Why is it when any segment of the economy is making money hand over fist (insert appropriate industry here) they want no govt involvement, interference, regulation or pay taxes. When it hits the fan they want a bailout and rules to CTA and blame everyone else.

Kinda sounds like teenagers!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ecFBcpY9NHI

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lNlYBNTCBG8

Financial pirates will always sail their ship over the edge of a flat world...

When I lived in Pennsylvania, we lived near the Amish country. We got snowed in every winter, sometimes more than once. I mean, the kind of snowed in where you don't go anywhere for a week. And nobody freaked out about it. We always had 2 weeks of food on hand. It was called "living".

I don't think people there would understand whats happening here now. We city dwellers really don't need to keep a calorie of food in our house, everything is available 24 hours a day. Thats one problem with discussing survival ... its vastly different for people in different populaces.

According to my Dear Old Dad, in Florida they now recommend that people keep one to two weeks of food on hand. But really, that should be everywhere.

I agree with you. If the company needs to fail, it needs to fail. If people are only prepared to die, then they need to be allowed to die.

We see these lessons with our children again and again... you can't bail them out constantly or they learn nothing.

On the plus side, these masses are easily controlled and manipulated, but I haven't quite got my fleecing mechanisms in place. I need a couple more years for that.

OK, here's the harsh truth.

1. Money is Debt. The greater the debt, the more money banks have. They don't actually LEND you $400,000, they create $400,000 as a credit to your account, and then, figuring in your interest, they then can record an asset on the books up 9 TIMES your loan (because of interest and all that.)

2. Credit Card Debt is Money. Sure, you might hate it, but the fact that you owe and owe and pay interest is also a critical part of the money supply. If everyone paid off their bills and lived within their means, it would be CHAOS for the economy.

3. Banks and Investment Firms were kept separate by the Glass Segall Act. Republicans wanted the act repealed, and Democratic President Clinton did so. They are both to blame. John PHRASECENSOREDPOSTERSHOULDKNOWBETTER. is no stranger to financial debacles, being a core member of the Keating 5 from the Savings and Loan debacle of the 1980's. PHRASECENSOREDPOSTERSHOULDKNOWBETTER. was playing with matchbox cars when PHRASECENSOREDPOSTERSHOULDKNOWBETTER. was swindling people out of their life savings.

4. What we have now is NOT AT ALL PHRASECENSOREDPOSTERSHOULDKNOWBETTER. - it's PHRASECENSOREDPOSTERSHOULDKNOWBETTER. - in which the Government supplies private firms with public money to the ends of furthering government power without the need for public oversight.

5. The money spent on the bailouts so far could have provided every living American with free health care for life.

6. The worst is yet to come, because with 70 Trillion+ in unfunded obligations and tricks like the AIG bailout (which was 79.9%, not 80% of the ownership, thus keeping the transaction "off the books" for the US Govt), the simple fact is that the USA is bankrupt. In the same way a homeowner in forclosure might still be able to drive a car and go out to dinner, it's like Wile E. Coyote running off a cliff - the thud is inevitable. We're off the cliff for a few years now, this is the "looking down so gravity takes effect" moment.

My urban co-workers usually kid with me about preparedness and the like. Yesterday, we spoke - in earnest - about stockpiling of "easily bartered goods" and they were quite pleased to have the discussion.

Without this bailout, things would be much much worse. But it's not PHRASECENSOREDPOSTERSHOULDKNOWBETTER.. PHRASECENSOREDPOSTERSHOULDKNOWBETTER. is a cuss word in America, it's a way of life for a huge portion of the world. I have plenty of happy, prosperous friends in places like Finland, Spain, Germany and France, all dreaded "PHRASECENSOREDPOSTERSHOULDKNOWBETTER." nations, and yet, for some reason, when I see them, they seem quite happy. They don't have health bills, they don't have to fear for their jobs (as much as we do). They pay insane taxes - 75% in Finland, and high gas prices (8.00 a gallon in the UK). In Finland, College is free.

