Got this request for interview subjects for the newspapers from a PR company I know, passing it along here, please note - DO NOT REPLY TO THIS PERSON IF YOU HAVE NOT PERSONALLY BEEN IN A LONG-TERM SITUATION W/O ELECTRIC BECAUSE OF HURRICANES.


Summary: Eating Well Without Electricity
Category: Lifestyle & Entertainment
Name: Jan M. Johnson
Email: hurricanefood@gmail.com

Deadline: 6:00 PM CENTRAL - September 30

Query:

"The extended power outages of hurricanes bring special challenges, namely what to eat and how to cook it. Were looking for unique
recipes from actual hurricane victims who are cooking (or just
stirring together) unexpectedly delicious concoctions in the face
of extreme circumstances.

Give us your tips on how to prepare, starting with the grocery
list. What did you buy that turned out to be a stroke of
brilliance? What food in your freezer were you able to turn into a
delicious meal? What keeps in the cooler better than you thought?
What foods would you NOT recommend? And what are the ingredients
needed to replicate your one-of-a-kind hurricane recipe? We want to
hear it ALL! Any other long-term, no-power survival tips are also
welcomed.

Please email your response to hurricanefood@gmail.com. Be sure to
include your name and the name, date, and location of the hurricane
you survived (example Ike 08, Houston, TX) along with your tips and
recipes. We will follow up your submission with a more detailed
survey. All selections will be properly credited.

This is a pretty strange request. How do you cook without electricity? Is common sense and practical knowledge really so lacking such as the know how to use a couple of cooking pots over an open fire or a gas stove etc, or are people really trying to rig up car batteries, inverters and microwave ovens because the TV dinner says to microwave the package on the instructions?

Are there really people out there who would stare blankly at a potato, then say 'what do you expect me to do with this?'

Apparently I even heard from some news reports that the first hot meal some folks had after Hurricane Ike had passed through days earlier was when McDs had opened up for business. Surely that must have been one of those news media 'dramatic' exaggerations!


Cooking without electricity isn't a problem, its doing the washing up afterwards thats the problem..

I'll go ahead and disqualify myself since I prefer to cook with gas and wood more anyways. LOL

This made me remember something my X-wife said to me once. My son and I were going camping and were talking about food (when I picked him up for the weekend) and I said for one of the lunches I had a box of Easy-Mac. She asked how you going to cook Easy Mac without a microwave? I told her a noodle has no idea what heated the water it’s sitting in, its just a noodle.

She just could not imagine cooking it in any way other then what the package (Using a microwave) said.

I think a lot of people can’t or will not even try to think in a way that is different then what they normally do. These are the ones the news media always puts on the nightly news to show how bad it is.

That's because those are the people that are waiting in line outside the just-reopened Burger Bell for their first hot meal while others are home working their way through two pounds of shrimp.

I don’t trust reporters to actually report things fairly and without a bias. I have a friend that is in a local gun club that was asked about a gun situation and the reporter seemed very nice when asking him questions. But when it got printed in the local paper it took on a very different anti gun slant. They took what he said out of context and it changed the whole thing. The asked a question and used his answer to another question to get the answer they wanted to convey.





I’m very leery of any printed story I see anymore, an uncut video is ok as you can actually see the whole line of questions, but not a newspaper.


For the most part the news media is not a friend of those that prepare for disasters and what if situations. They look at us and think wacko survivalist.




This e-mail came in about a week ago, but I have no interest in talking to, or trust of the press.

I'm an Associated Press reporter in New Orleans, working on an article about the civilian market for MREs and other long-term storage foods.

If you'd be open to an interview, please let me know when to call, and what number. My e-mail address is

janetmc@ap.org

(I checked with Doug Ritter about whether it's OK for me to make private inquiries like this. If you don't want to talk to me, that's your call. )

Janet McConnaughey
The Associated Press
1515 Poydras St., Ste 2500
New Orleans LA 70112

The question I have is how do you cook on anything BUT a gas stove?

But then Grandpa always said the food didn't "taste right" if it wasn't cooked on his wood burning stove.

Fresh corn fed rat Versus MRE

Sometimes it can be difficult to decide what makes a tastier meal.

The best thing we ever did for this was to take up backpacking. When we lose power, it's just an excuse to break out the backpacking stoves and play. With the Outback Oven, I can even bake a decent quickbread (cornbread, brownies, muffin loaf) on something as simple as a soda can alcohol stove. It sure makes all the rice/pasta/soup pouch meals go better.

