, very unpredictable out it the woods - line of site only. Frankly I don't find the range estimates to be helpful, you might hear someone clear as a bell miles from the trailhead, or just static a hundred yards up a hill. And the GMRS don't really do you much good unless you're in an area with alot of talkers. If you intend to talk to someone in a BOB type situation, stick to a common channel, if there's chatter there jump up or down 2 channels. Having NOAA weather channels is always handy. Keep it simple. A couple handsets that run on AAs is all I would suggest.

Squeezing distance or performance out of walkie talkies will only get you so far, better imo to invest in a ham license and HTs with some real reach, especially via repeaters.

OK, first, so called "Privacy Tones" are generally refered to a PL Tones (a Motorola Trademark) or in technical terms CTCSS

They do NOT make your conversation "private" as anyone can listen in - what they do is make your radio quiet - picture Your party, and my party are having radio converstions on the same channel - you can't do it at the same time, - you "step on" each other, what it DOES do is prevent your squeltch from opening unless the right PL tone is received - so your party won't hear us (unless you hit the channel monitor button) and we won't hear you

Second - do NOT believe published ranges. Those numbers are under ideal conditions

FRS - nice, fun, cheap, low power, mandated maximum ERP (effective radiated power) - meaning things like the sntennas are "fixed" - you can't change out for a better antenna etc. The nice part? No license

GMRS - Now you get into fun - 5 watts for a hand held is more a "technical" limit. A 5 watt HT (again, a Motorola trademark - many many VHF/UHF radio terms in common use are Motorola trademarks) is/can be a fairly serious radio. GMRS allows for repeaters, which can give you REAL range, if you find a repeater you can use. It is very very similar to police radios, and VHF/UHF Ham Radio.

The bad part? You legally need to have a license - it's one license for your entire family. There is actually some enforcement of this, particularly on the repeater channels

As for radios - I'm a radio "Biggot" - I like big, heavy duty radios that work when everyone else around is getting "intermod" (a kind of distortion - you hear it, you'll know it), so I tend to carry "commercial" radios, The problem here is they are NOT legal for FRS (The ones I use ARE legal class accepted for GMRS), have to be programmed for the GMRS frequencies by a "radio shop" (or someone with the right programming gear), they can be expensive (VERY expensive if buying new), they tend to be heavy, etc. The advantage? They WORK, and you don't end up having to hold them to your ear to hear them

Another option? Take your ham radio license test - if you study for say, 2-3 weeks of nights, passing your Technician license exam isn't hard, and it opens a whole world of radio 'stuff' to you. The exam is currently $14 ($15 after the first of the year). No more morse code on the exams. The down part - every person who wants to use the radio has to pass

I have a few different types but what gets used the most are my Motorola 6220 model FRS radios.
IMO the best bang for your buck. I can normally get a dependable
3/4-1 mile range hiking in the Sierras.

We've tried FRS but in mountians and woods the range drops to where you can hand signal the other person easier.

AA or lithium ion is a personal preference, some people like the light weight of lithium ion but I on't want to have a dedicated charger or battery with a ~3 year life span, I get 10 years from NiMH AA's

FRS is my grown up version of the old walkie talkies we had as kids that operated down in the HF spectrum somewhere (below 30 Mhz). They are smaller, more powerful, and generally hold up better, plus they have lots of channels, but really not a big improvement. We used to pack our old walkies around with us in the big woods once in a while. We were mindful of the bulk of our loads, so when planning a 10-20 mile excursion where we weren't likely to be any further apart than we could yell to each other, the walkies didn't always come with us. Same holds true today for our FRS, although because they've gotten so small they are a lot easier to pack along, but it seems we encounter more and more high traffic areas, where we can't find a clean channel to use most of the time. Privacy codes aren't anything more than a low frequency tone the radio transmits along with your voice, so if someone is already on the channel or is monitoring it for traffic, you will either get interference, or they will hear everything you say.

GMRS works much the same, except for the inclusion of repeaters, which makes a whole world of change. We've set up GMRS repeater system on mobile platforms up in the hills and used GMRS handhelds to talk to each other from 25 miles apart. You can't do that with FRS handhelds. The beauty is no one else gets to use that channel while we are, so no interference, although they can still listen to our traffic (unless we switch on the encryption mode. Then they won't know what we are saying).

FRS are getting so cheap now I wouldn't waste money on lower power stuff. For $100 you can get a pair of rechargables that run at the maximum ERP and last a good 4 hours of regular use per charge. Heck, you can even get FRS radios that transmit GPS data so you can see where your buddies are on an LCD display. How cool is that?!!!

