OK, so you're out in the middle of nowhere and the weather is freezing cold. Snow is piling up all around you. You know that you'll need to get a fire going, so you begin the urgent task of locating some firewood. It takes about a 1/2 hour to come up with some firewood, then you take a wad of firestarter out of your backpack and the next thing you know you've got a nice little fire going! After that, you build a makeshift water generator by setting up a tripod. The tripod is positioned close enough to the fire so that it can feel the heat, and yet far enough away so that it doesn't burn the wood. The next thing you do is, you take an old cotton tee-shirt and you stuff it with snow. The tee-shirt is dangling from the center of the tripod, which is close enough to the fire so that it melts the snow into water. Now you've got water dripping down into a plastic cup which is positioned under the tripod. You've got water, but you still aren't sure if you'll need to boil it. The snow is fresh, but you can still remember what it says in the US Army survival manual: it says that you must always purify your drinking water, even if the water was procured by melting snow and ice.

Imagine that the snow is pure and white and clean-looking and you are in dire need of drinking water. Will you be risking a serious water-borne illness if you just melt the snow and drink it ? LW.

Snow is frozen water vapor-distilled water, in essence. It could pick up some airborne microbes, unlikely because of the effectiveness of solar UV in killing such off. Might have some nasty acidic factory waste particulates on board, the source of acid rain-but not enough to make it physiologically harmful, or even sour-tasting. The rest of the post-precipitation contaminants generally add some color to the snow, and this is postulated as absent. Drink it, I would.

What's a PSK ?

The local well water or city water is probably not as clean as the fresh snow in the country.

I make a fire or since I have my backpack I fire up the Svea, put some snow in the large pot from my mess kit and melt the snow, Drink as needed. Or use my homemade alcohol stove, but being it’s cold out and alcohol stoves don’t work as well in cold, the Svea is the first choice.

The challenge in the winter to find water is not when it’s snowing or snow is laying about (water everyplace that just needs a little heat) but to find it when there is no snow about.

I would generally forget the US Army Manual about boiling the melt water gathered from fresh snow fall. The melt water from clean snow will be perfectly OK to drink in normal circumstances. The US Army Manual instructions are attempting to deal with a couple of issues. Firstly, boiling would help with dealing with biological warfare toxins that may have been spread over that new clean virgin snow which fell during night and secondly boiling the water means a hot drink rather than a cold drink, which may cause problems with a contribution to hypothermia or cold weather injury.

The first point is not really an issue unless your fighting WWIII, but the second could be as it would be preferable to have a hot drink rather than a cold drink. It would be preferable to have a cold drink rather than eating snow and it would be preferable to eat snow rather than becoming dehydrated. Being dehydrated is the worst of all possible circumstances for cold weather injuries.

So it would be better exchanging the plastic cup for a nice lightweight titanium metal one and carry some sachets of Belgian double hot chocolate in your survival kit.

Titanium Mug with Belgain Double Hot Chocolate - best outcome.

Titanium Mug with Hot water and some pine needles - better outcome.

Plastic Mug with cold water - keeps you hydrated.

No Mug with dripping cold water - certainly not idea as you may have to carve/improvise a wooden cup - keeps you hydrated.

No Mug and no Knife and no fire - You may have to start eating snow, high possibility of cold weather injury especially if there is nothing to eat.

No water, no knife and no fire and no food because you have remembered from some folks survival training that advocate 'not to eat the snow at all costs' - leads to dehydration and the rapid onset of a cold weather injury.

Personally, I would worry more about what kind of junk might be in/on that old tee shirt. Deoderant, grease from working on the car, paint thinner, who knows what...

If you're worried about it, just carry along a small bottle of iodine or chlorine bleach, pre-diluted appropriately so that one drop would be sufficient to purify 4oz or water without being so strong as to cause YOU harm. You just want to nuke the bugs! Might not taste so good, but I survived many backpacking trips in the 70's drinking iodine water. Just don't boil starchy noodles in it unless you're willing to eat purple.

