I have read a lot of the posts in the last couple weeks and have noticed several items that are missing that could be used possibly. What about bread ties, rubber bands, superglue? also intead of a tarp or visqueen, go to a commercial greenhouse and get some 4 year UV resistant poly.
Have a good day.

Caution,-"Gum-Bands" / Rubber Bands,-Have a Way of Deteriorating Real Bad on you!,-if you just Set them Down somewhere and Forget About Them!,-I Know! I Don't Know whether this Occurs over Weeks or Months,-but a Number of Times,-I've Looked Months Later,-and Saw Them So! Perhaps There are Ways to Care for Them, and Perhaps Extend Their Life,-Perhaps Not,-I Don't Know. But I Wanted to Sound that Note of Caution,-in the Event you may have been Unaware. [color:"black"] [/color] [email]hillbilly[/email]

A number of people on this forum and others carry 'Ranger Bands' around their PSKs and other pieces of equipment. These are large rubber bands made from pieces of bicycle inner tube. They hold the kit together and burn well. sure they have other uses too.
If bread ties are what I think they are (thin pieces of wire covered in a strip of plastic) then, they are not often used because they are flimsy, have a tendency to break and they rust easily.
Super glue is sometimes carried, often for use on open wounds, although I've heard a lot of medical people condone this and I don't carry any myself.

Hope this helps.

>>Super glue is sometimes carried, often for use on open
>>wounds, although I've heard a lot of medical people
>>condone this and I don't carry any myself.
^^^^^^^

Sorry to be pedantic, but I think you meant to type "condemn"?

No, i think "Condone" as in approve, suggest, support is what the point was.
Super Glue is a common item in a trauma med kit, I know a SWAT team leader who's FAK consists of little more than a few bandages, some tape and superglue.

Having worked for a veterinarian for 12 yrs, I understood that there was no hurry to close a wound under "field" conditions. Clean & cover to protect from further contamination, yes. But sewing, gluing or taping it closed isn't usually recommended, as debris & bacteria are likely to still be trapped in the wound, leading to infection.

>>I know a SWAT team leader who's FAK consists of little more
>>than a few bandages, some tape and superglue.

A SWAT team leader is not a doctor, a registered nurse, and probably not a paramedic. I would strongly recommend he get himself a real First Aid Kit (and maybe try to stay awake in his next Red Cross course <img src="images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> )

I can't do much better than quote an earlier post from one of our resident doctors, Trusbx:
=============================
I would caution all who carry superglue /dermabond / cyanoacrylate adhesive against using the glue to close wounds unless you are sure that it is clean or has been cleaned properly. An open wound can be cleaned and dressed to heal (albeit with a scar) but a dirty wound if sealed up will inevitably lead to infection and wound breakdown, or worse still deeper fascial infection.
General advice to all using glue to effect skin closure :
1. Clean the wound thouroughly
2. Wait for 24 hours and clean the wound again.
3. If no evidence of infection and you wish to close the wound, you can do so with the attendant risk (albeit reduced) of subsequent wound infection.

Never , ever close a dirty wound.
=============================

This pretty much echoes what I teach as a First Aid instructor.

A police officer, of all people, should know how to do proper First Aid, and he should carry a proper First Aid kit.

I know a Capt with a local sheriffs office, who as a Sgt was their SWAT leader for a number of years. I don't know what he carried, if anything, in the way of first aid supplies, but I do know that all of the medical trng he had was the Advanced First Aid required of all peace officers in CA. No way I would want him to to more than put a band aid on me...

in my PSK, I carry snare-wire, twine, ranger-bands, a trashbag and superglue. That is all that will fit in my PSK similar to the items you list. In my EDC (PSK + Other pockets and belt hanging items that are always with me) I have a Silnylon poncho/tarp, another trashbag, a space blanket and plastic poncho thingy. So that covers everything other than the bread ties. I carry a bunch of safety pins and the snare wire or the twine should cover those needs while being more durable and having more possible uses. In my BOB, which is intended to allow me to setup medium to long range survival, I have zip-ties of all sizes, and coat-hanger wire. These, when added to my snare-wire, trip-wire, twine, paracord, rope and variety of duct and strapping tape will cover just about any need for holding one thing to another. The full list of BOB items is too large for right now. I may post it later.