You can encrypt in GMRS??? Why can't amateur radio then? Sheesh!

You can't encrypt radio communications with commercial radios. It's illegal and commercial equipment isn't capible of it. That is only something the military and select government offices can do. Even the police can't do it. It is prohibited by the FCC. Most people who think they are using a encrypted, secure, private, etc channel are simply using a digital filter or trunked frequency.

FRS, GMRS, MURS, HAM (VHF/UHF) etc are all in the clear. The digital "filters" or "voice privacy scrambler" is only the CTCSS or DCS tone. It helps you filter out others communication. It doesn't keep yours private. If you are set to the same tone you can hear the communication. But so can everyone who is not using any tone (ex. channel 5 privacy channel 0) or anyone with a scanner.

Even police, airports and most government communications that may be on digitally trunked frequencies can be monitored with a digital trunking scanner. Again, the FCC prohibits anything encrypted from going over the airwaves and most radio equipment can't do it anyway.

"FRS is my grown up version of the old walkie talkies we had as kids that operated down in the HF spectrum somewhere (below 30 Mhz). They are smaller, more powerful, and generally hold up better, plus they have lots of channels, but really not a big improvement."


The walkie talkies we had as kids were CB's and they actually worked. I remember talking from the valley to someone up on the side of the mountain with those cheap 9v battery powered walkies and am extermely disapointed that FRS can't do that with more modern technology. Yes GMRS can and most people just buy the combos and talk on the GMRS channels without the license.

Actaully police can. There are many people on the scanner forums that complain after uying the r$500 digital scanner that ther area started encrypting so they can't listen again.

Ahah, sounds like a challange for my PIC board..

I can recommend the Midland GXT800 or GXT900 radios. Those are available from Amazon and other sources.
I have had a set of the GXT800 "2-way radios" for a couple of years, and have been happy with them.
For the price, they seem to have a lot of features, a few of which are: can operate on GMRS or FRS, receives NOAA Weather radio, charger stand included. One "backup" feature I really like is that you can use the rechargeable battery, or power the radios with standard AA batteries.
Pay no attention to the stated 26 mile range (or whatever the package claims). You might get that range on a lake, or under special circumstances. But, in most instances, if you hike to the other side of the ridge, or generally put too many obstacles between the 2 radios, your communication will be lost.

Man, I sold all my pic stuff a few years ago, should have kept it

About 9 years ago I did a true range test with Motorola Talkabout FRS radios. The comparison was against a handheld CB radio paired with a car CB radio.

I put my father on top of the local earthen dam then drove away from him using GPS to check distance.

The CB was unusable at 1/4 mi. (summer daytime)

The Talkabouts were still working full quieting at 7 miles.(True line of sight.)

Have also used it to stay in touch with him while I climbed a mountain. He stayed in the valley bottom and fished. Probably had 2 mile range.

Any obstructions such as trees or building materials would drastically reduce range.

I don't know the specifics of the brands but FRS is really convenient and quite efficient so long as you completely comprehend the limitations of Line Of Sight.
(It's what CB should have been all along.)

Well, I was referring to Motorola's Eavesdrop Reducer Technology, which is a very basic analog inversion scrambler of sorts available on their FRS/GMRS radios (like the T6220 model). Voice inversion is an archaic and simple form of encryption, but not entirely effective. The FCC concluded there was just enough intelligence in the transmission that it wouldn't be considered illegal, but a casual listener is not going to be able to follow the conversation that well. I know because I've tried. This form of inversion is quite old, simple, and can be found in many higher end FRS/GMRS radios. Let's make this quite clear, analog inversion of this nature is not the same thing as private tone, PL tone, CTCSS, or any other control tone or digital control tone scheme. It is a processing of the audio signal that alters the content of the audio intelligence, not just adding a low frequency tone to the mix. Digital filters and trunking are something entirely different also. There are also a whole host of public agencies that can and do use some form of encryption, usually digital. DES is supposed to be only for the Federal Government use, but you will find DES units at hamfests on a regular basis. There are also a number of industrial two way communications using DVP encryption, which is perfectly legal.

Here's a site that talks a bit about basic encryption. http://www.fordyce.org/scanning/scanning_info/encrypt.html

I used to do a lot of work on DES encrypted radios for the Feds, and we had some more complicated analog encryption add-ons for a couple of metro drug and undercover units that we put together for local police departments. I also recall adding a couple of split double inversion sweep tone encryption circuits to some industrial radios, but that was way back in the 80s. Stepping into the wayback machine, I saw some pretty interesting encrypted stuff in the Navy, but I was a spook back then, and the Russians were trying everything they could think of to keep our nose out of their business.

