Are kerosene heaters the best, or only source of heat in an emergency?

Someone posted something about testing out kerosene heaters and lamps on the long-term prep forum, and it got me thinkin'.

I've been through a blizzard with the power out and no source of heat. At earliest opportunity, purchased a kerosene heater. Used it a bunch of times, but even with the window cracked open a little, it was smelly and seemed dangerous.

Now I have a fireplace, but live in a townhouse, where space and association rules make it impossible to store more than a little firewood or Duraflame logs.

The winters here are cold, and ice storms with power outages happen regularly.

Are there any other practical sources of heat? (unit and fuel easily stored, not too dangerous re fumes and tip-over risk, etc.)

if it were me, i'd go out and pick up a small propane 1lb cannister heater. The canisters are light, and easily stored.
Unlike kerosene which can spill, leak etc. Also kerosene has an odor when it burns, propane has little odor.

peace
al

Given limited storage space, kerosene probably gives you the most BTUs for the least hazard.

But you're right about the ventilation issues. At least crack the windows open and have a good CO detector.

Seems you should bring the issue up with your neighbours and the association. If everybody faces the same risk, perhaps some accommodations can be made. Freezing pipes etc. are everybody's concern.

If you're on natural gas for heating, be aware that the gas usually keeps flowing even when the power is off. (These guys are mostly independently powered -- they use jet engines to drive their compressors, running of course on natural gas.) Consider a gas fireplace that doesn't require line voltage, or get a generator to run your furnace / fridge / freezer.

My 2¢.

That's a tough one living in a townhouse. Any chance of storing a few Duraflame logs under a bed / a closet / attic crawlspace? You already have the fireplace, so you might as well use it (Though I'd prefer a wood-burning stove). I doubt if your association rules will allow either kero or propane to be stored on the property. Do you have a propane grill out back? Grab that bottle if you have to. Just don't store propane inside! Also, fire extinguishers and CO detectors - a battery powered one.
If you must, can you block off a few doors and live in fewer rooms, heating only those rooms? Let the uninhabited rooms get cold. If you're friendly with other people in the building, ask them over. A few people will heat up a room with just their body heat. I suppose they could drag over a mattress and some blankets.

If you already have a fireplace, consider converting it to a gas stove.

We had a fireplace in the middle of our living room which we replaced with a Vermont Castings gas stove hooked to a thermostat and *removed* the electric forced air units in our whole downstairs with the exception of the outlying rooms.

It now pretty much heats the entire house.

You could probably hardwire it to the gas main and have an aux natural gas tank.

And it looks nice and I don't have to cut or haul firewood and no firewood debris.

Oh, and our heating bill went down.

-john



(ironically, I didn't have a picture handy of the front of the unit)

There are no good answers to this.

The association has a right to tell you to have little or no alternative fuel sources. These fuels are potentially dangerous and could do a lot of damage or kill people if it got out of hand. Just as a passenger in a car you are driving at a dangerous speed can demand you drive safely. The association has a right and an obligation to other tenets to have some rules that protect the collective.

This does not sit well with the person that is preparedness minded to have to deal with this, but no one is making you live there.

I would not want to trust other residents I did not know to act right with dangerous fuels in a dwelling that is attached to my home. In a single dwelling we have the freedom to do as we see, but not when it is an apartment or condo that is attached to other peoples homes.


How to solve it?

If you have a gas or propane stove (or put one in) this could work.

Electric heaters with a large generator set outside may work. But then you have fuel to store for the generator.

Or you could move.

Small propane wall-mounted heaters that don't require electrical power are good, reliable and safe. For fairly normal living in short-term situations where fuel use isn't an issue these are a good option.

As things get more desperate and fuel gets dearer I use other options. I keep a small propane catalyst heater that runs off the wide one-pound bottles handy. I can get about six hours per bottle and keep about a dozen on hand. These will also run a one-mantle lantern that puts out about the same light as a 75w bulb and a single burner stove so I can do some light cooking, make coffee and heat soup.

I mention the stove and lantern because both put out a good amount of heat.

Now, down here in Florida, it doesn't get all that cold for all that long but cold here is usually wet-cold and with wind. Also I am sensitive to cold. Sixty degrees Fahrenheit is flannel and jacket weather to me. I can handle heat in the high 90s with relative humidity near 100% but acclimated to that has a price. A price a pay when it gets cold.

The plan is that as it gets colder and the utilities fail we progressively retreat to a small interior room. This room, next to the bathroom, gets extra protection by rigging blankets or plastic over the door and any windows. All of the surrounding rooms get a similar treatment and all the most used travel routes have doors and/or blankets placed to make air locks.

A small, well insulated, with a couple of people inside and protected from losing heat by multiple doors tends to stay pretty warm without much heat. One or two candles or oil lamps pretty well does the trick but some thought has to be given to ventilation.

Colder temperatures, less well insulated or larger rooms, fewer people may require more heat. The small space heater, stove and lantern can be brought in as needed.

