Anyone who wants to show how to build a debris hut can probably just ask around and find someone who needs some trees pruned.

Sue

Seems like fairly reasonable attitudes on both sides of the issue, here. I don't see anybody taking things to either extreme - which is good. Like dweste says, it is an ages old debate and a proper balance is probably the most important thing.

I do have somewhat of an objection to the "leave no trace" concept. I'm definitely opposed to anyone trashing the place. But I have come to the realization that simple traces of human habitation or presence is not a blemish on the face of the wilderness. I now see traces of human activity as an integral part of nature. Mankind has always inhabited the face of the earth and left his mark upon it. Finding traces of an old campsite is just as much a natural occurrence as is finding an old fox den, an elk wallow, or trees cut down by a beaver. Actually, finding traces of old human habitation can be one of the most fascinating parts of exploring the wild places - things like finding arrowheads, indian signal trees, cave drawings, or thousand year old portage paths. Now obviously, as I stated above, there is a need for balance in all things. I wouldn't use this argument as an excuse for people to leave garbage lay around, carve their initial in every other beech tree, or in any other way be sloppy their caretaking of the creation. My only point is just that evidence of human presence and traces of responsible human use of our natural resources shouldn't automatically be considered a blemish on the environment. Mankind is an integral part of nature, not just an outside observer. Actually, an ecosystem without any trace of man would be most UNnatural.

Very good discussion amongst all, I think.

Ding-ding-ding! We have a winner! The debris shelter is on my land, and it is not illegal nor unethical nor evil for a family to practice shelter building on their OWN LAND. In fact, I would be allowed by law to cut down a bunch of trees and use them to build a cabin (helluva shelter building exercise, there!)...Oh, actually we have a cabin there, built of WOOD! Not deadfall! Where are all the trees now? Oh, that's right, more trees grow every year. It's really weird. When one dies from old age...er, being viciously cut down, more pop up right by the dead one. It's like some type of circle of life thing or something. We've also been known to (gasp) cut down a tree for Christmas every year. Sometimes even two (for a less-advantaged home) HORRORS! Oh, I'm sorry, did I spell Christmas out???? How offensive! But we do have a pagan rite before we do the evil deed, with offerings of herbal essence and smoked peyote embers cast to the four winds. Praise Gaia!

And about 10 years ago, the loggers came through and CLEAR CUT about 10 acres of our 40 acres. I bet they wore eye patches and have the number 666 tattooed in their scalp. HORRORS! To provide wood for homes to keep people warm! Evil, I say, evil! Spike the trees, sit in them, do what you must to protect the innocent boughs from the wrath of the chainsaws! Except...hmmm... that clearcut swath is now the NICEST LOOKING FOREST ON MY LAND. Just like before, more trees appeared out of nowhere (must have been some sweet environmentalists dressed as dryads and sprites who came at midnight to sprinkle fairy dust and lodgepole pine cones) I SWEAR I didn't plant them. We've been trying to keep a clear space of grass open for years, and y'know, those damn trees just keep encroaching! It's like they *want* to grow and reproduce or something. Weird. If someone can please explain how/why these trees keep coming back and growing in ever greater numbers on my land, I'd love to know. I was taught at PC university that whenever a tree is cut down, a silent scream pierces the air, life ends and the forest dies. I actually heard a scream once when I was cutting one down, but it was me when I dropped the chainsaw on my blasted foot.

Oh, and the ridgepole should have been longer. (To keep it on a survival forum thread)

What we continue to have here is a failure to communicate.

No assumption about public versus private land changes the debate in any significant way regarding what kids should be taught about cutting live branches of trees. In general, respect for the environment is respect for the environment.

The activity of shelter building can be entirely admirable. The debate is how should kids be taught to do it. I say, no live branches should be cut unless there is a great need, and kids should be taught why.

Kids grow up to be developers, executives in resource companies, and politicians with a say in how we deal with the environment. I hope most of them will bring respect for the environment, and our dependency on it, to their decision-making. It is never too soon for them to begin their education.

I make no comment about religious observances, and would suggest playing the "religion card" is not germane to the overall debate.

Teaching a kid how to make a shelter with a few live branches is no more going to make him an evil tree hacker on the 10 most wanted enviro-terrorist list then it is to say that teaching a kid how to start a campfire is going to go make him an arsonist that burns down houses. It’s silly to say or think this. Get a grip people!




It’s amazing how well the tree-huggers have infested mainstream people and made otherwise normal thinking people look at a person cutting a few branches as out to destroy the environment. Greenpeace has been very successful in programming how many of you think.

Um, pain?

-Blast

"Leave no trace."

I've driven 200 miles out of my way to look at Anasazi rock houses, rock paintings and Register Cliff (near Guernsey, WY), where many of the pioneers carved their names, initials and dates they passed on their way to CA, OR, etc.

I've also stopped at campgrounds and walked through with a plastic bag, picking up the debris of previous campers. Should I have left it as I found it?

"Pack out your trash" would seem to be a better motto to pass along.

Sue

"I've never understood adding insult to injury. Why not just add more injury?" www.choppingblock.org

[quote=BobS
It’s amazing how well the tree-huggers have infested mainstream people and made otherwise normal thinking people look at a person cutting a few branches as out to destroy the environment. Greenpeace has been very successful in programming how many of you think.
[/quote]

And so, DING-DING-DING, for you faithful readers, begins round two at square one. Just go to the top of the thread and read again, if you are so inclined.

2,000 B.C., somewhere in the Southwest: Anasazi Dad comes home after a long day of hunting. Wife is there with hands on hips. "What's wrong?" he asks. Wife:"Yourson's in trouble." Husband:"What did he do this time?" Wife: "He was caught painting the canyon walls again." Husband:"Oh Geez...he's a boy, honey! I did a few rock paintings in my teenage years; I turned out o.k." Wife:"He's doing the Crouching Flutist again. You knowthat's a well known gang symbol. You make him scrub those horrid pictures off the walls tonight!" Husband: "O.k. o.k....hey what's for dinner? Can we have peyote casserole again?"