If I had my druthers, I would use spread spectrum transmissions for all my communication needs. Who needs encryption when your signal is bouncing over a 100 Mhz band unpredictably?

I've had four of the Kenwood UBZ-LF14 FRS radios for years and they have been great.

http://www.gearqueen.com/gear/comm/2004-04-kenwood-ubz-lf14.html

This model is no longer made, but I think the replacement is the LH14. I bought my FRS radios from here: http://www.bills2way.com/ that was many years ago, but I think they're still in business. Their website is still there.

Get a high mile rating 18 or higher. Sets of these are often available on ebay, too.

Thanks for the recommendation. I also found a great website that also provided a lot of really good detail. http://www.twowayradioforum.com/forum/index.php

I see they rate the Midland GTX900 as well as the Cobra LI72002WXVP and the Motorola TALKABOUT T9500XLR very highly. The Midland seems to have more features than the Cobra model and cheaper but the Cobra model has awesome battery life. The Midland is more flexible with its power options however and can use either 4-AA or the rechargeable battery pack. The 20 "extra" channels on the Midland are actually preset FRS/GMRS channels with preset codes. Nothing more than what you already have except the quick setting of these channels! A chart mapping the channels/codes has been published on the above website.

I've got a bit more price/feature shopping to do but I expect that with Christmas around the corner, that sales of these radios may be coming very soon.

--
BTW, in Canada, we do not have the GMRS licensing restrictions you have in the States. GMRS radios up to 2 watts output (not input) do not require any licensing.

And yes, I don't believe the stated range for a moment! Not unless you are calling from mountain top to mountain top with clear line of sight!

Not exactly true - Mpst police CAN, but choose not to



There is some debate on this - IF you are using a "Known algorythem" and transmit the KEY in the clear, it seems that the FCC considers this to no longer be encrypted, but the average user is NOT capable of decoding - but, as I said, your ID and key have to go 'in the clear'



As I said, Police, Fire etc have no problem getting permission to go encrypted, it's just it's a hassle to do so, so they usually only do it for "tactical" police channels - I own at least for radios capable of AGIS encription, and folks wouldn't be buying a multi hundred dollar option if they weren't using it

Well I clearly stand corrected on the encryption component. Finding information on the web for PIC boards, NPV and AGIS is scarce, but I guess I've never been exposed to them before this. Sounds like something to read up on.

As with everything, there are problems. Most public walkie-talkies sold today are FRS/GMRS combo radios. This means they operate at 2W on GMRS and don't have a removable antenna. Older GMRS-only radios went up to 5 watts, most had removable antennas so you could put a decent on on the radio or use one on top of the house or car with a long enough cable, and some were repeatable capable. Oh, well. GMRS does not "generally" require a license in the US. A license is required. Virtually no one has one, though because of the combo radios. There are no GMRS purpose-built mobile radios being made that I'm aware of - I'd welcome information. Many of us are using commercial radios that cover the GMRS frequency but have limitations in hardware - no keypad, for example, requiring programming the frequencies and PL codes by computer.

Combo radios are a half-watt on FRS, usually 2W on GMRS, and they can't do repeater splits. The antenna is pretty sucky.

All handhelds are limited by the antenna, regardless of the wattage and service (GMRS, FRS, MURS, or ham). MURS antennas are fairly expensive because of the low demand. I bought a cheap pair from Amazon, and one failed after the first use - the transmit button stuck on, the radio wouldn't power off while the button was stuck, so I took the batteries out. Cheap radios suck, because they fail when you need them.

Someone else has explained the so-called privacy codes. You still get interference when you try to transmit. CTCSS or PL tones or privacy codes don't create a private channel, eliminate cross talk or do anything other than keeping your squelch from being broken by someone not using your tone. Louise and I go to Burning Man, and GMRS/FRS is useless because you've got a few tens of thousands of people on the couple of dozen frequencies, and it doesn't matter what your 'privacy code' is, there's someone on it.

Louise and I use GMRS a lot. My suggestion is to use the radios, instead of just sticking them in a box or car or bag somewhere. We take them with us when we fly ("Hey, hon, they just called our flight - have you got our coffee yet?"), when we travel ("Hey, hon, the tank's full. Have you got our coffee yet?"), and when we shop in those big box stores ("Hey, hon, come see these coffee mugs with flames on the sides!"). I'd suggest getting a license and actually using the radio! Wow! What a thought.