In the field, or if things go bad in a big way at home, there is always getting into a poncho or modified trash bag. With your legs tucked under your enclosure you place a candle or small oil lamp. Take reasonable care not to catch your poncho on fire. In such a small space a candle flame provides a lot of heat. This puts you into your own private warm environment and protected from any wind. This is sometimes a much more efficient use of fuel and time than trying to assemble and light a conventional fire.

"...I have a fireplace..."

Most fireplaces are very inefficient, wasting a large percentage of the heat generated by the burning wood. An insert would make a huge difference, but only if you can have a supply of wood on hand.

A propane powered heater such as the Mr Heater will help, and they have a low oxygen level sensor that will turn them off if necessary.

A propane powered catalytic heater might do the trick, but indoors I would only use the one pound throw-away canisters. If you go for a refillable bottle (like those used on a BBQ), leave it outdoors and run a long hose in. And I would turn it off before going to sleep.

For a small area, you can take a one pound coffee can (a metal one of course), stuff a roll of toilet paper (minus the core) into it, then pour a bottle of rubbing alcohol in. Light it and you get heat. When the TP starts to turn brown, snuff it out, let it cool, then add more alcohol and relight. Be advise that you can't see the alcohol burning in daylight, and for sure don't knock it over!!!

"If you already have a fireplace, consider converting it to a gas stove."

I would have to ditto this comment I have a gas fireplace and this past winter the power went out for three and a half hours
(not much I know) but DW and DD had the living room and kitchen blocked off and kept it pretty warm when DS and I returned from the store.

Mike

Hmm, DFW is talking about blizzards, cold winters and ice storms. Probably not Florida :-) though the same principles apply. Sounds to me like it'll take a lot of BTUs to keep warm and protect the property (frozen pipes cause a huge, nasty flood mess when they burst).

I believe the Mr. Heater non-vented wall mount units are legal under many U.S. building codes. (Not in Canada, though.) Oxygen sensors and a ruby catalyst apparently knock the CO hazard way down. So if enough propane could be safely stored, that would be enough to heat a basement room. If upper-level water pipes could be depressurized and gravity drained, and RV antifreeze put in the sink/toilet/shower traps, that could go a long way to preventing water damage.

Idea: there are low-scent versions of kerosene available. Worth a try. Be aware it will gel up in extreme cold.

Idea 2: Could the kerosene heater be placed on/in/near the fireplace, so you could open the flue slightly and lose some of the exhaust fumes? Just a notion.

Fireplace inserts are pretty effective. Pretty ones are pricey. Tent stoves are smaller and cheaper, could work similarly, and run on wood scraps, corrugated cardboard, or newspapers. My brother built his own fireplace insert out of a 40 gallon water heater tank, figuring that the further it stuck out of the fireplace, the more effcient it would be in heating the room. Efficient? Yes. Attractive? Not so much. But a smaller version of this, with a 3-6" galvanized flue stuck up the chimney, might be more efficient and be easier to fuel than an open fireplace. haven't tried it, beyond the water heater fiasco.

I agree, if you have the fuel available, even an improvised insert will be more efficient than a masonry fireplace.

But: I've seen some dampers that would make it really hard to get a pipe up the flue. Best to check before relying on it.

If the pipe fits, some fibreglass insulation to pack around the pipe and seal off the rest of the flue would be highly worthwhile.

A couple of random thoughts.

1) "Stoves" are hugely more efficient than "fireplaces". So, if gas turns out to be a nonstarter for some reason, consider replacing your existing wood fireplace with a wood stove. Vermont Castings (no affiliation) has some very efficient ones. I've used their wood stoves as well and found them to be great units.

1a) Getting the smallest, high efficiency wood stove you can, potentially will allow you to stretch your wood supplies.

2) If you switch to gas, or if you plan on improvising heating in some way, get some carbon monoxide alarms. You can get combo fire alarm carbon monoxide alarms to replace existing fire alarms, as well as stand along units. You can also get combo gas / carbon monoxide detectors.

-john

We've been going over this currently for our new house.

Our thoughts are this.

The house has a wood stove currently, and enough fire wood on the property awaiting splitting for maybe 2 winters (were in CA so ~5mo winters). We want something that we can 'set' too... so our thoughts.

1. Propane stove that works w/out electricity (less efficient) but will heat the bottom floor none the less w/out a blower motor. (Cost: $1500-$2500 for a nice unit)

2. Pellet stove. Requires very little electricity. 2000w honda generator can run ~15hrs on 1 fuel tank (<2g I believe) and is almost silent. (Cost: $1500-$2500 for a nice unit + $800-1200 for a generator and electrics).

3. Central AC/Heat plumbed to bottom story only (2 rooms, great room and kitchen). We don't need AC but the AC/heat units don't cost much more to add AC. I haven't checked efficiency compared to a propane stove but this may be another option as it can easily be installed on a roof.

4. Keep the Wood stove and get a small/cheap propane ventless high efficient 24,000 BTU "fire place". These are <$500 and may provide great additional heat, and probably enough to keep entire house comfortable (Where we are it doesn't get colder than mid/low 20s most of time high 20's low 30's at night). These are currently not for sale in CA so I would have to arrange importing one.