Some brighter mind might want to jerk this journalist's chain, quoting liberally from the Roadkill Cookbook. I'm sure the recipe for some armadillo squash stew would brighten their daily.

This is something I've brought up a couple of times here. Cooking is a survival skill, and the best place to practice cooking is in the kitchen. The problem is not that people can't cook with out electricity, its that they don't know how to cook period. But like preparedness, most people will never see the need to learn how to cook.

I’ve been telling myself I need an outback oven for a few months.

I plan on getting one to play with over the winter.


What size one do you have?

Geeze, guys.

Ponder for a moment.

You live in an apartment building. The lights go out. You can't make a campfire. You can't go out back and kill an armadillo and strap it to the tailpipe of your '53 harley.

And as a point - some gas stoves WON'T work without electric - they have electric ignition and no pilot light and don't assume anyone knows they can jsut light a match.

So, you want to cook. No electric, no sterno, no camp stove. Now what?

Based on what I hear on my scanner, the obvious answer is to dial 911 on whatever will connect to the dispatch center.

It's done for skinned knees. It's done for 3 year old children "out of control."


Surely 911 can be relied upon to deliver some food?
Isn't that why we pay taxes?

So now what?

You die in a few days and the world is better for it if you are that stupid. Sometimes the gene-pool needs a little chlorine.



Or you adapt and use some brain power and go outside to cook.

Why can’t you cook with Sterno or propane or white gas or butane or wood or alcohol?

I live in a house and cook with some of those things every few weeks. All it takes is to go outside and cook, anyone can do this with a minimal amount of motivation and brain power.

I'll play along. Like the others here, left to my own devices I'd bust out any of the multiple camp stoves I have, or take an old coffee can and make a hobo stove like I've been meaning to do, and get my cookin' on. But assume I didn't have these things, and had to make do.

Well, most canned foods are already cooked. They may not be their most appetizing at room temperature, but they are edible. Hot dogs are also precooked (at least, all the ones I am inclined to eat) so there's that too. Eat those first, of course, because your fridge is out. If I'm not in an apartment that resticts it, I may have a propane grill to use for grilling/cooking. Even if all I keep in my pantry are baked beans and non-condensed soup I am in business for a little while, at least. Certainly enough to keep me away from the PODs until the grocery store spins back up.

As far as actual recipes for this stuff... well, I've never thought of it. Aside from a salad every thing I would think to cobble together would require heat because in a pinch I'd still have that to work with. Even jamboree mulligan needs heat to cook.

Actually, if they can't figure out something on their own, maybe it's best if they don't play with matches or Sterno or Coleman fuel or propane tanks... etc.

Every time there's a disaster or a storm, there's at least one story about people who do dumb things trying to cook and end up killing themselves (and their families). They're in a tightly closed camper and run the propane stove for warmth until they die. They don't have power, so they drag the propane BBQ into the living room and die. They bring a cheap BBQ and charcoal briquets onto the kitchen table and die of carbon monoxide poisoning. They try to heat something with candles, walk off for an hour, and burn the house down. They try to start a fire with gasoline and set themselves on fire.

Cold food is the only answer for some people. Of course, that's if they have the food.

And if they happened to have some armadillos around (not likely in NY and PA), and managed to catch one, clean it and cook it, they'd probably show up with leprosy.

Sue

I don't understand the overall hostility to the original post. They're looking for a human interest story. I don't sense any negative agenda. The gist of it is:

"Were looking for unique recipes from actual hurricane victims who are cooking (or just stirring together) unexpectedly delicious concoctions in the face of extreme circumstances."

Electricity is off. Doesn't say you can't have a gas BBQ, Coleman stove, wood stove or fondue set.

- - - - -

Martin upped the ante, though, with "No electric, no sterno, no camp stove."

That makes it a bit more interesting. As a rule, an apartment dweller is highly dependent on the grid, and is unlikely to start "unofficial renovations" to harvest wood from the walls.

Depending on the situation, they may be able to pool resources with other tenants or people in the neighbourhood. A couple of gas barbecues can help out a lot of people.

I agree that a blackout would be a very poor time to start building experimental stoves using volatile fuels.

Other than that, it's cold food. I do a lot of crude meals when camping, usually cold beans from a can with hot sauce and crackers. Barbaric, I know, but it keeps me going. A cup of hot tea (or a hot toddy) certainly adds a lot to a rough meal though.

Cornflakes, Salad and Scotch eggs?

Even a very basic home emergency camping stove can be had for less than $15.

http://www.amazon.com/Portable-Push-Butt...6491&sr=8-7

You can even get this stove with 5 butane gas cartridges for $23. With 5 cartridges that would last a family for about a week.

