Wouldn't it be more rational for this "Post 9/11" age for an urban survival kit to contain a gas mask or antidote for a nerve agent? In a urban area a person may need this more than a fishing hooks and line anyway, right? <img src="images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

We could argue the merits for a post Dec 7, 1941kit also. Submarines shelling our shores, explosive laden balloons heading for the northwest and lots of people who look like the bad guys in a John Wayne movie. The fact is we defeated that threat. Gas masks and various antidotes have been well discussed on the forum and their usefullness dismissed. I believe the urban kits are very usefull for any contingency; manmade or natural. My grandfather ALWAYS carried fishhooks in the city. They thwarted many a would be pickpocket <img src="images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Chris, has the usefulness of gas masks or hoods truly been dismissed? I would agree in general, or if I were in Salt Lake City or Chicago, but I'm not and I'm not yet ready to write them off.

I'm in DC, as you know. I don't have a mask or a hood and I don't plan on getting one, absent a reason. Congress, the Defense Department, and at least one other agency in DC think otherwise and have provided their employees with hoods. I gather that a number of other agencies are considering whether to issue masks or hoods to their employees, and certainly many first responders in DC have masks.

I'm not willing to put down these developments as government being foolish. I think, perhaps, masks or hoods may have a place in an urban survival kit, if one is in Jerusalem, NYC, or WDC. Otherwise, I would agree with you.

atty_guy

Hoods are certainly usefull in smoke filled buildings, and gas masks when you know an attack is coming. Governments issue equippment as much for psychological comfort as true effectiveness. During the blitz the British fired huge artillary pieces into the air. The chance of a shell hitting a Hienkel was nil. The sound of those big guns to the people in the undergrounds was worth every roundl.

Please search the past threads on this issue. When using the search feature of the site make sure you set the filter to be all threads - by default it will only show the posts from the current week. To recap some salient points:

1) Terrorists don't announce their attacks. If a terrorist were to send a bio weapon (say anthrax) to a victim the first notification that anyone would have is the actual delivery of the weapon. Anyone within immediate reach would be dosed without warning - no time to put on any protective gear. As happened in Daschles case.

2) With months of training the army was able to get full protective suits on in under 9 seconds and that was considered the survivability limit. Without a full protective suit all of the nerve agents will quickly infiltrate any exposed skin making the mask and hood a delaying tactic at best. The army had the benefit that all of the delivery systems they were vulnerable to were on the tip of a missile and could be detected on the way in providing decent forewarning. The gov. of Isreal supplies masks to it's citizens for protection against missiles that would allow for warning and reaction time. The gov. of Isreal doesn't provide any specific defensive gear for it's citizens against suicide bombers or any other terrorist action.

3) Most (if not all) mask / hood combinations can be useless or dangerous if not properly fitted and this is not something that can be determined by an amateur.

4) The filters used for many of the worst agents have a useful shelf-life and are expensive. If your's is out of date don't bother with it it won't help.


There are a lot of nifty survival tools marketed to us. Some are bonafide useful in almost any situation - such as the Spark-Lite. Some are simply sold because they can be and aren't worth it - such as those hollow handled rambo knife survival kits, which snap at the junction of the blade and hilt and spill their contents on the ground the first time you catch it on the brush while running.

If your employer offers you a mask/hood combination ask what scenarios they are preparing for. If they are helping you prepare for terrorism ask what amount of warning they expect to give you in which you can don the hood. If they are helping you prepare for inbound missiles you might want to consider relocating or enlisting so that you get the proper training and a full suit.

These are just my recollections. BTW, shortly after 9/11, I bought masks for everyone in my family and I live in rural NH. I have since learned that the army surplus that I bought would be mostly useless, the adult ones which I bought would probably kill my kids due to differences in air exchange rates required for the smaller folks, the filters were not only out of date but also out of spec for the current threat. I would be glad to sell them to your for your use at the $90 that I spent. <img src="images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

The most effective use of a nerve agent is in a closed environment such as a building ventilation system or in a subway tunnel.
The vapor is NOT a contact toxin and requires inhalation, hence the utility of a mask.
There are industrial masks that have vapor filtration canister filters that are suitable for protection from chemical agents. They are inexpensive (relatively) and effective. They come fresh in sealed containers with a reasonable shelf life.
Military surplus is largely junk. I would not consider their use.
Hope this helps
Jeff

Your grandfather sounds a lot like mine. Mine was never without a pocketknife. Maybe that's where I get the "habit" from.

industial gasmask are desinged to stop specific fumes/gasses, so these mask may not stop al gasses/fumes. It can give a false sense of security. SO buy the real good gasmasks ( like the M-95 ) stuff from company's who sell brand new masks from the manifacture, with's past the tests. personally i think i do NOT need such a mask, but thats just me.

As always, whether we're talking about carrying nothing but $10 worth of water on the desert hike, or having a gas mask... its an optimization problem. Everyone has a different idea about what is the optimum for EDC.

And since everybody's situation is different, its possible for everybody to even be right (for their situation)! You live where the risks of terrorism is at their greatest level. You also live in a place where the cost of living is probably near the highest in the country. That means that the value of $100 to you, is quite different than its value to us. I think you should have a mask, just make sure you get a good one for yourself and your family.

If I were you, I would do the same. But for me, the money is better spent on other things. For example, that same $100 is a good start towards a backup generator for my house in the woods.

I agree pretty much with whats been said below.

Terrorists might 'engineer' some kind of amateurish chemical or biological weapon, but don't forget that the military spends billions developing the correct delivery systems. That kind of technology isn't bought off the shelf.

Chemical, and particularly biological, weapons are quite sensitive to conditions and environment, so I suspect most home-made jobs wouldn't be particularly lethal anyway.

I too was in the army. I could get that mask on in 5 seconds but it took months of training. You also need to know how to adjust the mask, change filters, eat, drink and crap whilst suited up. I just think that the remote possibility of an attack doesn't warrant all that expense and training my wife and kids. The kids would be dead anyway because you just can't get a reliable child / infant mask.

Army surplus stores have cheap masks and suits because the military got rid of them. Once the shelf life is past they are useless. Forget the filter shelf-life, the rubber on the masks perishes as well.

Most of the urban kits i've seen on this site don't actually contain fish hooks, I know mine doesn't. But I could spend all that NBC kit money on a shed load of other useful stuff.