I just found this site with info about a propane explosion that killed six kids, aged 2 to 19. Pretty sad. Safe storage of fuels really is that important.

http://brucegoldfarb.com/?p=28

Sheez, that pic makes my hair stand on end.

My dad always said "fire is a two-faced friend."

Same goes for volatile fuels, I think.

A few months ago, security found a propane tank bomb at the local coal-fired steam plant in Centralia, WA. It was a 5-gallon propane tank with some kind of black powder/electronic detonator. Less than ten days later, they got the guy who made it and put it there.

Here's the guy's story: He made the bomb as entertainment for the Fourth of July. He tried to ignite it, but the black powder was apparently the only part that ignited. He said he kept it around at home for a couple of months, then decided to take it twenty miles away and dump it near the steam plant/coal mine. It was just a holiday prank, honest!

Can you imagine what the neighborhood would have looked like had it worked as he intended, with all the kids around? But I don't think anyone really believed his story. Of course, it's possible that he's the craziest, most ignorant person on the face of the earth...

Sue

blasts from leaking propane are the curse of the north country cabin..

Much to be said for propane detectors. Available at RV supplies and not that expensive. Only drawback, they must be replaced every 5 years according to mfg.

That looks like a leak in the house that was ignited. IE: Stove on for a long time w/no fire... match, cig, etc ignited and KABOOM.

A propane cylinder that has a leak or gets too hot should shoot flames many feet high in the sky out of the pressure valve.

More accurately: Propane + wooden building. If you look carefully at the picture there is no sign of fire. The propane has detonated. Probably in one room and the house has disintegrated. I rather suspect that most of them died either from shrapnel or blast related injuries. Or some combination of the two.

One wonders what would have happened if that had been a brick or concrete building. Would most of them have survived?

Research the word 'BLEVE'

Don't need to - seen too many films of them :shudder:

Odds are they died from the pressure/shock wave. Brick or concrete would have accentuated this.

Yes, Sue, there are some of us who are that crazy, at least used to be, before the "S" got ripped off my chest a couple times. Now I guess I know better. We've built several such IEDs in my youth, but were always at least smart enough to take them out to the dunes far, far away from anyone else and set them off. If the detonating charge didn't do the job, then a well placed AP round would usually do the trick.

We were lucky, and didn't have to learn the hard way, but there were more than a few times I shoulda been blown to smithereens. I can't believe I still have all my fingers, both my eyes, and can still hear reasonably well. God watches over fools sometimes I guess. Blast may be able to attest to this fact better than I.

Of course, none of my creations came anywhere near the sort of explosive demonstrations I got to see in Baghdad. Truly awe inspiring.

I think the biggest explosion we ever came up with was a cratering charge used to make tank traps. That was probably too much for us to be messing with, but that was in the day when you could buy a 50 lb bag of High Nitro fertilizer and a couple gallons of diesel. The hard part was coming up with an adequate detonator. Boy, did that make a hole, though. I think that was bigger than the Tovex/Dynamite blast we did out in the Nevada desert.

So far, all of the news articles I've read on this blast have said that the authorities still have no idea what caused it. Obviously, there was a fuel source. It could have been a properly installed bulk tank that started leaking, it might have been some spare 20 pound tanks stored in a basement corner. No one knows for sure just yet. The reason I started the thread was to remind us all that we need to make sure we store our spare fuel safely.
In reading a story like this one, most will think of the kids that died, a family torn apart, someone's home destroyed, but seeing the photo of it really lets you know how devastating that blast was. That blast cleared that house down to the top of the foundation walls! Can a single 20 pound propane tank do that?
I'm sitting here looking at the photo thinking there's enough space out at the rear of the property for storing fuel, either in a shed or some type of reinforced covered pit that would help contain the blast or, at least, redirect it's energy straight up.

As other have said, its not so much the "storage" of propane, but the "leakage" of propane that causes the problems.

The storage tanks have been around a long time and are well thought-out. Even the house distribution systems are well thought-out - in general. Most propane (and gas) appliances have safety devices that "should" auto-ignite the gas OR that shut off the fuel if a pilot goes out. Note the "should".

Routine appliance inspection & cleaning is a good thing.

Still, with my house running on propane, that does make me think about getting an LP gas detector or two.

BTW, I recall them shooting bullets into propane tanks without real incident on Mythbusters.

I can tell you that every one of the fuel containers we shot blew up real good. Maybe it was the steel on steel of the AP rounds going through the container that made sparks or whatever, but it was our goto detonation scheme if the explosive charge (usually a black powder pipe bomb) failed to rupture the container.