If these folks don't have a basic backup to even make a cup of tea or a bowl of porridge, then I suspect that these folks aren't even going to have any spare candles, flashlights, first aid kit, spare tinned food etc in their homes either. Can we call these folks the 'StarBucks Generation'?

How many Skinny Vanilla Lattes can you buy for $23?

How many Skinny Vanilla Lattes can you buy for $23?

ONE. LOL

Martin,

What is the deadline on submissions? I can add a lot to it.

-Blast, just back from Denver.

edit: Oh, there it is. Sept. 30th.

Hey, I didn't eat them all...I gave DW's cat one. Heck, considering my past history with him I think that makes me a saint!

-Blast

St. Merriwether of Spring Creek
Feast Day: July 4

Little about St. Merriwether is known for certain, as his name is thought to be a pseudonym. He attained the crown of martyrdom when an angry crowd applied a wet cat to each of his fingers and left them there. It is said he endured this brutal torture with great patience and serenity, even as his tormentors re-wet each cat as it began to dry out, thus renewing the pain with increasing intensity.

Also noteworthy is that St. Misseswether was acquitted and later canonized immediately after her own death, the fact that she put up with him for so long being considered a miracle.

He is the patron saint of animal bites

"I don't understand the overall hostility to the original post."

The article is for people who live in hurricane areas. It involves dealing with open flames, combustibles and carbon monoxide.

If the people who live in hurricane areas don't already have a few working brain cells, some common sense and a way to cook or heat water (if they have water) by now, this magazine article probably isn't going to accomplish much.

People who don't have much experience dealing with fire or thinking for themselves are the ones we tend to read about in the newspaper and Google News: burned people, burned houses, explosions, carelessness with flames and extreme heat, carbon monoxide poisoning, etc, etc, etc.

The people who think that being able to make coffee and heat a can of beans is a good idea will probably research it and learn what to do and not do, so they will be semi-competent when the need arises.

The others will whine and cry and wait for FEMA to deliver hot meals with fries and lattes. If, in desperation, they do remember this article mentioned BBQs and campfires, it may well exacerbate their problems.

Children shouldn't play with fire until they know how to do it safely.

Cynical Sue

Children shouldn't play with fire until they know how to do it safely.

Cynical Sue

LOL

I'm struck by the amount of hostility being projected towards those who aren't as "prepared" as some of the people on this forum seem to think that they are.

Can't help but wonder if the hostility, misquotes, quotes out of context, etc., isn't simply a reflection back onto the people who think that things like hurricanes are nature's way of cleaning the gene pool, that folks who go to places like Starbucks aren't as smart as those who frequent the local army surplus store, etc.

Does the inability of some people to pre-plan affect your own plans? If so, how and why is that?

Why such anger towards people who according to some I've read here, will be dead soon anyway due to their own stupidity?

I'm reminded of a scene in a great movie, "Cool Hand Luke" in which one of the characters, played by Ralph Waite, is scammed by some of the other prisoners and then punished by the guards, Luke, brilliantly portrayed by Paul Newman, wonders why those being imprisoned must treat one of their own with the same hostility as the guards do, claiming that they, the guards didn't need any help to be vicious towards other human beings. Are we really so callous towards others that when asked to give some practical advice we prefer to ridicule and scoff at the plight of our fellow human beings? Does the hurricane need our help?

John E

"No man is an island, entire of itself
every man is a piece of the continent, a part of the main...
any man's death diminishes me, because I am involved in mankind
and therefore never send to know for whom the bell tolls
it tolls for thee."

John Dunne

Starbucks Review

But seriously, I only mentioned Starbucks simply because when there are serious emergencies such as an earthquake, hurricane, global economic recession etc the Starbucks of this world will in most likelyhood not be there to give comfort and cosy re-assurance, well at least for many days or even weeks and possibly years. The convenient lifestyles that many of us lead in the developed west (1st world countries) is just the froth of the top of the cappuccino of life. Once the froth on top is gone that just leaves the coffee. You can either have your coffee hot or cold. All it means is that getting a gas camping stove for when the coffee gets cold will brighten up the day for many if only for a short period of time.

The learning curve will be a steep one. Complacency just means being further down at the bottom of the learning curve. I sincerely hope I'm wrong.

The joke about cleaning the gene pool up was mine and while it was a joke. It does have a serous point. All throughout humanity people that did stupid things like stay in a home that is below sea level right next to the sea when a hurricane is coming would have died. Others would see this and figure out it’s a very bad and risky place to live & work.