Regular rubber bands do indeed degrade with heat rather quickly , OTOH, Ranger-bands last much better. The innertube latex is both heavier and less likely to "dry out" than regular rubber bands.

I don't like the heavy poly since it is heavy. Prefer the lightweight waterproof nylon. I'm not planning on setting up for a 4 year stay under a tarp. If the scenario looks that long I will be making more use of the bow-saw, nails and rope to fashion some more durable shelter.

I second the practice of carrying nails. I've carried some 3 1/2" 16d common nails (about 12) in my vehicle kit for some time now. This is apart from all the tools and etc. that's in the tool box of my truck. Recently I was in a situation where I wasn't as prepared as I should have been, (shame on me) but having my PSK and my vehicle kit with me I was able to use the nails to speed up construction of a lean to.

I used the back of my Estwing hatchet for the entire constructon. Just remember to take them out when you leave.

Does anyone else have other survival related uses for nails? I would be interested in hearing them.

--Luke

I use them to make holes for stiching when working with plastics, leather etc... Heat it up until it's glowing red , grab them with your Leatherman and punch holes. Gives you clean edge that is less prone to tear and cracks.

Thin nailes can be used to repair boots if you have a piece of rubber handy and also they can be used as pins to keep nuts and bolts in place.

Matt

Disclaimer!!!The following information is my own opinion. If you choose to follow my advice you do so knowing I am not a liscensed MD.

DON'T BE AFFRAID OF TREATING YOURSELF

Super glue works great for closing wounds up. I don't indorse it being used INSIDE an open wound under the skin. It dries funny in open wounds and actually forms tiny flat sharp edges that can cut you up once the wound is closed. Topical application only. There are medical grade silicon and other types of adhesives but the average joe wont have access to these.

I prefer a few wound closure strips and then apply the superglu to keep the area free of dirt. Yes, as with any wound, if you don't clean it well, you will get debris/ bacteria trapped under the skin. The trick is to clean better than you think you have to alcohol, Iodine, alcohol, Iodine working your way out from the center of the wound- a clean applicator at each step. Letting a nasty dirty wound bleed for a little (as long as you aren't bleeding to death) is a good thing also.

Or if you choose to learn how to suture wounds and do this, a drop of Supergle on each knot protects them from unravelling. This is all basic firstaid on the small scale though. Things change when you start talking major injury.

Ironically, on a trip with a doc and his wife and some buddies we were climbing a razor wire fence to access a killer climbing spot and the wife cut her hand pretty bad. I was the only one with a first aid kit and the only one that stepped up to treat her. Sat her down, calmed her down, cleaned it very well and then the old wound closure strips and superglu. My nitrile exam glove came off my hand and then inside out on to hers and I athletic taped it on. She was able to climb the rest of the trip with no worries, and wore her scare like a badge of honor.

>> Disclaimer!!!The following information is my own opinion. If you choose to follow my advice you do so knowing I am not a liscensed MD.


Well, no offense, but Trusbx is a licensed MD so I think I would rather take his advice <img src="images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

>>Ironically, on a trip with a doc and his wife and some buddies we were climbing a razor wire fence to access a killer climbing spot and the wife cut her hand pretty bad. I was the only one with a first aid kit and the only one that stepped up to treat her.

I've been told that a lot of MDs will defer to a trained First Aider in a first aid situation as not all doctors are trained or current in First Aid techniques and are more used to treating patients in a hospital or medical clinic, where they have lots of trained staff and specialised equipment.

>>Sat her down, calmed her down, cleaned it very well and then the old wound closure strips and superglu.

Again, please don't take offense but I would have just used gauze and tape, probably some roller gauze to keep the dressing in place, and probably achieved just the same effect.