I'm wondering what the advantage would be in using a titanium mug as opposed to using a mug that's made out of stainless steel. The stainless steel mug is cheap enough, it's available for only a few bucks at your local Academy store. As for the pine needles, although they are definitely a good source of vitamin C, I know of at least one author (T. Elpel) who warns that overconsumption of pine needles can lead to possible kidney complications, and this is due to the resinous nature of the pine tree. LW.

They are lighter, and they cost much more. So the two possible reasons I can think of are: (1) To save weight, or (2) Personal satisfaction in owning something that is somewhat elitist. I've never seen much point in cutting the handles off my toothbrushes to save weight either, but some do. I guess I just don't go on long enough hikes to where the minuscule weight savings really matter.

I like stainless because it’s durable, my Coleman stainless steel mess kit is going on 25-years old and still looks very good.


Stainless steel is also easy to clean up with oven spray without the oven cleaner eating the metal. It eats aluminum & copper (don’t know what it does to titanium?)


Stainless steel does not heat quite as evenly as aluminum, but I have not found this to be a real problem. Just stir the food while cooking.



I have never been one to go for trendy things just because it’s the way the masses go.

I can speak to this from direct experience: unless you're downwind of Chernobyl or equivalent, snowmelt is safe to drink. I've been doing it for 20 years, and I'm still kicking.

Note that ice is entirely different: it is only as pure as the stream or lake it came from. That usually means "boil it."

I've been drinking snowmelt since, well, forever. Two water bottles, packed with the cleanest snow I can find, and tucked inside pockets while I snowshoe up a hill, yield drinking water.

If you can heat water, and make tea or hot chocolate, that's a bonus. I always carry a steel cup of some sort. Actually, boiling water is a huge bonus ... that's the difference between 'surviving' and 'living outdoors in style and comfort.' Old-time trappers used to bile-the kittle for a mug-up as standard operating procedure, every few hours.

Another consideration: in cold conditions, you don't feel thirsty. But you need to be well hydrated to "burn" food, to keep the metabolic fires burning. I've sometimes forced myself to drink, and then felt better. Dehydration kills in cold as well as heat.

Like OBG, I'm more scared of the cooties in a T-shirt than the snow.

Not that snowmelt is sterile; it isn't. Lots of bacteria hitchhike on the dust particles that coalesce raindrops etc. etc. etc. Nowhere on Earth is really sterile, even the upper atmosphere. But the cooties that cause us problems are generally in short supply in rain/snow.

Anyway, I'm rambling. Bottom line: Drink The Snowmelt!

As others have said, fresh snow gathered away from the road is generally safe to melt and drink without resorting to boiling. Just don't eat the yellow snow.

I would consider building and carrying Monty Alford's YuCan type of survival stove (YuCan comes from Yukon, can and "you can" as in "you can survive"). It's made of two nested cans and heated by three parafin tea light candles. No need to gather wood and all that. It gives off less CO than esbit or alcohol stoves so it's safer to use in a snowcave. You use swizzle sticks to stir the snow gradually and you use the ¼" diameter clear plastic tubing or surgical tubing that you thought was only useful in desert survival to drink directly from the stove while it's still warm and so that you don't have to remove the nested can.

If YuCan, try to get the book Winter Wise by Monty Alford.

Your cold weather survival gear should include:

A mosquito head net. Often refered to as a barrier net.

A few feet of cord.

A Metal mug or container.

A ferrocenium rod (Best cold weather firelighter).

A 1 litre or bigger thermos flask (minimum, 2 or more is better).

Light your fire. Pack snow into the head net. Hang the head net near to but not over the fire. Position the mug under it to catch the melt. When the mug is full, place closer to the fire to warm it. Boil it if you wish. Pour into flask. Repeat as required.

This will take longer than most people expect. Snow is 90% air and is a good insulator. Which means that it does not melt easily.