But in today’s world we have big daddy (the US government) coming to the rescue and actually pay these people money for their losses and also pay to rebuild in the exact same spot. Like a spoiled rotten kid these people have not learned it’s a bad spot to live they actually look for and demand the government to pay them and to their way of thinking this makes it a good place to live.



These people don’t have to pay for their homes to be rebuilt, they don’t have to think about putting food away, they don’t have to have gas in the tank to evacuate; they don’t have to know how to cook without electricity. The government rushes in to do all this for them.


I’m sorry, but I don’t feel too sorry for people that do this.

If it was not actually happening it would be laughable. Instead it’s a sad and pathetic thing.


There is a learning curve when big daddy rushes into take care of people every time something bad happens. but it’s curved in the wrong direction.

"I'm struck by the amount of hostility being projected towards those who aren't as "prepared" as some of the people on this forum seem to think that they are."

Really?

From Newsweek [http://www.newsweek.com/id/159669?GT1=43002]
"On hard-hit Galveston Island, some 20,000 people out of a total population of 57,000 ignored or were unable to comply with evacuation orders. Across Texas and Louisiana as a whole, about 100,000 stayed behind in coastal areas, compared to more than 2 million who sought shelter inland. For those who remained, the aftermath has been dismal—block after block of destroyed houses; no power, water or food supplies; and rank refuse piled up everywhere."

PREPARED??? Are you kidding? These people aren't even capable of rational thinking! Maybe they should erect a huge sign in what is left of Galveston that says "Complacency Kills".

Okay, let's say that 25% of those who didn't leave were either quadraplegics whose caregivers bolted in panic, or were just too poor to leave. That leaves FIFTEEN THOUSAND people on Galveston Island ALONE who figured if it got too bad, all they had to do was scream for help on their cell phones.

1. Most of these people had been through hurricanes before, and knew their power.
2. Most of these people figured that if they had survived all previous hurricanes, they would certainly survive this one.
3. Most of these people could have left, but chose not to.
4. Most of these people apparently figured that the laws of physics don't apply to them
5. If any of them had useful supplies, most of them figured they would still be sitting in the house, high and dry. How high is 'high' in Galveston? Ten feet of fill?
6. Most of these people apparently couldn't figure out what the phrase 'GET OUT!' means.
7. Did any of these people have a semi-rational plan?
8. How many bodies were washed out to sea and will never be found?

These are the same kind of people who read about babies drowned in bathtubs, then do the same. They have friends who drove drunk and died, and they still do the same. They've been told since childhood not to mix electricity and water, and they get fried. The crime rate is horrendous, and some people still don't lock their doors. Child molesters are everywhere, but lots of people don't know where their young children are much of the day.

So, tell me, John, is there some reason that I'm missing as to WHY I should NOT think these people are incredibly stupid? People with sense don't make the news much, do they?

Obviously you are free to think anything you wish about anyone you wish. I only wonder at the hostility displayed and wonder if, as I wrote earlier, does the hurricane need help? Do we really think that simply thinking of other people as stupid without knowing the hows or the whys of what they did or didn't do is a good thing?

There's a rule in football about not piling on, it's purpose is to keep a violent game from becoming a sadistic game. Seems like a good idea in general to me.

I've seen more than my share of devastation in my earlier career as a photojournalist, both natural disasters and war show little mercy towards those who either by fate or by being "stupid" end up on the front lines. I suppose that I like to think that we as people, can be better than that. Maybe we can't.

Perhaps those 15,000 souls you mentioned, like many people here, simply didn't believe the news reports or the newspapers when they were warned to go. Maybe all of them had a friend of a friend who got misquoted once and that convinced them that the media lies to the people all the time. How were they to know that this time it was true? Maybe they sat back and thought the news media were simply being stupid, trying to scare them into leaving their homes. Who knows?

Is the purpose of the ETS forums to learn and to share or is it to crow about our achievements in obtaining some mythical sense of well being cause we think we're "prepared"?

Does being empathetic demean me in some way that I'm unaware? Am I a lesser person for not calling those less fortunate names?

I guess I just don't get it.

John E

"
"the snow doesn't give a soft white damn whom it touches"

E.E. Cummings

Some people are, indeed, hardcore dependency cases, utterly unable to manage their own daily lives without assistance, for no good reason. But some people have such large and immediate problems, combined with such limited personal, financial and family resources, that they are working as hard as they can to barely keep their heads above water from day to day, and so emergency preparedness has to be either a low priority or totally out of reach.