I'm not sure that finishing the climb would have been my main priority, either <img src="images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

I carry a tube of superglue because I can use it to fix things in the field very easily. NOw I know some of you may cringe at this, but I used it to seal my camelbak one time when I was in the field and it sprung a leak. I have had ab out 50 or more liters out of it I am still fine! I would not use it to close a wound unbless I absolutely had to, mostly because I have a complete medkit in my camelbak anyway.

But Superglue does come in handy when something is leaking or something is cracked or broken.

Garrett

aardwolfe, thank you for the thoughtful reply. I totally understand. I did put a disclaimer there for the very reason you stated.

The beauty of the internet is you can choose to believe whatever you want. I'm not offended at all. If fact, I encourage you to put the same level of skeptisism you approach my opinion with, to all opinions you read on this webboard, especially those of an MD.

Just to clarify, we're dealing with a survival paradigm, so superglu isn't used to prevent infection or aid in healing time or anything similar to that. Its sole purpose is to keep the wound closed. Since this young lady's wound was on the palm of her hand and was very deep, it most likely would have needed suturing. But by the time we could've gotten her to a clinic the wound would have closed enough on its own that no MD would advise suturing. So the Superglu was to enable her to use her hand. That she used her hand to climb is irrelevant. I don't know why her husband didn't step up to treat her or to even console her. I don't think he thought I knew more than he did.

Climbers are an unusual breed, I admit, and usually when things go bad for us we must act quickly, independently, and with very limit resources at hand. My advice comes from that perspective. There are numerous ways to get yourself killed once you step into the mountains without getting verticle. Add that extra element of height and you are in a constant state of survival- always having to keep your cool, even if you are 30 feet past your last piece of pro, a storm system moving, your arms pumped to the max, and the hardest part of the route yet to come. Keep Cool and act logically!

The superglu is just logical to me in some circumstances. Not for everyone though, and I except that and understand that.

>>The beauty of the internet is you can choose to believe whatever you want.

I hope I'm not getting out of line here, but I'm not even going to pretend I understand the logic behind that statement.

What you choose to believe is irrelevant. Try believing you're an eagle, and jump off a cliff; see how much additional hang-time your "freedom to believe" nets you.

Rest, elevation, and direct pressure will control bleeding, regardless of whether you choose to believe it or not. Likewise, closing a contaminated wound with superglue, or smearing butter on a second degree burn, may result in infection and blood poisoning - regardless of whether you choose to believe it or not.

>>I encourage you to put the same level of skeptisism you approach my opinion with, to all opinions you read on this webboard, especially those of an MD.

Why "especially those of an MD"? That makes no sense; are you really saying I should be more skeptical of someone who's thoroughly trained than of someone who isn't?

First of all, trusbx isn't just an MD, he's someone whose opinion I have come to respect. Second, his advice is in line with mainstream medical opinion; yours is not. Third, there are valid medical reasons for why his advice is better than yours, regardless of who has what letters behind his name. For example, even I can understand that nobody is going to bleed to death from a cut to the palm of the hand; whereas they could die from blood poisoning, infection, or necrotizing fasciitis. Therefore, it makes logical sense that preventing infection is more important than closing the wound.

>>Just to clarify, we're dealing with a survival paradigm,

Well, you were not dealing with a survival situation. Nobody is going to bleed to death from a cut on the palm of the hand.

>> so superglu isn't used to prevent infection or aid in healing time or anything similar to that. Its sole purpose is to keep the wound closed.

Preventing infection should be your first priority for a non-life-threatening wound, and your second priority should be to stop the bleeding. Stopping the bleeding and closing the wound are two different things, btw.

>>Since this young lady's wound was on the palm of her hand and was very deep, it most likely would have needed suturing.

Says who? I.e on what medical authority do you base this statement?

>>But by the time we could've gotten her to a clinic the wound would have closed enough on its own that no MD would advise suturing.

Again, on what medical authority do you base this statement?

>>Climbers are an unusual breed, I admit, and usually when things go bad for us we must act quickly, independently, and with very limit resources at hand.

