In 1982, while stationed in Fort Stewart, Ga. there were 5 or 6 NightHawk helicopters flying no communication, low formation night manoeuvres from Fort Stewart to Fort Campbell, Ky. Some time just after takeoff the last heli fell out of the sky in a wooded area. The fort was notified only after the other arrived at home base and the search was on. Three bodies were brought into trauma and a forth was taken straight to the morgue. There were multiple internal injuries ie; liver lacerations, ruptured spleens, punctured lungs the usual as well as multiple fractures. The four brought in one maintained vital sings for a few short hours and then all were gone. The one individual brought to the morgue was twisted like a pretzel and I do not mean any disrespect. I heard on the news today about another heli crash without survivers. I have read on this site that one has a chance of surviving a plane crash, and have seen other on tv who have survived planes but I haven't heard of anyone walking away from a heli crash. What are your chances of making it out of a such an event? Any precautions to take to improve your chances? Several of you work in SAR, many of you may even fly in a heli. How do you equip yourself to survive in this situation? <br> Thanks Rick<br>Being challenged in life is inevitable, being defeated is optional<br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br>

My first duty station was Kodiak Airstation Alaska. I was a 'Blackshoe' vs. 'Brownshoe' or rated aircrewman. The Coast Guard being what it always was, and is ( small) I wound up flying many routine and even some SAR missions. We had the venerable C-130 and the HH3 and HH52 amphibian helicopters. By their very design fixed wing aircraft are more rugged as a rule. I flew with a Senior Chief Aviation Machinist Mate. he was in a helicopter that suffered a catastrophic rotor assembly failure. He simply flung himself out in the TUC ( time of usefull consciousness, aviation term for the seconds before blacking out) before the entire ship and remaining crew plummeted in . He told me point blank after I completed all the ops. manuals " If you can bail out ,bail out and feed my dogs." Helicopters are like all designs, there are some good ones and some that seem plagued with trouble. I f I had to utilize a helicopter again, Id check out the model, carrier's safety record and immediate conditions for flying. Only the military HAS to fly. There has never been a civilian flight that HAD to take off.Of course, you could hire Doug and boost his confidence by rubbing your altoid tin like a worry stone LOL<br><br>

Although I I write this, the news is telling of another fatal fire fighting helicopter crash, people do survive crashes all the time. As a career National Park Service employee, I took several crash survival courses. In general, no not wear synthetics, especially underwear - a nomex flight suit and gloves are real good items. I remember a very vivid video, debriefing a heli crash survivor at Yosemite. This person mentioned having absolutely nothing for survival gear after the crash. Since getting out of the bird can often be a problem, and you may never have the opportunity to grab your stuff, bulky survival packs are out - this would be a perfect application for Doug's Altiod tin. Most military folks fly wearing a survival vest that, even loaded, is fairly svelte.<br><br>There are crashes and there are CRASHES. I have flown in a fairly wide variety of both military and civilian choppers over the years - I never declined a flight that was in the line of business, but I never took a frivolous or unnecessary flight either.<br><br>

I hope this doesn't sound dumb, but when I read about bailing out, I pictured Bugs Bunny jumping out of the plain just before it hit the ground. Did he have a parachute or was he too close to the ground for it to be any use? I watched too many cartoons when I was young...<br><br> Rick<br>Being challenged I life is inevitable, being defeat is optional. <br><br>

Yes, he had a parachute on. this was over water. Having made one impromptu rescue jump well before the current rescue swimmer program, I would rather hit soft earth. I know several military personel that survived low level bailouts and even partial chute deployment failures. Thats why I mess with vintage sailplanes. They're so slow Im tempted to get out and push! Aircrash survival is seemingly fickle. One person survives while people sitting nearby perish. At best you can improve the small items, like proper clothing and gear and hope they add up to one big thing-survival. <br><br>