Conversely, Louise and I are amateur radio operators, too. If you want a really useable radio, get your ham license and get on the repeaters in your area. Volunteer at public events (walk-a-thons, run-a-thons, bike-a-thons) and use the radios with other hams so you get known as reliable communicators, and you can help out in disasters.

Thanks for the suggestions. I hadn't thought about volunteer events communication before.

BTW, I went and purchased the Cobra 7020s (camouflaged version) as they were on sale at Canadian Tire the other day. Reg $129 Sale $89 minus the "CT-money" credits I had = very cheap! Almost free!
http://www.cobra.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=product.display&product_id=429&category_ID=29

The Midlands do not seem to have much of a sales base here in Canada so outside of ordering from EBay, it's wasn't going to happen - I can't find them retail locally. BTW, they would have to be CSA approved before I could bring them up here anyway. As it turns out, the web sites that I checked seemed to give the nod to the Cobras over the Midlands for range (2.2 miles vs 1.5 miles in heavy urban).

I asked a co-worker of mine to compare these with a pair of business radios (Motorolas). Mind you, those units use different business frequencies but they are in the same band as the GMRS radios. I couldn't use them for general purpose stuff because the frequencies are more restricted which means even if I managed to get a hold of them, I would only be able to communicate with other business radios! Not very practical and probably not legal. They have them because of the need to penetrate into building cavities while performing maintenance work. Business are not supposed to be using GMRS radios either.

He previously tried a pair of older less capable Cobras before going with the business radios; my radios worked in all the same locations they compared them with the commercial radios! Actually these had a longer outdoor range! I was impressed that these consumer grade equipment matched the heavier business quality equipment for half the retail cost.

I researched a bit more and found out that all handhelds in Canada cannot access the repeater channels by law and the max. a handheld can be is a 2-watt ERP output. The government knew that policing the licensing of these radios would be next to impossible so instead the regulated the supplier side of the equation instead of the consumer side. The units I have are 5-watt input, 1.78 watts measured ERP which means there is headroom to go before the manufacturers actually produce a full 2-watt radio. (Most consumer grade radios are only approx 1-watt ERP despite what the manufacturers claim!) I suspect that the biggest factor in not putting a even higher quality unit is the battery usage and drain that it would take. The circuitry would have to be more efficient and the battery even larger than the 1500 mah li-ion batteries these Cobras have. The batteries in this unit are really quite large - ie about the total size of my cell-phone! They pack considerably more energy then the AA or AAA batteries the competition uses. Stand-by time is 2 days vs the 12 hours of some other units. Big brick-like radios will probably won't be as marketable as today's smaller units.

I had a pair of 14 channel, 1/2 watt, AAA battery, FRS radios a few years ago but I didn't like the range so I gave them to my brother to use at the family farm. In the wide open prairies, he does get 2 miles from those 1/2 watt units but then again EVERYWHERE is direct line of sight at the farm when you don't have any trees!

I've got to do some more real world testing of these units - they are beginning to grow on me so far! (However, eavesdropping on a couple idiots on a beer run is really not that fascinating!) The other feature I like is the NOAA weather radio (channel 1 in my area). This will be great for my backcountry hiking. Secondly, I am going to add some screen protectors so the display doesn't get all scratched up.

Privacy codes are a misnomer - all they really allow you to do is clean up the incoming signals on a channel so that you can isolate the conversation that you want to participate in. It does nothing to prevent others from listening to YOU. Although Motorola seems to have found some way of scrambling the signal so that it is less intelligible to those trying to listen in on your conversation. This also makes communication between a Motorola unit and other unit a bit more challenging (or so I've read...)

Advertising claims for range are not just wildly exaggerating the usability of the units but they border on misleading or false advertising. Something needs to be done to get them to be more honest with the consumer. So many people have returned units to stores because the hype turned out not to be true and they went away disappointed or they returned them for an even higher priced model to get a "bit more range"!
- 2 watt handsets range has 25-30 miles in theory (mountain top to mountain top!)
- 2 watt handsets range of 2-3 miles in practise
- range over open water is roughly 7 miles for a 6' person to talk to another 6' person due to curvature of the earth and line of sight

Myself and a couple friends have the Garmin Rhino's. I'll admit we haven't had a lot of "play" time testing range yet. 2 of us on the plains of Wyoming had NO problem transmitting up to 3 miles without walking outside the house with metal siding. Haven't had the chance for all 3 of us to play in the hills yet. I do have to say the option of sending your location, a waypoint, or even an entire route to your friends is awesome! They are very tough, very water resistant and the 110's and 120's can be had in decent shape used pretty cheap for what you get. They also can send text messages like a cell phone. That works pretty well in spotty reception areas since just like a cell phone you only need reception for a moment for the message to go through. The 130's even have weather channels.

