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#153544 - 10/28/08 09:39 PM Re: How to obtain drinking water in cold environme [Re: steelie]
nursemike Offline
Old Hand

Registered: 11/09/06
Posts: 870
Loc: wellington, fl
Originally Posted By: steelie
ugh, i've had giardiasis in high school before. it was during a backpacking trip, i got the drinking water mixed up with the river water and took a healthy gulp... but to be honest, the treatment was worse than the giardia. while i had the "runs" from the giardia, the antibiotics for treatment (furizolidone?) made my stomach hurt really, really badly. i also lost control of my bowels a few times... not a pleasant sickness to get.


Thanks for sharing, steelie-

when you compare giardia to other waterborne parasites-
guinea worms , for instance-the giardia seem pretty tolerable.
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#153549 - 10/28/08 09:56 PM Re: How to obtain drinking water in cold environme [Re: nursemike]
Hikin_Jim Offline
Sheriff
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 10/12/07
Posts: 1804
Loc: Southern California
Originally Posted By: nursemike
when you compare giardia to other waterborne parasites-
guinea worms , for instance-the giardia seem pretty tolerable.
Quote:
...mature inside a human's abdomen until the worm emerges through a painful blister in the person's skin.
!!! Shades of Alien! Yikes! eek
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#153611 - 10/29/08 12:23 PM Re: How to obtain drinking water in cold environme [Re: Hikin_Jim]
benjammin Offline
Rapscallion
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 02/06/04
Posts: 4020
Loc: Anchorage AK
I had giardia once, and there was nothing occasional about the symptoms. I took what the doctor called "Flagyll" on the script and that got rid of the giardia. Then I drank about a gallon of buttermilk and ate about half a gallon of yogurt to replace everything else the meds got rid of too.

The symptoms from Giardia infection for me ranged from mild discomfort to full on distress, and though variable, were constantly present. The meds left me with a raw feeling inside, ravenously hungry.
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#153714 - 10/30/08 04:01 AM Re: How to obtain drinking water in cold environme [Re: benjammin]
Jakam
Unregistered


My sister got giardia from the ice in her margarita in Nogales, Mexico, so don't only "not drink the water" there, I guess. It apparently lived in the ice (her doctor stated).........
I live in Cali, so I'm fairly sure the snow, except it very high elevation, is not safe, based on the airborne particulates present everywhere.........
Cryptosporidium, and/or brain eating amoeba critters (I forget the scientific name, causes encephalitis or similar), I think I'll always treat my water, either by UV or long boil or chlorine or something.........

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#153720 - 10/30/08 04:39 AM Re: How to obtain drinking water in cold environme [Re: ]
Hikin_Jim Offline
Sheriff
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 10/12/07
Posts: 1804
Loc: Southern California
Originally Posted By: Jakam
My sister got giardia from the ice in her margarita in Nogales, Mexico, so don't only "not drink the water" there, I guess. It apparently lived in the ice (her doctor stated)...
Interesting. I've always been advised not to get ice in my drinks in Mexico, but I didn't think that it would be giardia that would be the issue. I've read that giardia is killed by freezing temps. Can giardia really be contracted from ice?

Originally Posted By: Jakam
I live in Cali, so I'm fairly sure the snow, except it very high elevation, is not safe, based on the airborne particulates present everywhere.........
I'd be curious to see some research on particulates on California. I suspect such research would reveal it's not much of an issue in California. California isn't prone to acid rain. I wouldn't collect snow near a road or railroad track, but otherwise I think you'd be pretty safe even at lower elevations
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#153803 - 10/31/08 02:26 AM Re: How to obtain drinking water in cold environme [Re: Hikin_Jim]
sodak Offline
Addict

Registered: 03/20/05
Posts: 410
Originally Posted By: Hikin_Jim
Originally Posted By: nursemike
Some folks can probably live for a long time with a giardia colony on board without a lot of symptoms.
From what I've read, many people who are exposed to giardia won't show any symptoms and many of those who do show symptoms experience mild discomfort and recover without medical intervention. Apparently, it's actually a fairly small percentage of the populace that will have severe symptoms. Not that I want to play "giardia roulette" and find out which category I fall into. smile


Both my wife and I have had it, and we both had severe symptoms. It's not pleasant, like having constant stomach flu. Like Benjammin, we took Flagil (Metronidozal, I think), and it works like magic in a day or two. But you have to take the whole 10 day course.