What do you mean by "crash"? There are crashes, and there are crashes. CFIT (controlled flight into terrain) is very different from a forced landing, a precautionary landing, a ditching at sea, a groundloop during take-off, landing short, landing long, etc.<br><br>When I was stationed at CFB Shearwater, Nova Scotia, I was in the Ops Centre when a Sea King helicopter flying a naval patrol sent in a "Pan Pan" which shortly thereafter escalated into a "Mayday". They were having engine problems and the pilot elected to make a controlled ditching at sea. Everyone on board was rescued without (much) incident.<br><br>On the other hand, a helicopter that strikes a high-tension line 100 feet in the air and gets the wire tangled in its rotors is toast.<br><br>Deciding whether fixed-wing is safer than whirly-wing is like arguing whether single-engine is safer than twin-engine. Single-engine advocates point out that engine failure in a twin is twice as likely, and point to the number of accidents where twin-engines have crashed after losing one engine. A crash due to engine-out in a twin is more likely to result in a stall-spin (where the airplane "corkscrews" in), rather than a forced landing. (where the pilot makes a controlled landing without power). But Twin-engine advocates point out that most engine failures in a twin don't result in crashes at all, and so don't show up in the statistics.<br><br>Similarly, there are situations where a helicopter will be much safer to fly than a fixed wind aircraft. A helicopter that encounters deteriorating weather will often be able to land in a nearby clearing and wait it out; a fixed-wing aircraft will usually have to keep flying until the pilot can find an airport (or at least a large open field). Similarly, a heli that loses an engine at altitude can autorotate safely into any decent-sized clearing; a fixed-wing can glide, but may well shear off the undercarriage, hit a ditch, or run into the trees at the far end.<br><br>IMO, there are far too many variables to determine which is "safer".<br><br>Earth Wolf - 200 hour Private Pilot (fixed-wing, single-engine, land); professional mathematician with a little training in statistics.<br><br>

I guess what I'm talking about is a "toasted crash." We never did find out why the heli went down. All I do know is that I don't feel that the crew had a soft landing. In 1999 we had a medivac crew went down on a return trip home and all was lost. This crew had flown many pts. to level one trauma centers for use and they were an excellent crew, pilot and nurses. <br> I guess my main concern is I place my pts. on these rides to help them and I'm afraid the statistics are going to catch up to us. <br> It's about time for operation green sweep, marijuana raids, and there is choppers all over the place spotting the patches for the ground crews. These cowboys get so happy they'll top your trees for you. <br> Thanks for all the input, Rick<br>Being challenged in life is inevitable, being defeated is optional.<br><br>

Actually, the most common cause of general aviation accidents are pilot error. The most common cause of engine failure in single or multi-engine airplanes (or probably cars for that matter) is fuel starvation/exhaustion. Running out of gas will shut down any number of engines. The major risk of a twin engine airplane is loss of control of the airplane with engine loss on climb or during approach at slow airspeeds. This is occurs as a result of drag from the dead engine, torque from the operating engine both act to force a "VMC Roll" which at low altitude is fatal.<br><br>Military aircraft (helicopters especially) do a lot of low-level flight. This low level flight is often at night with night vision goggles enabling obstacle avoidance and high speeds. Helicopters don't do well with engine failures at low altitudes. Engine failures are treated by autorotation, trading altitude for rotor speed that will cushion the landing. A low altitude engine failure is a bad thing.<br><br>Any aircraft that loses power at night is in a serious hurt. The stress of a real (once in a lifetime) engine failure is bad enough, requiring prompt action. At night, there is little opportunity, if any, to find a suitable landing field, exclude hazards (wires, trees, fences, etc) and execute a safe landing that would be difficult under the best of circumstances.<br><br>The point is that all forms of transportation have their own risks and benefits. I would prefer to fly than drive.<br><br><br>Jeffery S. Anderson, M.D.<br><br>

Military folks on flight status are not permitted to wear to wear synthetics....cotton, wool, leather, and NOMEX (yes, I know that NOMEX doesn't grow on trees!) are the rule. There are frequent injuries due to melting synthetics (rubber, latex, nylon, etc) in waistbands and bra's burning the wearer in a flash fire, which is what nomex will protect you from.<br><br>I can speak to the military SRU-21 vest and the relative lack of utility of the components. Issued, it doesn't provide much in the line of supplies. I augmented mine significantly.<br><br>Jeff Anderson, M.D.<br>MAJ, MC, FS, USAR (ret)<br><br>Jeffery S. Anderson, M.D.<br><br>

Having spent a better part of 8-years in the US Army flying to and fro in helicopters; I can say with all honesty that the chance for survival on "auto rotation failure" is pretty slim. That slim margin would be doubled when flying in the Blackhawk (Jet) helicopter.<br><br>I'd rather ride it out, because since luck would have it that I'm on a AC that just broke in flight; then my luck is gonna be even worst if I jump out before it hits the ground/water/mountain/building...<br><br>It's kinda' like the USAF Pilot standing in front of the Board Of Inquiry answering why he crashed their 2-Million $$ AC..<br><br>"Well Sirs; ya' see..I ran outta' air-speed and altitude at exactly the same time..!) LOL!!<br><br>During the Grenade Invasion (Ranger Batt (ABN) 1/75th) I saw the end result of a couple of chopper crashes, and they weren't a pretty site. The thought of bailing out while in flight, or even as the ground comes rushing up is pretty scarry. My first instinct would be to think about that massive LAWN MOWER blade that's probably gonna slice my head off.<br><br>