BTW, they don't make mushroom clouds when they go off. They usually make big blue or yellow balls o' fire. It's not like an open puddle of gas on the ground; a little pressure and the combustion efficiency goes right up.

That is why our home on wheels has a propane detector, a CO detector, and two fire alarms. It is only a year old, but in a few years we will replace all of the flexible lines. If we smell propane, we find out where it is coming from NOW!!!

A BLEVE would "probably" be even worse than this. Most BLEVE's are caused when an entire tank of propane (or other flamable gas), without a functuning "pop" valve, gets heated, usually by fire, to the point that the gas explodes. This was "probably" a case of a leak inside of the structure that met an ignition source. So it might not have been the entire contents of the tank, and the structure "gave" easier than the tank would. Less confinement, less "boom." But still one hell of a boom...

Always better with the words than I... well said

-Todd

OBG,

According to the LP plumbers I have spoken to about this, you should not need to replace any lines unless they are flexing repeatedly or rubbing with movement of the vehicle.

I also questioned said plumbers regarding the select few homes I have built for customers that use propane due to no natural gas in the area (rural). They advised that no pipe/valve replacement is needed unless there is some outside caused damage.

I will say that the homeowners I have built houses for with LP are getting two things in their Christmas cards this year. 1) a printed copy of the above picture. 2) a gift certificate for a propane detector.

Replacement of the LP detector is a mixed bag. Some say every 5 calendar years, some every 5 years of actual powered on use. Go figure, two "experts" that cannot agree on how long 5 years is.

I mentioned that much of 5 calendar years would be lost on a shelf awaiting purchase unless in a truly sealed container. Stopped in at Camping World and saw that they aren't sealed. That removed one "expert witness" from the courtroom.

As to the BLEVE's, I was told by my brother in law (retired fire fighter) that ther is one "fool proof" method to know if you are too close to a burning LP tank.
Hold you pinky finger at arms length. Using the pinky fingernail as a "front sight" ensure you can cover any sight of said fire scene. If you can see the scene around the edges of the fingernail, you are WAY too close.

"...are flexing repeatedly or rubbing with movement of the vehicle..."

Our theory is that with an RV, EVERYTHING is flexing and rubbing all the time. Every time you move a RV it has been described (don't remember where I read this) the same as going thru a 3.2 earthquake. Unless you are driving on CA highways, then it is more like a 6.5. The only flex lines we have are from the regularors to the tanks, don't cost all that much to replace them from time to time. Everything else is ironpipe. We will or course keep an eye on them...

Have you tried the gauges that mount between the tanks and the flex line? Some have a "fail safe" mode. I guess the idea is that if too much propane flows at too fast a rate, it shuts off in the gauge. Beats me, but sounds like a good idea, for Class A situation where LP is needed for fridge while traveling. Good luck with shoulder surgery, been there done that on one. delaying the other because that crap HURT.

"...Good luck with shoulder surgery, been there done that on one. delaying the other because that crap HURT...."


Tell me 'bout it. I have had the right done twice before, the left once. Major pain for sure. But at least there is a light at the end of that tunnel. As it is now, I hurt all the time, worse at night, surgery is the only way to make it go away...

Get the right proportion of suspended dust (corn, flour, wood, etc) and you can get the same effect once it ignites. Just need to hit that magic explosive limit.

I found that my article had been linked and was being discussed here, and wanted to clarify some points. I hope I'm not too late for the discussion.



Actually, you can see there was a fire in the basement. But you're probably correct that the victims were killed by the blast itself. That is precisely the point. Propane is much more explosive than natural gas.

That wooden construction is very common for residences, tens of millions of which are fueled by propane.



I can tell you which room -- the basement. Propane is heavier than air. It flows like water into low-lying areas and tends to collect.

This is why I put the information up. Anybody who uses propane should look at the entire material that was linked at http://brucegoldfarb.com/?p=28.



It may have been more survivable. But there are lots of examples of concrete, steel-framed and brick/block construction blown up by propane. Look at the link. There are photos and video and lots of examples.

Propane is very dangerous.

Yes. Look at http://brucegoldfarb.com/?p=28 to read of a restaurant that was just about as obliterated from a single 20-pound cylinder.

Propane tends to accumulate in the basement. It's heavier than air, and it can lose its smell. Your house could be filled with an explosive mixture, and you could be totally unaware.

Propane detectors are absolutely essential. Unlike a smoke detector, which is installed on the ceiling, a propane goes on the floor or the lowest point.