Jeff

Darwinism is a biological theory, not a social one. Some people get that wrong.

Jeff

And it is the responsibility of adults to see that children learn to use fire safely.

Jeff

Indeed. There's a lot to be said for a bit of compassion for your fellow humans, and there's a lot to be said for a sense of duty to your community. I've always said that my own preparedness isn't just for me and my family, it's for me and anyone who needs help.

Here's a story you might like, on why you need to be prepared to help not just yourself.

My grandfather was a man who seemed to know everyone. His altruism seemed remarkably selfish on the surface, and his worldview was expressed (repeatedly) to me growing up, as follows:

"It always comes back to you, what you do for some guy in one place comes back somewhere else, so it's better for you to help a lot of people around you because you never know when you'll need their help when you're somewhere else."


My Grandfather didn't know what "karma" was by name, he knew it by instinct. And his Karma indeed did indeed spread wide from his little butcher shop in Queens, NY.

There was a little strip of stores - a drug store, a soda fountain, my grandfather's butcher shop, a laundromat, the post office and a deli. For a long while, we lived in one of the apartments upstairs from my Grandfather's shop. I was three or four, and would wander from store to store, visiting the shops and generally being a little kid back in the days when you let your little kids free-range.

Well, one day the drugstore owner closed up the shop when he retired, I remember he came to my grandfather's shop, we all said goodbye, I distinctly remember my grandfather shaking hands with him and giving him a big bag of meat and refusing payment in a protracted "argument" and for some reason my grandmother was crying. Eventually the store reopened under new owners. We moved out to Long Island, some years went by.

This was the early 1970's and the Interstate highway system was not really as built out as it was, and one year, we were driving up to our vacation home in New Hampshire (sort of near Clark's Trading Post, if anyone knows of that), when I started to develop a horrible rash, very quickly, and it was very painful. We were on some back-country road, somewhere in New Hampshire, and we didn't know of a local Doctor, or hospital or anything. So my mother looked at a map, and found a little dot of a town, and we drove to it, in hopes of finding some medicine for me, for we had nothing in the car suitable.

We roll into this little town, and there's a few stores - one of them is a Drug Store. We go in, and (by now you should be expecting this) the guy behind the counter immediately recognizes me and my father - of course, it's the guy from back in Queens. He grew bored in retirement so he opened a pharmacy. My rash was serious enough to require a prescription, so he called a doctor he knew for us, the doctor came by the pharmacy in a matter of moments, made a diagnosis, wrote a prescription, and everyone refused payment. My dad and he chatted for a long while, and eventually we drove off, and to this day, I marvel at this example of the way good deeds seem to be stored up for when you need them.

I'm happy to have a pile of AA batteries at all times, because I like to have my gizmos functioning, but I'm never hesitant to help out a co-worker or a friend or a stranger with a dead flashlight, and when we experienced river flooding in our area, I had no problem giving away stuff people needed that they "should have had" - stuff like containers for drinking water, stuff like a first aid kit, stuff like bleach to help clean their house. Yes, my own supplies were eventually replenished when the Red Cross and FEMA showed up, but in the short term, I was - am - glad to help others who need it.

Holed up with tons of stuff and screaming "mine!" is at about the emotional maturity level of a three year old.

Being judgmental and critical about people who don't have the exact same value system as you is the path we always take to war.

Your own "equippedness" is both a lifestyle decision and a value system. I personally like to be able to manage slightly complex emergency situations, and I personally like to be able to cope with serious emergencies in a hands-on manner, which is why I'm a volunteer firefighter/rescue technician. It gets my desire to "know what to do in an emergency" covered.

But at the same time, I know - and like - plenty of people who, I have to admit, are smarter than me and wealthier than me, and who have no particular preparedness plans for anything at all beyond maybe a flashlight and a spare tire in the car. They expect ME to know what to do in an emergency.

There have been a few times where I have gotten calls from friends with an emergency (for example lost 9 year old child in the woods, woman severe abdominal pain, small earthquake in the area) where I've told them - gently but firmly - that they need to call 9-1-1, not me. But what an honor and a what a great feeling for me to know that others think of me as a person to be relied upon in an emergency - and no, I don't belittle them for not calling 911, I don't denigrate their genes for not knowing how to tie a figure 8 on a bight or not knowing how to build a fire by a friction method. They are fellow human beings, and we have an obligation to use what our skills and abilities are to the ends of helping each other out, EVEN WHEN IT MEANS WE MIGHT NOT GET ANYTHING BACK FROM IT.