As a US Citizen, you get it into your head that "free markets" are the only way, and the Capitalism is the only real system worth following. We have nothing - nothing at all - like Capitalism here. If we did, two things would be true. First, this bailout would never have happened, but secondly, you would never have had anything like bankruptcy protections laws and you'd have debtors prisons. Also in a pure capitolist society, you'd not have a fire department or police department, public water supply, sewers, or anything like a Department of Health. baby formula killing kids? Buyer beware! Cars exploding due to defective gas lines? Buyer Beware!

My point here is that this shock to our economic system - this fake free market - is most likely the first of many to come, and the Financial Alchemy of the Wall Street Robber Barons is hardly all over.

Everyone is talking about this and that with the economy. I, unfortunately, am not very good at seeing the big picture with the economy. I am a smart guy, but “the economy” is insanely huge and complex.

I just finished watching the latest video in this series, after seeing it recommended on another forum I visit, and I thought it would be a good resource to share with everyone here. The Crash Course by Chris Martenson is about the most well-rounded and put-together presentations I have ever seen on the current state of the economy. I highly recommend viewing it to those who are interested in better understanding the big picture and have the time to devote to a video series that encompasses approximately 20 videos that are 10–20 minutes each.

I feel much more educated after watching this series than I was before.

(This post was in reply to martinfocazio’s simply because of the similar subject nature.)

Ok, I edited my post and changed the name to protect the guilty.

True, 99% of money is just bookeeping.


True in as much as if everybody did any one thing all at one instant there would be chaos.


Funny, a "money" guru on the radio that I agree with 99% of the time was calling it PHRASECENSOREDPOSTERSHOULDKNOWBETTER. but that just didn't ring right with me. "Nationalization" is the word I'm looking for.


IF spent wisely. Need I say more?


I do business with Europeans every day. I often marvel that they can produce anything worthwile. Of course college is free, they need a college level income to tax!


I agree that our market is far from free, but it needs to be more free, not less. As you say, our market still produces deadly baby formula an exploding cars from time to time despite all the regulation.

In any case, life goes on, and if the sky does fall we'll figure out a way to survive. That's what ETS is all about.

PHRASECENSOREDPOSTERSHOULDKNOWBETTER., PHRASECENSOREDPOSTERSHOULDKNOWBETTER., I look at the whole thing as a bell curve, with those two as polar opposites. The curve represents the most productive economic condition in the middle, and inversely repesents government control out to the extreme case at either end. The more the government gets involved, one way or the other from center, the less effective our economy is at supporting production and growth, and the more our wealth, or in this case income, is redistributed to either special interests, or to just buy votes it seems.

With all the government funding going into relief and security on the one side, and simultaneously going into bailing out the financial system, I guess we are getting rotisseried from the ends. Hundreds of billions of dollars of net worth are getting stripped off on both sides, and like Martin says, there's no end in sight.

I wonder how long we'll be able to sustain this.

Instead of bailing out the folks who took a big risk for a big reward and lost, a real pirate would look at this as an opportunity for a walk-the-plank party -- the sharks would eat big.

The reason it's called a bail out is because the folks benefiting from this deal probably belong in jail, or at least debtors prison. Instead the Fed is allowing them to stay personally solvent and they'll probably even keep the $million bonus they awarded themselves last year for looking so good on paper.

Success has its rewards and now that the Fed has removed the consequences, there is no risk. Getting rewarded for taking a non-risk risk is simply un-American, but it appears that that is the basis for our new pirate Republic.

The CEO's/CFO/COO's of these firms need to see jail time and serious financial penalties. No, they shouldn't be allowed to keep the bonus, their Mercedes, gold Rolex or country estate. Failure should not be rewarded. The personal financial ruin of a few of these financial fools should serve as a wake-up call to those who survive. Failure should have consequences.

You know, this is all like a bad Hollywood movie. I mean, We KNOW the black guy always gets killed first, and the Pilot is always late- and ours suddenly doesn't believe in BAILOUTS? Chuck Norris lost interest when his man failed to win the party nomination, so we don't even have a main protagonist, just this new love interest who can see Russia from her house. Well rooty toot toot. I can see Mexico from mine and there's a lot more hostile foot traffic.
In anycase, I'm letting this thread keep twisting until we have enough rope to tie a knot at the end and all HANG ON!