All the more reason to get proper training, and not rely on old wives' tales and home remedies. <img src="images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Sorry, I seem to be coming across a bit strong here; and believe me, if this was just an academic point of interest, like "Are Sebenzas really worth over $200?" I'd probably just drop it. But imagine how you'd feel if someone came on this forum and tried arguing that a reef knot was just as good as a follow-through Figure-8 for tying yourself off to a belay line? <img src="images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

I think that it is important to try to weed out foolishness whenever it is recongizable - especially on the net where many present Foolishness as fact with the expectation that they will be believed.

First anyone can impersonate any level of accredidation anonymously on the net and we have no verification availablie other than checking their statements with others whose accredidation we can verify and seeing if they are likely to be what they claim to be. In the case of Truxbx it is fairly evident to most - if not all - of the usual participants on this forum that TruxBx is in fact highly trained and qualified medical opinion. Whether he is really a well read nerd or a practicing doctor is something that you will have to verify in 3d space for yourself. (TruxBx, no offense meant - I believe and rely upon your opinion, accredidation and experience - just making a point).

Second, If the wound you treated didn't evoke a medical response from the doctor on the scene then it was probably not a survival situation. If the individual injured had sufficient use of the hand to go on to complete a technical climb of any level of challenge then it wasn't a survival situation. If it didn't sever any tendons or sufficient muscle to impair the individuals ability to climb then it wasn't likely to require suturing anyway. If anyone had bother to suture that wound it would have been for cosmetic reasons.

Third, Climbers are an unusual breed? Climbers who climb more than once are not stupid so I would expect that you are either not stupid or not likely to climb for long. If the injured individual was able to climb and the climbers in the party concluded that the injured individual was not going to be a liability to their ascent - as seems to be the case in this scenario - then there was no urgency to close the wound. If the would need that level of care then I would expect that the party would have returned home to attempt on another day without the liability of the wound. A climbers hands have not only their own life but the lives of the entire party. An injured hand is a very dangerous thing. Seems that not only did the injured party not consider it a liability to climbing but the entire party also didn't consider it such. This doesn't sound like a survival situation. Had this happened after 100' vertical climbing with no alternative of climbing either up or down then stabilizing the hand (potentially including closing) might have been needed to make the hand more usable during the subsequent climbing required to get out. This happened (by your description) within a few yards of the car walking out being much easier.

It maybe that you haven't properly explained the scenario. It may be that you defend your judgements simply because they were your own. It maybe that you are convinced of the correctness of your decision because providence prevented the potential negatives from occuring. I would suggest that you might want to reconsider your position on this. Simply because I have ridden and even been thrown off a motorcycle at speed greater than 40 MPH without wearing a helmet doesn't make it a reasonble or safe thing to do. I have been lucky not to have killed myself and I enjoy riding "free" but I wouldn't attempt to promote the idea of riding "free" as a safe or reasonable activity. You may feel right in closing a wound in the field and you may have (or believe that you have) the skill necessary to properly clean the wound and close it and predicably escape the negative potentials just as I believe that I have the skill to not be killed riding "free". But don't presume that the casual reader of this forum has that skill when all statistical evidence is to the contrary.

Minime - no offence taken <img src="images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

I agree that we have to put things right. People coming to this forum for information will be misled by dangerous practices.

The official stand is what aardwolf quoted in his post earlier.

For those who choose not to heed the advice, so be it.

With all the talk on snares we've had on this forum, I don't think anyone has addressed how they attach the snare to the anchor. Personally, I create a tight, sturdy loop in the tag end of the snare, pass it through a fencing staple, and then drive it into a tree. You don't have to drive it in all the way to make it strong enough to hold small game.

Remember to carry atleast enough staples / nails for each snare.

Another thought would be to just wrap the tag end around the anchor and twist it tight. But that would result in using a lot of length of the snare just to anchor it. Large zip ties might also be used, but I haven't tried it.

What are the thoughts on this?

--Luke