You should also carry a plastic mug or cup to drink from. One of the insulated ones for choice. Metal freezes to you below certain temperatures. Which will cause a cold injury.

Well, sir, I wish you luck.

But you may do well to try it out first, out here in the field.

Cheers,
Doug,
Jack Frost a-nippin' at my heels.

As it happens, that is the technique I use.

I am not boiling the water to sterilise it but to delay the cooling. I would boil water from ice to sterilise it (If possible) because it's remarkable how many pathogens can survive freezing. At least short term. And chemical sterilisation is problematic at those temperatures.

I should have mentioned that it pays to stitch a small (4-6") length of cord to the bottom of the net. It makes directing the water into the cup easier.

The moment it hits freezing you are into Arctic/Mountain Survival techniques. It's not an environment that you can travel "light" in.

If it's a high mountain or ice field then your down to the between layers method.

If worse comes to worse, I would drink the water and take my chances.
Hypothermia as a result of dehydration is a far more immediate threat than any water born pathogene.

I used to make "vanilla" snow cones as a kid from fresh snow, never had any problems. I'm thinking drinking water from fresh snow melt wouldn't be a problem either. In the scenario you describe I wouldn't bother to take the time to boil it. Just my 2¢

-Bill Liptak

I was told years ago by a soldier who had served in cold climates, that eating snow is actually advisable when and only when exerting oneself.
If dressed for cold conditions, one can easily overheat and sweat heavily with risk of overcooling afterwards.
Moderate eating of snow in such conditions helps cool the body when it would otherwise over heat, and provides needed fluid without useing probably scarce fuel.

I would not worry about boiling water from snow provided that it looks clean.

Titanium doesn't rust and is lighter than Stainless Steel. I find that it is also a lot easier to keep clean than stainless steel and there is very little after taste using a Titanium Mug.

I prefer the Snowpeak titanium cups, they are excellent and are available in 300, 450 and 600ml sizes. Double walled insulated cups are available also.

http://www.backcountrygear.com/catalog/accessdetail.cfm/SN3305

Personally I don't think paying $30 for a piece of kit that is going to last more than a lifetime as being to much. I actually consider a metal cup to be just as important as a knife in terms of essential survival gear.

I have heard that you should avoid red snow which is caused by algae and may cause diarrhea.

The Sierra Cup I have, and still use, from the early 70's is a dull flat gray metal (a little lighter in color than a photographic "18% gray card"). I assume it's aluminum or a non-stainless steel. Whatever it is, it probably only cost me a dollar back then and it's still going strong. No rust, no difficulty in cleaning. I also have a stainless steel cup that fits on the bottom of a Nalgene bottle. It holds more volume than the much flatter profiled Sierra Cup, but the Sierra is still my favorite - many memorable trips with that cup dangling from my backpack.

Whether in snow country or in the hot desert, in a survival situation, drink the water. Dehydration is pretty immediate, giardia and the like typically take a few days. Maybe in Africa, I'd rethink that advice, but here in N. America, more than likely, the water is safe, particularly melted snow.

In fact, unless there's just a lot of fuel around, you might be lessening your chances of survival by boiling the water. If you burn through all your fuel to boil the water (which takes a lot more heat than simple melting), you may not have fuel later when you need it.

There was research in the 80's that indicated that giardia was common in N American waters, but that conclusion has been refuted by subsequent research. Now, I'm not telling people to stop treating their water, but rather I'm saying, in a survival situation, drink even if you can't treat the water. I sometimes see drinking untreated water presented as a sort of life-or-death choice. "Ohmigosh, if I drink I might get super-duper-anthrax-bubonic-sclerosis and die, but if I don't drink, I'll be dehydrated and get hyper(hypo)thermia and die." I think a better assessment is: "what a fool I'd be to not drink this water that has a chance of causing some intestinal problem later and let myself get dehydrated and risk hyper(hypo) thermia now."