Philip,
Although my ID here is KC2IXE, that's my old call, been KG2V for a while - was EC of Queens NYC - now an AEC due to health issues.

Your are 100% right about ham radio, and ditto about the fact that almost no one gets the license for GMRS (like back in the days when you were supposed to get a CB license - remember thoses days?

RE Burning man and PL tones - did you try with Digital codes?

Other thing - if you get the right "commercial" radio (say a GE MPA system/MRK II) you can setup the "up/down" keys to change channel, and put the PL tone on what is usually the channel knob, and never have to worry again - you get all your GMRS freqs, and your choice of PL tone

I use my handheld cb all the time when traveling. Wife and kids in the truck and I go in the rest area and radio back asking if they want anything from the vending machine. I have to remember to change off of channel 19 or I get yelled at by a truck driver though
I was looking at those garmin rhinos, I might pick up a couple frs/gmrs for bike riding and then upgrade to a rhino when my current gps gets too old.

The "privacy tones" or "privacy codes" (as Moto calls them now) is a silent signal that is broadcast everytime the FRS/GMRS is transmitting.

Only if the receiving radio is set to use the same channel and privacy code - OR set to privacy code '0' (not using any privacy code), will you hear the transmission. Radios set to privacy code '0' will turn on for all transmissions on the selected channel.

If the receiving radio is on a different channel, you will not hear the transmission.

If the receiving radio is on the same channel, but using a different privacy code, you will not hear the transmission.

The thing to keep in mind is that regardless of the privacy code use, all radios using channel X (whichever you're using) use that same channel to broadcast. So, if two nearby groups are using the same channel, they are all transmitting using the same frequency. It is to get cross-talk on the frequency - two people transmitting on the same channel at the same time. In that case one of the groups should agree to move to an unused channel to avoid the cross-talk.

I don't think Motorola makes any pure FRS radios anymore. I think they are all FRS/GMRS hybrids. I've read lots of debate about whether people in the U.S. are allowed to transmit on the GMRS frequencies using those radios (since they usually transmit at higher Wattage). I've never heard a final answer on that. I got my GMRS license and simply don't worry about it.

Because antenna height has so much to do with the transmission range, I know of some people who use external antennas and hoist them up into nearby trees. Of course that's tough to do if you're wandering around the forest.

Someday I figure they'll come out with a relatively low-cost SPOT-like product that uses satellites to broadcast/receive text messages. Put that into a GPS and you have a nifty product. Now that would be cool.

> RE Burning man and PL tones - did you try with Digital codes?

The GMRS radios I have don't have digital codes, just the ham radios. Fortunately, there are few enough hams on the playa that we don't need to worry about crowding on those bands. :-)

I can see that - I happen to use commercial rigs that are type accepted in both bands, so I can use GMRS, and had one to SWMBO or my Daughter

For anyone interested, I noticed the recent "sale flyer" from Dicks' Sporting Goods has a special price on a 2-pack of the Midland radios; about $60.00 after the mail-in rebate ... Dick's Weekly Ads

The ad does not specify the model of the radios, but it does say "30-mile range"; so, hopefully, that is one of the better models such as the GXT800 or GXT900.
Also, unless I am missing something, this appears to be an in-store deal only ... it does not appear to be available online at their web site.
I don't like the hassle of mail-in rebates; but, overall, this might be a pretty good deal.

One "interesting" think you can do with GMRS'only' radios (FRS radios are NOT allowed to have removeable antennas), and Hams do all the time

There is a thing called a "pocket J-Pole" antenna - you do have to design them for the frequencies in question, and I have NOT looked for a plan for GMRS (hey, I can go on 2m or 70CM)

The are basically made with a piece of 300 Ohm 'twin lead' television wire - so they roll up quite nicely, and they have a LOT more gain than the "rubber duckie" antennas you typically find on an HT

Go here http://w4gbu.home.mindspring.com/jpole.htm

and use 462.75 as the frequency - of course that doesn't work for 300 ohm foldups

http://blog.mecworks.com/articles/2005/02/27/gmrs-j-pole/

Can you even get GMRS only anymore? Though if the fcc doesn't care about enforcing the GMRS license requirement than they probably wouldn;t care if someone solders an antenna connector on their combined frs/gmrs unit.

> NO problem transmitting up to 3 miles without walking outside the house

Big houses in Wyoming?