So, I post a simple question here - talk to a reporter about cooking without electricity. Simple question, could have a simple answer that would go a long way toward improving knowledge:

"If you have rubbing alcohol and a soda can, you can make a pretty good stove that burns cleanly, but that might not be needed as most prepackaged foods can actually be eaten without cooking."

And so forth.

But to turn the simple question into a case to make a value judgment against the types of folks who might not have thought about an improvised cookstove does nobody any good.

I have to say, I'm quite disappointed in some of the responses here. I wonder if, the next time you needed help with, say a car repair or a home improvement project, the person you went to for help instead belittled you for being an idiot for not knowing how to rebuild a transmission or install central air conditioning.

Are you equipped to survive and help others or is it just because you don't want anyone else to take your precious stuff?

I am pleased to report that, at every disaster I've ever responded to, I've found plenty of people like you, your grandfather, and his pharmacist friend, pitching in, helping out, and doing whatever needed doing. Often, these people were elderly, poor or working class, and also had suffered the loss of their own homes, jobs, etc. Typically, they viewed their exertions as nothing out of the ordinary.

Jeff

Well said, Martin.

Martin,
+100 on your post.

Martin,

With you 100% of the way. If someone needs something or something done and it is within my power and ability to help out, consider it done.

Throughout my life someone was there in times of crisis or to guide me through the pitfalls of life, how could I not do the same for someone else. We all make mistakes and can underestimate the results of a poor choice, I know I have and will likely do so again, although I do try to learn from my mistakes and not repeat the same one over and over.

Pete

A person builds a home below sea level next to the ocean and a hurricane wipes it out. I pay to have it rebuilt and also pay these people some money for living there (And I am paying some as we all are)

It happens again and we all pay them again. At what point do you stop rewarding stupid decisions on the part of the people that live below seal level next to the ocean in a hurricane zone? It seems some of you want to let them suck on that big government nipple forever, again and again and again.

I have nothing against them living there, after all it’s a free country. But I don’t like rewarding them with my money every time they get hit by a hurricane. Did I mention they live in a hurricane zone and several times a year they have a chance to get hit with a hurricane and have all of us pay to remodel their home?


I’m not saying to not help people, but to reward on going stupidity and dumb living decisions is not right either.

Bob,

I'm curious, you refer to "my money" quite frequently, are you paying some sort of fee to the people affected by natural disasters that I'm not aware of?

What is government's role if not to attempt to provide for it's citizens?

If the homes that you refer to are or have been financed, then they are insured and the cost of the claims is paid thru premiums. Not a dime of which comes from you.

Are you saying that there should be some sort of intelligence test to determine if the victim of a disaster should receive assistance?

Not trying to pick a fight, I just keep seeing the same responses and it makes me curious.

John E

Yes it's called taxes.

A great number of the people living stupidly below sea level next to the ocean in a hurricane zone don’t have flood coverage, why have it when the government comes in and to their rescue and rebuilds for them? Tax Money is what pays for this and the rebuild.


I think we do now and will continue to disagree on this, and to continue it will swing it into a political debate on taxes and how the government sees fit to always want more tax money and then to spend it in ways I don’t agree with. There are a great many points I could bring up, but it would not sway those on either side of the debate. I’m going to let it go at that and not keep going beyond this post.

Ah...the classic "There are only two kinds of money, my money and your money" line of reasoning, as espoused by certain economists. There's no "we" in that thinking.

So...how do you feel about the 10 billion dollars we spend in Iraq a month? How about the billion dollars we just spent in Georgia (the country, not the state) to rebuild it? How about the billions we send to Israel? What about the proposed 700 Billion to Wall Street? How about the Trillions of dollars for Medicare? What about Social Security? Food Stamps? You ever been poor? Ever needed help? I have. I know what happens when the Stuff hits the fan, I've been down. I know why we have taxes. I've spent your tax money in the past. I know people who are spending our tax money now to feed their kids. I personally spent some of your tax money on a generator for the firehouse (FEMA grant), a Firehouse that will NEVER send a fire truck to your house (unless you happen to live here in Bucks County in our district). It's OUR money when it's taxes, and that's a special class of money.