Based on what I've read, water taken directly from a spring is typically safe. Water taken from creeks in remote areas with no human or livestock activity upstream is typically safe. Again, I'm not calling for an end to water treatment, but untreated water isn't this death serum waiting to take to their death the weak who gave in to their thirst. I think such a scenario does exist at sea, but here on land it's not such a damned if you do, damned if you don't gamble.

Lastly, call me crazy if you will, but I drink untreated surface water in the wild on a regular basis in areas I know and am familiar with. I've been hiking since the 60's (still carry my old sierra cup). Suddenly, one day (80's) the word got passed around that all water everywhere needed to be treated. The waters of N America didn't all go bad overnight. It just doesn't work that way. I think the problem has gotten blown out of proportion, and I'm sure the water filter companies and the like haven't exactly tried to calm things down.

The waters of the Adirondacks were safe were apparently safe for a long time, up until the 70's, when the efforts of the conservation folk got beaver populations re-established. Giardiasis, aka beaver fever, followed promptly. A friend got it because the family dug well was too close to the the creek. She was in the first trimester of pregnancy, and chose not to risk damaging the fetus with the treatment of choice; she chose instead the local herbalist's cure which involved a 24 hour fast, followed by ingestion of an entire bulb of garlic, pureed, mixed in tomato juice, followed by another 24 hour fast. She was pretty sure that she could hear the giardia screaming when the garlic hit them, and allowed that they surely were in a hurry to leave. No damage to the fetus, tho she was born Italian. Anyway, giardia is seldom fatal, mostly involves occasional abdominal cramps and diarrhea. Having it is sort of like having a pet that lives in your gi tract.

i always had the impression that "beaver fever" was the result of filthy people using the waterways as a toilet and the beaver as well as other animals were just bystanders in the cycle of passing the cysts..

Having never been hit with Guardia, but having read some accounts of people that have had it, it may not attack you when you drink the water, but it sounds like no fun to go through a week or more after you drank the water.

I will continue to boil or filter my water. The fact that I enjoy primitive camping in remote areas, and that I have always made my water safe to drink supports (in my mind) the idea that the small amount of time and effort it takes to boil the water is well worth it.

Boiling is easy and with any fire be it a wood stove, tin can hobo stove or a small campfire, fuel is not a big deal.

Small consolation for those of us living in high fire danger areas. And in the summer? Hot water? Yuck. Boiling is the best method of course, but it like all forms of treatment has it's drawbacks. It was wonderful hiking in the 60's and 70's as a kid. We never worried about water quality, just hook your sierra cup on your belt and drink as you go. Now, to stop and filter (or boil or chemically treat or whatever) just to refill is a pain. People instead wind up lugging more water along, even in areas where water is readily available.

Wouldn't it be nice if there were something along the lines of a litmus test for giardia? Peel off a test strip, dip it in the water, if it turns green, drink away, but if it turns red, don't drink. Well, I can dream, can't I?

giardia epidemiogy

You are probably right, 'dogs. Article indicates that critter giardia and people giardia look the same but are genetically different, and it is not clear that beaver giardia can infect folk. The other possibility is sub clinical infection. Some folks can probably live for a long time with a giardia colony on board without a lot of symptoms.

From what I've read, many people who are exposed to giardia won't show any symptoms and many of those who do show symptoms experience mild discomfort and recover without medical intervention. Apparently, it's actually a fairly small percentage of the populace that will have severe symptoms. Not that I want to play "giardia roulette" and find out which category I fall into.

ugh, i've had giardiasis in high school before. it was during a backpacking trip, i got the drinking water mixed up with the river water and took a healthy gulp... but to be honest, the treatment was worse than the giardia. while i had the "runs" from the giardia, the antibiotics for treatment (furizolidone?) made my stomach hurt really, really badly. i also lost control of my bowels a few times... not a pleasant sickness to get.