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#153814 - 10/31/08 03:31 AM Re: How to obtain drinking water in cold environme [Re: Hikin_Jim]
Hikin_Jim Offline
Sheriff
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 10/12/07
Posts: 1804
Loc: Southern California
Originally Posted By: Hikin_Jim
Originally Posted By: Jakam
My sister got giardia from the ice in her margarita in Nogales, Mexico, so don't only "not drink the water" there, I guess. It apparently lived in the ice (her doctor stated)...
Interesting. I've always been advised not to get ice in my drinks in Mexico, but I didn't think that it would be giardia that would be the issue. I've read that giardia is killed by freezing temps. Can giardia really be contracted from ice?
I did some searching. The answer? "Yes." Giardia can and does survive freezing. Ice (or ice cream for that matter) made with contaminated water is not safe.

However, giardia does not survive well in freeze-thaw cycles for more than two weeks.
Quote:
..the cyst stage of Giardia ... which can survive several freeze thaw cycles lasting up to 14 days.
See also this article. Therefore, what I've read is true, that in areas that experience freezing winters, giardia contamination must be re-introduced every spring. It's no wonder then that places like the Sierra Nevada in California have very little giardia. See this article. Perhaps the most important protocol in the Sierra is not water treatment but hand sanitization.

Again, I'm not trying to dissuade people from treating their water; water treatment is always a good precaution. However, in a survival situation, particularly one in a wilderness area with cold winters, drink. Oh, and wash those hands. smile


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#153817 - 10/31/08 03:44 AM Re: How to obtain drinking water in cold environme [Re: Hikin_Jim]
Jakam
Unregistered


Hikin Jim, you're a wealth of knowledge!

And I'm sure, in Nogie, that ice was fairly fresh....

And yes she went undiagnosed, and then misdiagnosed, for nearly 2 years, just suffering through bouts as the critter went through it's cycle. If I recall, it finally took a third stool sample before a doctor spotted it (humiliating for her).

And yep, dirty hands probably account for the vast majority of contamination.

For the particulate matter, you know as well (since you live in SoCal) as I that you can practically taste the air out here, it's gotta be something more than just CO2 making the sky thick. An ounce of prevention, but you could bet if I was in dire straits I'd take the chance.


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#153825 - 10/31/08 10:45 AM Re: How to obtain drinking water in cold environme [Re: ]
Leigh_Ratcliffe Offline
Veteran

Registered: 03/31/06
Posts: 1355
Loc: United Kingdom.
Re my previous posts:

If heat is availible from a fire, which you are using to warm yourself, you might as well take advantage of the situation to sterilise your water.
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#153849 - 10/31/08 04:07 PM Re: How to obtain drinking water in cold environme [Re: Leigh_Ratcliffe]
Hikin_Jim Offline
Sheriff
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 10/12/07
Posts: 1804
Loc: Southern California
Originally Posted By: Leigh_Ratcliffe
Re my previous posts:

If heat is availible from a fire, which you are using to warm yourself, you might as well take advantage of the situation to sterilise your water.
Absolutely. Particularly in cold wx, boiling beats the pants off of chemical treatments. Chemical treatments take a long time in very cold water. Instead of the 30 minutes listed on the iodine bottle, several hours are required. With chemical treatments, you're almost better letting them work overnight. Chemicals? Nah. Burn, baby, burn. smile

There's a bit more of a problem in areas where fuel is scarce or fires are prohibited. frown I guess a filter is your best option in cold wx under those circumstances, but one has to be careful to not leave water in the filter. Water left in the filter may freeze, rupturing the filter and rendering it useless. Alternatively, one could bring in a white gas (or canister depending on the type and conditions) stove and boil one's water, but that can add a lot of weight and bulk to one's kit. If temps are well below 0C/32F, then one will probably want to bring a stove anyway. With those temp, the water available tends to be the solid kind.
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