Yeah, I don't like to see tax money wasted, but you have to have some perspective. Unless you want a nation where you have to ask the authorities where you're allowed to live, unless you want a nation that requires a person to demonstrate some non-financial qualifications to the government in order to qualify for home ownership (like the Nazi's did), you're going to have people who make bad decisions and you can let them die or you can help them out. I'll just hammer home one point - I think living in New Orleans is dumb, I really do, and I think that if you don't have an emergency plan that includes evacuation, you're a fool (sorry Blast, I read your posts, I think you took an unnecessary risk and you were lucky). I also think that a civilized society does not abandon those who make mistakes, it does not punish mistakes, it goes with pride and honor to help those in need - and does not judge.

I'm not a Christian by any means, but there are some great lines written in the bible on the subject of helping the poor and downtrodden, and also on the matter of pride. "No casting of stones etc." is one of those concepts that is damn near impossible to live, especially when you want to smack the person you're helping in the face for being such and idiot. But you don't. You go above that. You suck it up, take the cost, and you work to educate them to help them not get into the situation again. That's what a civilized man does.

Martin;
+1 and well said.
I don't want to go too far off into political/economic theory etc., but IMO government and taxes are a form of "mandatory insurance" (like car insurance in most places) that I must pay for to have the benefits and privileges of living where we do. Like all insurance, we hope we don't need it, but when we need it, we really need it. Small example: last week my blood sugar crashed and I woke up with 6 guys and gals from the local fire dept and rescue squad standing around me and an IV in my arm. I pay for that protection in my taxes.

We can argue about how the powers that be may allocate the funds: that is why we vote. But I don't ever think that we can do without this "insurance" and abandon our fellow policy holders (citizens).

Just a couple of quick points - Gov't money (all types) is "our money" so by extension at least some of it can be considered "my money". Not everyone agrees with how it is spent but that goes with the territory. I agree that everyone should help each other in times of trouble but it does go a bit against the grain to help the same people for the same avoidable things time and time again. Or to borrow someone else's turn of phrase, some of us seem to keep paying "insurance premiums" while other keep turning in "claims".

What is government's role? This is an on going debate in lots of countries around the world and there are no universal answers to the question. In the US the most applicable answer is drawn from our constitution but even this is being debated regularly.

From Article IV, section 4: The United States shall guarantee to every State in this Union a PHRASECENSOREDPOSTERSHOULDKNOWBETTER. Form of Government, and shall protect each of them against Invasion; and on Application of the Legislature, or of the Executive (when the Legislature cannot be convened) against domestic Violence.

From the Preamble: We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.

My personal view is that this does not include "provide for it's citizens". I think there is a considerable distance from promoting to providing but there is lots of room for discussion in those two clauses and as I said earlier, this is only applicable in the US. Other countries are working from different outlines.

- Eric
"hoping to add value while not degenerating to a political discussion"

I said we would and do disagree on this and it would swing into a political debate if it kept going. This is why I said I was going to let it go at that.


But it’s interesting that we are not supposed to go political and a moderator is the one that then took it to a political debate bringing Iraq and the war on terrorism into it, the 700-billion bailout, the money we send to Israel, the money we sent to Georgia, The Bible, and several other things brought up that are political in nature and require a politically based response. I thought we were not allowed? (In the past I have had my post deleted for touching on political things, and seen statements to stop a thread direction that was starting to go a bit political.)

Why the double standard?

I’m not trying to give you a hard time, but it looks like a sliding set of rules because I don’t think the same way as you. You seem to think my post look simple minded. And they do without further deeper thoughts being posted, but that requires a much deeper jump into a political debate. It will get my post deleted and build animosity for going to this depth and it will do no good for anyone. This is why I said I was going to let that political debate as it applied to my posting stop there, and I have. This post is just me trying to understand the rules and to whom they apply and don’t apply to?

Please feel free to delete this if you feel the need to, but remember above you called me out to respond by asking for my opinion on several political based things in your post. I’m still not going to go political, the end result of doing so is deleted post because as I stated above we disagree and also political points are not the point of this BBS. I’m trying to respect this.

Actually, I live in a part of town where the people in charged of Houston asked that we not evacuate. The evacuations of Hurricane Rita taught Houston that those along the coast need to "run from the water", but those inland need to "hide from th wind". "Run from the water/hide from the wind" is the actual name of Houston's hurricane plan. I'm 72 miles inland. If I should have bugged out then it means the other 4,000,000 people between me and the coast should have also left. We saw what happens when that is tried back in Rita.

So anyway, I understand your thoughts but I don't think you have all the information. Now, if a cat.4 hurricane was coming I'd have been on the road bugging out like a cat with it's tail on fire.