Ideally I`d love to have a pellet stove next to a wood stove but 2 stoves may look very funny. This way I could use the pellet 99% of the time and the other 1% for power outages I could use wood or run the 1000w honda. It would probably be pretty easy to tie the exhaust vent into both too.

There's more options but those are what we've looked at so far.

In general:
If there is someone in the area that makes them, a custom insert can be built to match the fireplace. If it were to be the main source of heat, get one with a fan. No modifications required especially if there is a blower system already around the fireplace (heatalator(sp?)). It can be rewired to power the stove blower.

If the fireplace draws well, effective isn't the word for a good one. A good load of wood before bed will give you coals in the morning. I don't remember if we stoked it in the morning or after I got in from school. You just have to close the lower vents and almost close the sliding damper that should be built into the top of the insert. Not closing the vents/damper will have you sitting on the porch with the front door open (once it is lit, they burn HOT).

Specific to the question
What are the association rules regarding propane tanks? Is gas service readily available or do you already have gas?

Ventless gas logs have five primary advantages over wood: You don't have to deal with getting a wood pile built up for the season (and store it). No mess from hauling in a handcart of wood a day (this is if it were your main heat source like ours). No wood ashes to clean out (frequency depends on type of wood, size of fire, & design of fire place). The chimney can be sealed such that no heat is lost.

I've lived with all three (fireplace with heatalator(sp?), same fireplace w/ custom built insert, & gas logs) and a free standing stove. Even though I miss having the fireplace with the insert, It doesn't beat not having the associated mess or having to get wood in on a regular basis. Modifying the existing fireplace to run a stove may change the way it draws. The one I've had experience with drew poorly. I think it was because it had a long flat section between the stove & the wall. It can make the difference between lighting large split wood with newspaper & a few scraps of wood and getting frustrated & using a propane torch.

Agreed.


No disagreement here but I'll bet the person with the questionable/forbidden fuel would be very popular during an event where heat was needed, to the point that unwelcome guests would likely need to be turned away.

Face it, in the eyes of the unprepared, we're all dangerous nut cases until something bad happens, like the guy played by Michael Gross in Tremors.

Quadra-Fire has a high-end pellet stove with 12v hookup for power outages that has my attention now Wish it was cheaper.

Hi: From Saskatchewan, Canada. Work in heavy construction and do the safety planning for remote areas. We can get down to -50degrees celcuis, and deadly with wind up. Blizzard in 2007 was a good wakeup call for us, as we had men out in it. As a result, every vehicle has cold weather survivial gear such as the hand and foot warmers, body warmers. I carry and the one pound propane heaters. Propane has a tendency to gell at such cold temperatures, so would need to ensure you fire up before it gets to bottom temperature range. The little gel stoves that backpackers use is a good source of heat, inexpenseive, and lasts for about 12 hours per can. The pccket warmers can be stuck in sleeping bags, and if you put them back into an airtight bag, may be able to deactivate them and reuse. (provided they are air-activated). A portable generator is a good idea, provided it is quiet and you vent the fumes outside, perhaps by using something similar to a dryer vent, like mechanic shops use. CO dector good idea in any case. Our Canadian tire stores sell battery packs that you can run a heater from, (electric plug in). It is pre-charged and kept on standby to run computer equipment and applicances. Would do the trick until it ran out of jpower, though some can be recharged using solar panels.
I have kids, so I make sure that we have plenty of different heat sources int he event of emergency, and we do have alot of heat emergencies these days. A cigeratte plug blanket is also good, and you can use a "power box" type of set up very safely when required. Works great for the car and in emergency road situations. I also used the kerosense heater last year, and smelled really bad. Need to vent windows, and someone awake to monitor.
Bottom line is, carry a bit of everything. It really hurts to be very cold, and even bags of tea lights can help to prevent cold weather emergencies from taking you down.
By the way, tea lights are pretty good too, provided you take the proper percautions. Everything takes planning, though it all definitely worth the work! Good luck, I am doing the same thing here now. I am looking for as many sources of heating my home as safely as possible.

Hey, brodie, welcome aboard, and greetings from an Alberta neighbour.

Looking forward to more details about your safety planning for remote construction crews. 'Boots on the ground' stories carry a lot of weight around here.

Cheers,
Doug

Welcome to the boards, Brodie!

Jeez, -50C sure separates the wheat from the chaff, doesn't it?

I don't think there's much better than multiple options. Backup to your backups, as a certain monster fighter said.

Sue

Indeed! For all you dataholics, a table of snow shelter temperatures I got from an old instructor shows:

Outside Inside Conditions
Temp (F) Temp (F)

+4 +8 No door - unoccupied several hours
-2 +7 No door - unoccupied several hours
-7 +14 Canvas door - unoccupied
-14 +21 Unoccupied 2 hours - 1 candle - door
-14 +24 Half-hour occupied - 2 candles
-49 +20 1 occupant - no heat
-48 +23 2 occupants - 2 candles / 15 minutes
-55 +19 2 occupants - overnight - no heat

The only citation is "Scandinavian Airlines: Survival Manual"

Also, when using a chemical heat pack, optimum placement when sleeping is probably over the femoral artery.