>>If someone pulled a gun on me in England and demanded my wallet, i'd give it to him, and no one would die.<<

I'm not sure how it works over there, but here that scenario is so rare (in reality, not theater) as to be almost fantasy. Assailants here don't like to leave a person any choice of response, they much prefer to just beat the victim senseless immediately (often by using surprise, or ganging up on the victim- the more the merrier), and then they can do anything they please to the victim at their leasure.

Shopkeepers are often (and mugging victims sometimes) shot AFTER turning over cash, especially if the robber thinks the shopkeeper might be a witness later (or the perpetrator just has some class-struggle anger to vent). Fences of stolen goods pay more for stolen credit cards if the previous owner was killed; if the owner was just robbed, cancelling the cards is the first thing that occurs to people. If the owner was killed, it's one of the last, so the cards tend to work for much longer afterwards, and hence are more valuable.

You must make your own decisions, of course, but I strongly encourage you to base them on reality, and not on a child's-play scenario (whether it's Jesse James or Dick Turpin). It's highly unlikely that anyone is going to point a gun at you and politely say "your money or your life". It's far, far more likely that they will just take control of the situation as quickly and efficiently as possible, and after that, it's too late- you have no further say in anything. If all they take is your money, you will be very fortunate.

I've certainly learnt a lesson, never argue with a gun enthusiast .
I do, like you, enjoy guns and do shoot. However I was just trying to make you see from another view. There are to ways to try and stop guncrime. Arming civilians, and trying to remove guns from the streets. I completely understand your viewpoint and if I lived in the US, i'd probably carry a gun. <img src="images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

same for me, exsept i don't shoot ( im only 16..... )

"I've certainly learnt a lesson, never argue with a gun enthusiast "
????????????????????????????????????????????????????

I know my english is not that good and I certainly cannot detect all the subtilities and nuances in those posts, but ....

... I don't understand what you mean by "learnt lesson" :
- IMHO all the posts in this thread are very polite ; to me, it looks like the most courteous exchange of opinions I have ever seen about that delicate subject ;
- everybody said you are entitled to your opinion ; they simply tried to express theirs, as you seemed interested ;
- if by "never argue ..." you mean you are disappointed because they do not share your own opinion, well ... that's life .... <img src="images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Back to the arguments exchanged up to now :
- reading your starting post, it seems England is a wonderful land to live in : no ordinary decent citizen is subject to violent crime !! All your muggers are quite decent too, they just want some money, and would never even think about knocking you about a bit or raping your wife/girlfriend, not after you giving so kindly your money away ... that's what I call "fair-play" ! <img src="images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />
(in another criminal area : have IRA people decided to never again bomb or gun down folks in the U.K. ??)
- there are laws in EVERY contries forbidding criminals to have guns ; those laws doesn't PREVENT them to have guns (hey!! they are outlaws !!!), those laws just allow to punish them somemore once they are caught ...
- Only non criminal people (aka ordinary decent law abiding citizens <img src="images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> ) obey laws.
- IMHO (yes, I know, I have already used that acronym ! I don't know a lot of them <img src="images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />...), it makes sense that most criminals prefer un-armed potential victims ;
- I (calmly sitting in front of my computer) FULLY aggree with you : a few £ (or Euros or $ ...) are NOT worth a life, neither yours nor the one of your mugger. No TV set, no car ... is worth a life.
YOU (and I and other people on this forum too) know that.
But maybe your assaillant doesn't think so .... maybe be he is not thinking at all, except at the dose of crack your money will buy him .... <img src="images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

Well, as many people say here, that was just my two cents (of Euro) worth opinion ...
( this post is not intended to be aggressive ; if you feel it is, please excuse me and put it on the fact I don't master english well enough)


Regards.

Alain

P.S. : I only recently saw that movie "ordinary decent criminals" ; delightful !! I enjoyed it very much, therefore the citations ....
but I fear all your criminals are not as fair as the character played by Kevin Spacey (fair enough to keep the killings among themselves).

I'm only 15

ohw... they let 15 year old folks shoot ? what caliber do you shoot ? here in holland you are only allowed to fire .17 and .20 if you aren't 18 yet. You also need to be 18 to buy a .17 or .20 and you have to do that on a shooting range. I personally don't like these BB-gun calibers, because they don't have noticble recoil. You have to feel something ! but im thinking of joining a shooting club before i get 17 so i can buy a "big" caliber gun wenn i turn 18. ( you have to be atleast a member of a shooting club for over a year to be ablebuy a gun )

As far as I know, here in the UK there are no age restrictions on shooting. It may interest you to know that I shoot the L98 or SA80 (5.56), the standard rifle of the British army. I shoot it with the air cadets. I also shoot 22. and 12 bore shotgun. I also once fired 7.62. You have to be 14 to shoot 5.56 and 13 to shoot 22. I also don't like the 22. because there is little to no kick.

drool....

Sorry if i'm being stupid, but what rifle do the Dutch army use?

canadian made C7 diemaco and the C8 diemaco carbine