-Blast

Kind of sort of back to the original topic. Here in Korea I've been cooking on an electric hot plate. Its pretty terrible at its job. It has a temperature control on the front which only seems to regulate how quickly it cycles between very hot and off. The problem with that becomes readily apparent when you try to cook an omelet or fry bacon on low heat. However, I just noticed the Koreans have a much better solution: a gas hot plate. Its pretty much a camp stove, except they use them for everyday cooking. Its also bulkier than all except for the big coleman stoves. Its also relatively flatter, heavier and thus more stable then most camp stoves. As soon as I get a chance to buy one, I think I'm going to relieve my electric hotplate of duty, except for boiling water and other sledge hammer cooking jobs.

Of course the added benefit is that if the power goes off for an extended period, I could still cook. Does anyone know if they're available in the states? They might be a good option for people who want to be ready for power outages, but aren't into camping.

Every hurricane plan needs to a path and *especially* a go/no-go time, but that doesn't mean you evacuate every time. Evacuations are hazardous too.

I grew up about 400 *feet* inland on Galveston Bay and the entire time I lived there we never evacuated after Hurricane Carla - because it was never necessary, in that house, based on tides, storm surge estimates, etc. My mom grew up on a farm without electricity or running water and we were campers, so we just camped for a couple of weeks. The hazards of staying are greatly overstated by those unfamiliar with the problem...

Depending on your tree situation I doubt it's necessary for you to leave for a Cat 4 though it may be a lot more convenient than waiting a few weeks for air conditioning to return...

PS. We would have left for Ike no doubt - the storm surge forecast called for as much as 2 feet of water in that house (didn't even come close, but you don't know that ahead of time). Our go-no-go point would have been Wednesday morning.

Yeah, I broke the rules. Fire me or cut my salary in half. A little tired of keeping the gloves on.

Martin,

Being able to step in ans say what others can't, by the rules, is one of the few perks that you have earned/gotten through your efforts.

For all that you do, BZ!!

Yeah...ponit made...rule broken.....

He's earned the right.

It's just a god damned piece of paper!

LOL I know the feeling, several BBSs I’m on I would like to make one point or another. But, you know how it goes…..

I did not say that well.

The *hazards* of riding out a hurricane are overstated, though it's a case-by-case thing based on trees and flooding potential.

The *difficulties* of riding out a hurricane are greatly underestimated. It's basically camping out for three weeks, the ancient, long forgotten form of camping without TV, cell phones or air-conditioned motor-homes.

When the politicians told most Houstonians to stay and not evacuate and I thought there would be a huge outcry when people found out how difficult life would be afterward. But apparently most realize it's just a hard problem.

"I'm not a Christian by any means, but there are some great lines written in the bible on the subject of helping the poor and downtrodden, and also on the matter of pride. "No casting of stones etc." is one of those concepts that is damn near impossible to live, especially when you want to smack the person you're helping in the face for being such and idiot. But you don't. You go above that. You suck it up, take the cost, and you work to educate them to help them not get into the situation again. That's what a civilized man does. "

The point is, forced charity is an oxymoron. You can't claim any magnanimity when you have no say in the matter. Redistribution of wealth is and has always been larceny. As I watch more and more of my earnings going toward things I would not otherwise support, I have less and less capacity for charity, that is to say the volume is diminished, but not the spirit. It is this contradiction that angers me about those who put themselves or remain in harm's way when they know better, and I am burdened with their salvage and recovery. Charity cannot ever be a burden, they are diametrically opposing aspects. Charity cannot be taken, it can only be given freely. What is being done now in our country, and has been done for quite some time, is not charity. It is robbery and fraud, and it will end only when the supply is exhausted, which is happening quickly.

To say that government bailout in one instance is okay and another is not is a red herring. None of it is ever any good.

So, name a single government body - anywhere, at any time - where taxes were taken and the allocation of said taxes was 100% at the discretion of the taxpayer.

I'll wait here while you look it up.

It seems you are trying to condone the bailout and unchecked spending by saying a government be it state or federal is going to spend money in some way any given tax payer doesn’t agree with, so we should just let it go spend crazy and unchecked.

To give in and decide that we have no control at all over government and to say “the heck with it” and let them spend like a drunken sailor is a bad way to let our government do things. In a perfect world you can blindly trust the government.

In a perfect world I would have a billion dollars, a long life and wake up every morning with a hot super model that loved sex.


But on both accounts, reality is somewhat different…




The people in the ongoing flooding areas expect the government to rescue them every time, again & again. And it’s going to do it every time. This comes at a cost of an ever increasing taxes on the people.

It's even better to fall asleep next to one...or two.

-Blast, missing his youth more and more

SPAM