Thanks for sharing, steelie-

when you compare giardia to other waterborne parasites-
guinea worms , for instance-the giardia seem pretty tolerable.

!!! Shades of Alien! Yikes!

I had giardia once, and there was nothing occasional about the symptoms. I took what the doctor called "Flagyll" on the script and that got rid of the giardia. Then I drank about a gallon of buttermilk and ate about half a gallon of yogurt to replace everything else the meds got rid of too.

The symptoms from Giardia infection for me ranged from mild discomfort to full on distress, and though variable, were constantly present. The meds left me with a raw feeling inside, ravenously hungry.

My sister got giardia from the ice in her margarita in Nogales, Mexico, so don't only "not drink the water" there, I guess. It apparently lived in the ice (her doctor stated).........
I live in Cali, so I'm fairly sure the snow, except it very high elevation, is not safe, based on the airborne particulates present everywhere.........
Cryptosporidium, and/or brain eating amoeba critters (I forget the scientific name, causes encephalitis or similar), I think I'll always treat my water, either by UV or long boil or chlorine or something.........

Interesting. I've always been advised not to get ice in my drinks in Mexico, but I didn't think that it would be giardia that would be the issue. I've read that giardia is killed by freezing temps. Can giardia really be contracted from ice?

I'd be curious to see some research on particulates on California. I suspect such research would reveal it's not much of an issue in California. California isn't prone to acid rain. I wouldn't collect snow near a road or railroad track, but otherwise I think you'd be pretty safe even at lower elevations

Both my wife and I have had it, and we both had severe symptoms. It's not pleasant, like having constant stomach flu. Like Benjammin, we took Flagil (Metronidozal, I think), and it works like magic in a day or two. But you have to take the whole 10 day course.

I did some searching. The answer? "Yes." Giardia can and does survive freezing. Ice (or ice cream for that matter) made with contaminated water is not safe.

However, giardia does not survive well in freeze-thaw cycles for more than two weeks. See also this article. Therefore, what I've read is true, that in areas that experience freezing winters, giardia contamination must be re-introduced every spring. It's no wonder then that places like the Sierra Nevada in California have very little giardia. See this article. Perhaps the most important protocol in the Sierra is not water treatment but hand sanitization.

Again, I'm not trying to dissuade people from treating their water; water treatment is always a good precaution. However, in a survival situation, particularly one in a wilderness area with cold winters, drink. Oh, and wash those hands.

Hikin Jim, you're a wealth of knowledge!

And I'm sure, in Nogie, that ice was fairly fresh....

And yes she went undiagnosed, and then misdiagnosed, for nearly 2 years, just suffering through bouts as the critter went through it's cycle. If I recall, it finally took a third stool sample before a doctor spotted it (humiliating for her).

And yep, dirty hands probably account for the vast majority of contamination.

For the particulate matter, you know as well (since you live in SoCal) as I that you can practically taste the air out here, it's gotta be something more than just CO2 making the sky thick. An ounce of prevention, but you could bet if I was in dire straits I'd take the chance.

Re my previous posts:

If heat is availible from a fire, which you are using to warm yourself, you might as well take advantage of the situation to sterilise your water.

Absolutely. Particularly in cold wx, boiling beats the pants off of chemical treatments. Chemical treatments take a long time in very cold water. Instead of the 30 minutes listed on the iodine bottle, several hours are required. With chemical treatments, you're almost better letting them work overnight. Chemicals? Nah. Burn, baby, burn.

There's a bit more of a problem in areas where fuel is scarce or fires are prohibited. I guess a filter is your best option in cold wx under those circumstances, but one has to be careful to not leave water in the filter. Water left in the filter may freeze, rupturing the filter and rendering it useless. Alternatively, one could bring in a white gas (or canister depending on the type and conditions) stove and boil one's water, but that can add a lot of weight and bulk to one's kit. If temps are well below 0C/32F, then one will probably want to bring a stove anyway. With those temp, the water available tends to be the solid kind.